OT .. Thanks Forty & Frank ...

On Sat, 19 Apr 2008 03:16:47 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Apr 18, 9:27*am, wrote:
On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 15:07:23 GMT, "Larry L"

wrote:
I stopped on the same bike
ride yesterday and chatted with a woman about her goats ( lots of goats
around here, more and more each year ) and she was telling me goat meat is
available there ... I've never tried it ... kinda scary thinking what I
might actually end up with shopping for goat meat in a language I can't
really speak ... ah life's little adventures G

FWIW, there's a BIG difference between _goat_ (as in "old") and cabrito
(kid, young goat) - sorta like lamb vs mutton. *I like cabrito and lamb,
not so much goat and mutton. *Both can be had in a number of
cultures/cuisines and most variants can be had all over the US, most
readily found, IME, in Mexican (cabrito) and Jamaican (jerk goat, etc.)
restaurants, and as Brazilian restaurants become more popular, you might
find it there. *Unless you like organ meats, stay away from any Mexican
cabrito "stews" - they don't all contain such, but some do, and until
you know what's what... *IAC, and IMO, cabrito "al pastor" (grilled,
BBQ) is best anyway.

TC,
R

I don't see cabrito on the Mexican menues up here, not even much in
the Yakima Valley. You do see a hell of a lot more goat being raised
on the latino mini-farms. What is more available, but often not on the
written menu is "barrego," generally cooked till its falling off the
bone.

Dave

I have seen a number of places where they only do it on particular days.
It also may be unavailable due to a lack of potential sales rather than
a lack of familiarity or desire - ask around. Obviously, it isn't
something that can be "made to order" like much of the typical "Mexican"
menu in the US (I realize things like "refried" beans, etc. can't be
"made to order" either, but such is not quite the same as cabrito) and
as such, it might not be something they feel they can sell out each day
or even once a week. Again, I'd ask around.

It's pretty common in the US southwest, esp. Texas, and in Florida,
there are both Pan-American and Jamaican/"Island" sources (both kid and
goat), as there are in the urban NE. I'd suspect, but don't know or
care to find out, that California is probably similar, esp. from Mexican
sources. IAC, if you wish to try it, can't find it locally, but have a
grill, it isn't all that difficult. If you've done a roast
(butterflied) piglet or even a whole split and grilled bird, you're good
to go.

TC,
R

On Apr 19, 3:16*am, wrote:
On Apr 18, 9:27*am, wrote:





On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 15:07:23 GMT, "Larry L"

wrote:
I stopped on the same bike
ride yesterday and chatted with a woman about her goats ( lots of goats
around here, more and more each year ) and she was telling me goat meat is
available there ... I've never tried it ... kinda scary thinking what I
might actually end up with shopping for goat meat in a language I can't
really speak ... ah life's little adventures G

FWIW, there's a BIG difference between _goat_ (as in "old") and cabrito
(kid, young goat) - sorta like lamb vs mutton. *I like cabrito and lamb,
not so much goat and mutton. *Both can be had in a number of
cultures/cuisines and most variants can be had all over the US, most
readily found, IME, in Mexican (cabrito) and Jamaican (jerk goat, etc.)
restaurants, and as Brazilian restaurants become more popular, you might
find it there. *Unless you like organ meats, stay away from any Mexican
cabrito "stews" - they don't all contain such, but some do, and until
you know what's what... *IAC, and IMO, cabrito "al pastor" (grilled,
BBQ) is best anyway.

TC,
R

I don't see cabrito on the Mexican menues up here, not even much in
the Yakima Valley. You do see a hell of a lot more goat being raised
on the latino mini-farms. What is more available, but often not on the
written menu is "barrego," generally cooked till its falling off the
bone.

Dave- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Correction: Its "Borrego," and its a lamb shank, not goat. Sometimes
the shoulder is also called borrego. Anyway its a great way to do
lamb.

Dave

On Sat, 19 Apr 2008 10:59:48 -0700 (PDT), wrote:



I don't see cabrito on the Mexican menues up here, not even much in
the Yakima Valley. You do see a hell of a lot more goat being raised
on the latino mini-farms. What is more available, but often not on the
written menu is "barrego," generally cooked till its falling off the
bone.

