Not to be picky, but...(and something for jeff)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...src=newsletter

Under his general premise, Ike would have been the first "Pacific" and
"European" US Prez. Anyhoo, it must come as quite a shock to you Obamaniacs to
find that not only is he not black, he's apparently not white, either...

And on a little more serious note for jeff our "discussion" about how well
Obama is known or thought of in places like China:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091113/..._obama_oba_mao

Look at some of the quotes from "people in the street" - no knocks, no praise,
more of "no opinion or knowledge" kinda thing. And nothing against (or for)
Obama in that - I'd offer that the quotes would have been the same regardless of
who the POTUS was.

TC,
R
....and I'm not so sure the Obama gaslamp would be such a good idea in the
US...now, if Barney Frank ever makes it up the ladder...

On Nov 14, 7:08*am, wrote:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...09/11/13/AR200...

Under his general premise, Ike would have been the first "Pacific" and
"European" US Prez. *Anyhoo, it must come as quite a shock to you Obamaniacs to
find that not only is he not black, he's apparently not white, either...

And on a little more serious note for jeff our "discussion" about how well
Obama is known or thought of in places like China:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091113/..._obama_oba_mao

Look at some of the quotes from "people in the street" - no knocks, no praise,
more of "no opinion or knowledge" kinda thing. *And nothing against (or for)
Obama in that - I'd offer that the quotes would have been the same regardless of
who the POTUS was.

TC,
R
...and I'm not so sure the Obama gaslamp would be such a good idea in the
US...now, if Barney Frank ever makes it up the ladder...

Imbecile.

g.

wrote:

And on a little more serious note for jeff our "discussion" about how well
Obama is known or thought of in places like China:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091113/..._obama_oba_mao

Look at some of the quotes from "people in the street" - no knocks, no praise,
more of "no opinion or knowledge" kinda thing. And nothing against (or for)
Obama in that - I'd offer that the quotes would have been the same regardless of
who the POTUS was.

humorous jab...as usual... i sorta like the hawaii thing.

your article states the following:

"Obama will have no trouble being recognized in China. He's been the
top-ranked foreigner in searches on Baidu, China's leading search engine
— No. 22 as of Thursday morning."

why you think the article, and the bland statements of two giggling
"shop girls" proves your point is a mystery to me...perhaps you can
explain its merit for your contention? really, that was lame and
beneath your ability to muster real facts to support your claim, imo.
though, i suspect the sudden twitch of my leg may be related to your effort.

jeff

On Sat, 14 Nov 2009 10:16:50 -0500, jeff wrote:

wrote:

And on a little more serious note for jeff our "discussion" about how well
Obama is known or thought of in places like China:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091113/..._obama_oba_mao

Look at some of the quotes from "people in the street" - no knocks, no praise,
more of "no opinion or knowledge" kinda thing. And nothing against (or for)
Obama in that - I'd offer that the quotes would have been the same regardless of
who the POTUS was.

humorous jab...as usual... i sorta like the hawaii thing.

your article states the following:

"Obama will have no trouble being recognized in China. He's been the
top-ranked foreigner in searches on Baidu, China's leading search engine
— No. 22 as of Thursday morning."

Do you have an opinion as to what that means, and if so, on what personal
knowledge do you base it?

why you think the article, and the bland statements of two giggling
"shop girls" proves your point is a mystery to me...perhaps you can
explain its merit for your contention?

Perhaps you missed these items...maybe your tingling leg distracted you:

"'He's special for the Americans, but definitely not for the Chinese,' said Shen
Dingli, director of the Center for American Studies at Fudan University in
Shanghai. 'On the contrary, we are always influenced by the tone of
government-monitored media.'"

"That media, so far, has not played up Obama's visit with the breathlessness of
U.S. media or of Chinese media whenever President Hu Jintao leaves the country."

"'He's coming?' asked one clerk at a state-run Xinhua Bookstore, which displayed
biographies of Obama and his wife, Michelle, as well as collections of his
speeches."

"At newsstands in the past week, Obama could be found on the cover of just one
magazine: Men's Health."

really, that was lame and
beneath your ability to muster real facts to support your claim, imo.
though, i suspect the sudden twitch of my leg may be related to your effort.

If you assumed it was in any way meant to be a statement about Obama himself,
you assumed incorrectly. I was merely something that I saw that indicated that
Obama is not the world-wide sensation that many of his devout fans in the US
(and "the West") see him (and seemingly wish him) to be, nor is he "known" in
much of the world.

TC,
R

jeff

On Nov 14, 7:16*am, jeff wrote:

why you think the article, and the bland statements of two giggling
"shop girls" proves your point is a mystery to me...perhaps you can
explain its merit for your contention? *really, that was lame and
beneath your ability to muster real facts to support your claim, imo.
though, i suspect the sudden twitch of my leg may be related to your effort.

wrote:

your article states the following:

"Obama will have no trouble being recognized in China. He's been the
top-ranked foreigner in searches on Baidu, China's leading search engine
— No. 22 as of Thursday morning."

Do you have an opinion as to what that means, and if so, on what personal
knowledge do you base it?

never heard of baidu before your note. wikipedia says Baidu is China's
largest search engine with a market share of more than 62 percent. The
number of Internet users in China rose to 338 million by the end of June
2009, according to a report by the China Internet Network Information
Center. Baidu, the No. 1 search engine in China, has 61.6 percent of
China's market share as of June 2009, according to Analysys International.

so, i reckon it means what it says...obama is a popular subject of
searches by the chinese on baidu, according to the source you cited. the
numbers probably trump your shopgirl statistic with regard to
recognition in china. in fact, your source suggests obama is well-known
as far as being "recognizable" in china. i've not been to china.
whatever personal knowledge i have is based on my limited reading. of
course, i have no idea what prompted any individual search on baidu...


why you think the article, and the bland statements of two giggling
"shop girls" proves your point is a mystery to me...perhaps you can
explain its merit for your contention?

Perhaps you missed these items...maybe your tingling leg distracted you:

nah, alas, i read the whole thing. the reference to my leg was intended
to refer to a possibility you were "pulling my leg" with such a
ridiculous suggestion that the article had any real meaning in our prior
disagreement about who was more recognizable around the world.

"'He's special for the Americans, but definitely not for the Chinese,' said Shen
Dingli, director of the Center for American Studies at Fudan University in
Shanghai. 'On the contrary, we are always influenced by the tone of
government-monitored media.'"

frankly...i don't recall contending the chinese thought obama was
"special". i read this as saying the perception of obama in china is
shaped by the government media, not that he is unknown.

"That media, so far, has not played up Obama's visit with the breathlessness of
U.S. media or of Chinese media whenever President Hu Jintao leaves the country."

....and this has meaning to you? china's government-controlled media
promotes and prefers its leaders to ours...so?



"'He's coming?' asked one clerk at a state-run Xinhua Bookstore, which displayed
biographies of Obama and his wife, Michelle, as well as collections of his
speeches."

appears to show a recognition of who "he" is. until the media announced
it here, i had no idea palin was coming to nc. that i didn't know she
was coming doesn't establish i don't know who she is.


"At newsstands in the past week, Obama could be found on the cover of just one
magazine: Men's Health."

government-controlled media perhaps?? but what meaning do you give that
statement, and what is your personal knowledge? i think it suggests more
about chinese recognition of obama than it does about a lack of
knowledge of who he is...do you reckon folks who saw the cover just
thought he was another of the healthy models usually on mag covers? no
mention that he's prez of u.s.? what was the story? and, do you think
that means there were no articles in any of the other chinese magazines
or papers, or comments and photos on chinese teevee? what's the
liklihood he'd get the cover of every magazine on that date? are you
claiming that the mens health magazine cover was the only public or
private recognition of obama by chinese people or media? c'mon...


really, that was lame and
beneath your ability to muster real facts to support your claim, imo.
though, i suspect the sudden twitch of my leg may be related to your effort.

If you assumed it was in any way meant to be a statement about Obama himself,
you assumed incorrectly. I was merely something that I saw that indicated that
Obama is not the world-wide sensation that many of his devout fans in the US
(and "the West") see him (and seemingly wish him) to be, nor is he "known" in
much of the world.

obama as a "sensation" mischaracterizes the real substance of our prior
discussion (in context of the peace prize and recognition in the world),
doesn't it? ...and, again, imo, if you think the cited article proves
your point...well, i have enough regard for your intellect that i still
believe you're pulling my leg.

jeff

"jeff" wrote in message
. ..
wrote:
jeff

I don't know about the rest of this less than inspiring thread, but it
appears to me that Rah Dean is certainly some sort of fan of bama's. I mean,
he certainly can't get Obama off of his mind.

Sedentary Stalker perhaps?

Op

On Sat, 14 Nov 2009 15:13:14 -0500, jeff wrote:

wrote:

your article states the following:

"Obama will have no trouble being recognized in China. He's been the
top-ranked foreigner in searches on Baidu, China's leading search engine
— No. 22 as of Thursday morning."

Do you have an opinion as to what that means, and if so, on what personal
knowledge do you base it?

never heard of baidu before your note. wikipedia says Baidu is China's
largest search engine with a market share of more than 62 percent. The
number of Internet users in China rose to 338 million by the end of June
2009, according to a report by the China Internet Network Information
Center. Baidu, the No. 1 search engine in China, has 61.6 percent of
China's market share as of June 2009, according to Analysys International.

so, i reckon it means what it says...obama is a popular subject of
searches by the chinese on baidu, according to the source you cited. the
numbers probably trump your shopgirl statistic with regard to
recognition in china.

OK. How do you know "obama is a popular subject of searches by the chinese on
baidu?" What does being number 22 on a particular day mean? How many distinct
people searched, and for what purpose? Were they even in China? What terms
were 1-21? Maybe Axelrod kept trying to see how his shtick was playing in
Beijing. Maybe a whole bunch of reporters (or wannabe reporters) were trying to
see what Baidu would throw up. Maybe a bunch of shopgirls think he's SOOOOO
dreamy. And do you have any idea of what Baidu charges to, um, skew the numbers
(and they do heavily use "pay to play" - in fact, they've been criticized for
that very thing)? Basically, are you just impressed that "he's number 22 on X
date on Baidu?," or, do you have some knowledge of what it means so that you can
make a case for why his being number 22 on X date means something that would
bolster your case.