Dave- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Correction: Its "Borrego," and its a lamb shank, not goat. Sometimes
the shoulder is also called borrego. Anyway its a great way to do
lamb.

Dave

Oh, Lordy...I'm not going back through the whole barbacoa argument....

If you are interested, just Google "borrego sheep spanish" and "spanish
cordero."

TC,
R

Larry L wrote:
"jeff miller" wrote

. i can't imagine doing

anything intentionally that hurt my dog.





As rdean would say, this might not help

but a true story that I get a kick out of

I got a call, and was asked, "Are you a dog trainer?"

"Yes, what can I do for you?"

"Well my yellow Lab climbs up on the counter when ever I'm cooking and eats
all our food. She just ruined a whole roast. How can I stop her?"

Me, "That is not at all my type of training but I can offer some simple
advice. When she climbs up there, say 'no' very firmly and do something
that she finds very unpleasant, swat her butt HARD, for instance. At this
point it has to be more unpleasant than the food is pleasant."

The female caller, tone indignant, "I could NEVER do anything to hurt my dog
!!"


Me, again, " Well, in that case I suggest you put the food on the floor and
save her the trouble of all that climbing."

Click .. somehow we were cut off .. surely she didn't hang up on me after I
gave her such sensible, and honest, advice ? G



the loud voice thing has always worked for me... but, no hang up here. i
don't think the butt swat routine on an isolated or single purpose basis
is the same as the ECs or salt shot, butt g rachel and i aren't
trainers or very good parents. sadie is spoiled but the most lovable dog
i've ever been owned by.

jeff

rw wrote:

Larry L wrote:

"jeff miller" wrote

. i can't imagine doing

anything intentionally that hurt my dog.





As rdean would say, this might not help

but a true story that I get a kick out of

I got a call, and was asked, "Are you a dog trainer?"

"Yes, what can I do for you?"

"Well my yellow Lab climbs up on the counter when ever I'm cooking and
eats all our food. She just ruined a whole roast. How can I stop her?"

Me, "That is not at all my type of training but I can offer some
simple advice. When she climbs up there, say 'no' very firmly and
do something that she finds very unpleasant, swat her butt HARD, for
instance. At this point it has to be more unpleasant than the food
is pleasant."

The female caller, tone indignant, "I could NEVER do anything to hurt
my dog !!"


Me, again, " Well, in that case I suggest you put the food on the
floor and save her the trouble of all that climbing."

Click .. somehow we were cut off .. surely she didn't hang up on me
after I gave her such sensible, and honest, advice ? G


Great story.

Some people have this dog worship thing. It drives me nuts.

In my experience, dogs need to know the rules -- the reasonable rules.
Once they know them, they'll obey them. They are creatures of habit.
They need structure. It's the owners job to give them that predictable
structure. Then they'll be happy and well mannered.

I used a training collar for the first time this spring, on my
girlfriend's dog, a totally (to that point) unmanageable Anatolian
Sheperd Winnemucca Pound Pup. The dog was impossible. Whenever he saw
cows or elk, off he'd go on a wild and illegal and dangerous romp.

The training collar (i.e. shock collar) was a one-time fix for a solid
come/stay. It was like magic.


shock on...no doubt, infliction of physical pain can be a great teacher
and molder of behavior and thought (and not just in dogs)...simply not
my approach. ... i do note the "invisible fence" business is thriving
in these parts though.

jeff

Charlie Choc wrote:

On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 22:19:11 -0400, jeff miller
wrote:


jeff (btw...despite my initial plans otherwise, i've succumbed to the
troutforce of montana yet again, and hope to be there july 11-18 this
year. if you'll be in the area of reynolds or west yellowstone, perhaps
we can share a meal if not a creek. i'll be camping somedamnwhere. the
slide inn has shifted focus and now caters to wealthy republicans. g)


I'll be out there all of June, but will be back home by July. I'll leave plenty
of fish for you. ;-)

i'll be interested in hearing your take on the conditions in june. i
remember one trip in july when runoff was still a problem on some
streams...sorry to hear you won't stiil be around. i'll no doubt
require a bit of stewardship in getting the camping thing down...esp.
the hot shower part. g

i'm flying in to salt lake city, renting a tiny car, and driving up.
any suggestions about the route based on your experience?

jeff

"rw" wrote in message
m...
Great story.

Some people have this dog worship thing. It drives me nuts.

In my experience, dogs need to know the rules -- the reasonable rules.
Once they know them, they'll obey them. They are creatures of habit. They
need structure. It's the owners job to give them that predictable
structure. Then they'll be happy and well mannered.
I used a training collar for the first time this spring, on my
girlfriend's dog, a totally (to that point) unmanageable Anatolian Sheperd
Winnemucca Pound Pup. The dog was impossible. Whenever he saw cows or elk,
off he'd go on a wild and illegal and dangerous romp.

The training collar (i.e. shock collar) was a one-time fix for a solid
come/stay. It was like magic.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

The best training that I have personally experienced was with the Lenoir
Police Departments K9 Training Unit. They put on a Civilians K9 Training
course once a year. The course is designed for discipline purposes only--no
attack training.

When I first brought Bear home to mother--after I had to putdown
Beau-re-Guard, the love of mine and mother's lives for over 12 years--Bear
would run from me every time I call him to me. He would bolt after deer,
when we took our hikes on the mountain. The LPD trained me to become the
alpha male and now if Bear sees a deer on the property, he bolts, I holler
"Bear Come" and he stops looks at me, looks back at where the deer had been
a split second ago and then he bounds back to me.

No shock collar were used in training, just a light tug on a choke collar
was employed. I worked with Bear for the eight weeks of training, but he
came around within the third week. It was a simple matter of taking him on
walks or around the back yard 15 minutes a day.

Bear has become my go to fishin' buddy and will accompany Mr. Jeff Miller
and I this year on our annual NC fishin' get together. As a matter of fact,
Bear and I are going fishing in about an hour from now.

I have posted some pics, over at ABPF, of Bear and I from last June on Upper
Creek. He only leaves my side during breaks and when he can't negotiate the
path I have chosen up stream. Otherwise he is either by my side or right
behind me at all times. Bear is a one hundred and fifteen pounds of joy and
enthusiasm.

Op

jeff miller wrote:
rw wrote:

I used a training collar for the first time this spring, on my
girlfriend's dog, a totally (to that point) unmanageable Anatolian
Sheperd Winnemucca Pound Pup. The dog was impossible. Whenever he saw
cows or elk, off he'd go on a wild and illegal and dangerous romp.

The training collar (i.e. shock collar) was a one-time fix for a solid
come/stay. It was like magic.


shock on...no doubt, infliction of physical pain can be a great teacher
and molder of behavior and thought (and not just in dogs)...simply not
my approach. ... i do note the "invisible fence" business is thriving
in these parts though.

jeff

The correct use of the training collar to teach "come" doesn't involve
much if any pain -- only mild discomfort. The idea is not to punish the
dog for not coming, but to reward him for coming.

The technique is to first find the lowest setting at which the dog
responds. You can test it on yourself by putting your fingers on the
electrodes. When the dog doesn't come you push the button and KEEP IT
ON. When the dog comes and sits you release the button. He is not
allowed to run off until you give a "break" command.

The basic idea is to get the dog to think that you have super powers to
affect him at a distance. Many years ago I had a Malamute -- a
notoriously "hard" breed -- that wouldn't come. A sharp hit in the flank
with a slingshot fixed that for good.

The way I see it, it's far better for the dog to avoid running into the
highway or getting shot by a rancher for chasing cows or shot for
chasing game than it is to get a minor shock. Once the training is done,
which typically requires only a very few trials, the collar is not
needed. Then you will have a well behaved dog with a solid "come."

Training collars are not for every dog. My Border Collie, for example,
would probably totally freak out. She's so eager to please that it's not
necessary in any case.

BTW, if you can't leave a plate of pork chops on the coffee table, alone
with your dog, and expect the pork chops to be there when you return,
your dog is poorly trained.

A well trained dog is a joy. A poorly trained one is a headache.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 09:31:10 -0400, jeff miller
wrote:

i'm flying in to salt lake city, renting a tiny car, and driving up.
any suggestions about the route based on your experience?

I would suggest I-80 to Rock Springs, then up US 191 either all the way to
Jackson and up through Grand Teton, or get off 191 at Farson and up through
Lander and Dubois. Both routes will take you through some nice scenery, the
route through Dubois being prettier but also longer. The fastest and shortest
way is up I-15 to Idaho Falls and from there to West Yellowstone.
--
Charlie...
http://www.chocphoto.com

rw wrote:

jeff miller wrote:

rw wrote:

I used a training collar for the first time this spring, on my
girlfriend's dog, a totally (to that point) unmanageable Anatolian
Sheperd Winnemucca Pound Pup. The dog was impossible. Whenever he saw
cows or elk, off he'd go on a wild and illegal and dangerous romp.

The training collar (i.e. shock collar) was a one-time fix for a
solid come/stay. It was like magic.


shock on...no doubt, infliction of physical pain can be a great
teacher and molder of behavior and thought (and not just in
dogs)...simply not my approach. ... i do note the "invisible fence"
business is thriving in these parts though.

jeff


The correct use of the training collar to teach "come" doesn't involve
much if any pain -- only mild discomfort. The idea is not to punish the
dog for not coming, but to reward him for coming.

The technique is to first find the lowest setting at which the dog
responds. You can test it on yourself by putting your fingers on the
electrodes. When the dog doesn't come you push the button and KEEP IT
ON. When the dog comes and sits you release the button. He is not
allowed to run off until you give a "break" command.

The basic idea is to get the dog to think that you have super powers to
affect him at a distance. Many years ago I had a Malamute -- a
notoriously "hard" breed -- that wouldn't come. A sharp hit in the flank
with a slingshot fixed that for good.

The way I see it, it's far better for the dog to avoid running into the
highway or getting shot by a rancher for chasing cows or shot for
chasing game than it is to get a minor shock. Once the training is done,
which typically requires only a very few trials, the collar is not
needed. Then you will have a well behaved dog with a solid "come."

Training collars are not for every dog. My Border Collie, for example,
would probably totally freak out. She's so eager to please that it's not
necessary in any case.

BTW, if you can't leave a plate of pork chops on the coffee table, alone
with your dog, and expect the pork chops to be there when you return,
your dog is poorly trained.

A well trained dog is a joy. A poorly trained one is a headache.


i have no idea what we did to or for sadie, our mainly golden, but dash
of other breeds, stray. we took her in when she was about 2 months old,
either abandoned or lost for several days. swollen belly, not doing
well, but puppy cute. she did the house training thing quick, and
learned most other things following the loud voice training approach.
she loves the woods and used to hike with me a lot...never running far
from me and always keeping her eye on me and my location. i got lost in
the mountains once, and she kept close with me the 8 hours it took me to
find a road.

i think she was probably the weak, shy dog in a litter, and some asshole
simply dumped her on a mountain road. we've never used any painful or
scary treatment. nevertheless, she stays in the yard without a fence,
even at night alone. and, while she is always ready to eat anything we
eat, she won't steal it. i often leave food plates where she could get
at them while i'm out of the room, and she doesn't take it. we take her
to my office every day we are there, where she's now part of the office
staff, and the best-behaved, happiest member of the family...and the one
many folks prefer to see. she is a reasonably well-behaved dog and a
joy...so i know what you mean.

i understand the principles you describe, and the need. thus far, I've
not had the need. my original comments dealt with painful training
methods...shooting a dog, shocking it so severely that it yelped and one
that even turned a flip (it was running on a "blind" during training,
but in the wrong direction), biting its ear...etc. i just can't bring
myself to do those things...my own personal flaw i guess. if i had a
really bad or frustrating dog that required temporarily-harsh training
methods, i'd probably try to find a trainer to do the dirty work of
discipline in my absence or i'd find a better-suited owner and home for it.

jeff