The main hit when one searches for "Obama" on Baidu? A local page that informs
the searcher that his name is common in many parts of the world, his father's
tribe in Kenya and what dialect they speak, and lists 4 facts about him - his
father, wife, daughters, and the last of the 4 facts? He has a dog named "bo."
The second hit in the list is BarackObama.com and the third is the text of his
"Victory speech." OTOH, search baidu for "Brad Pitt" and the first hit is the
same type of local baidu page as Obama's. However, you get more than a
reasonable person should care about him - his height, his weight,where he was
born, in what every educational institution "the world's sexiest man" ever set
foot, the history of his "love life," (which links to a similar screed on Jolie,
Aniston, etc.), a rundown of his movies, what he had for lunch each day, where
he shops, what he drives. Where did Obama go to school? Um, well, the baidu
listing is no help. What did he do before 2008? Not a single hint - no law
school, no Senate, nada. OTOH, apparently, the one remaining tidbit baidu found
crucial about (POTUS) Obama is that some pol in Equatorial Guinea is somehow
related by name or something...

Here they a

http://baike.baidu.com/view/1518279.htm?fr=ala0 (Obama)

http://baike.baidu.com/view/491940.htm?fr=ala0 (Pitt)

Yeah, I know it's in Chinese, but the pages could be in ****in' Klingon and the
content amount difference is still obvious.

And as aside - I'd offer that the aforementioned "skewing" by someone(s) is
possible - there are a number of hits in the top ranks for practically (and
thankfully) unknown US loonakook Alex Jones. While anything is possible, I
_seriously_ doubt many Chinese people are interested in obscure US loons raving
about US politics, but hey, ??? I guess if they are, they could always email Da
Sarge...

in fact, your source suggests obama is well-known
as far as being "recognizable" in china. i've not been to china.
whatever personal knowledge i have is based on my limited reading. of
course, i have no idea what prompted any individual search on baidu...


why you think the article, and the bland statements of two giggling
"shop girls" proves your point is a mystery to me...perhaps you can
explain its merit for your contention?

Perhaps you missed these items...maybe your tingling leg distracted you:

nah, alas, i read the whole thing. the reference to my leg was intended
to refer to a possibility you were "pulling my leg" with such a
ridiculous suggestion that the article had any real meaning in our prior
disagreement about who was more recognizable around the world.

"'He's special for the Americans, but definitely not for the Chinese,' said Shen
Dingli, director of the Center for American Studies at Fudan University in
Shanghai. 'On the contrary, we are always influenced by the tone of
government-monitored media.'"

frankly...i don't recall contending the chinese thought obama was
"special". i read this as saying the perception of obama in china is
shaped by the government media, not that he is unknown.

As I recall, your contention, generally, was that Obama has brought a sense of
hope/change/something to much of the world. My contention was, and is, that
much of the world doesn't know (anything of substance) or care about Obama. I'd
agree that if you asked everyone on the planet if they had heard the name
"Obama," a large number would say "yes." The same is true of many names and I
suspect that many entertainment figures would score much higher, as would both
"famous" and "infamous" "leaders." But insofar as the world's population
"knowing" anything about him, caring one way or the other, or having any true
personal feelings, good or bad, about him, the number would shrink by several
orders of magnitude.

IAC, I don't and didn't offer the story as some all-encompassing final verdict
on Obama in China (or the world), I simply saw something I found both amusing
(the flaming Obama and the Oba Mao shirts - and no, I found it amusing, not a
political statement), moderately informative - a view on the "man on the street"
"background atmosphere," and mildly informational - Shen Dingli's comments. And
no, I don't propose that he speaks for all of China - OTOH, I don't dismiss him
completely, either...granted, it's not like he's a Lecturer for a law class or
two at the U of C or something, but hey, it's almost like Paul Krugman said
something...

TC,
R

wrote in message
...
As I recall, your contention, generally, was that Obama has brought a
sense of
hope/change/something to much of the world. My contention was, and is,
that
much of the world doesn't know (anything of substance) or care about
Obama.

and this article proves what, exactly?? Just for starters, the official
Chinese position was and is somewhat leery of Obama, as they found the Bush
approach much more predictable. Several of their officials expressed such a
view during the campaign, and numerous experts on China have been all over
the airwaves since, explaining the Chinese viewpoint. Now, given that, and
that Chinese public perception is greatly shaped by a government-controlled
media, these links you cited are about as germane to your debate with Jeff
as an interview with my dog.
Tom

wrote:

so, i reckon it means what it says...obama is a popular subject of
searches by the chinese on baidu, according to the source you cited. the
numbers probably trump your shopgirl statistic with regard to
recognition in china.

OK. How do you know "obama is a popular subject of searches by the chinese on
baidu?" What does being number 22 on a particular day mean? How many distinct
people searched, and for what purpose? Were they even in China? What terms
were 1-21? Maybe Axelrod kept trying to see how his shtick was playing in
Beijing. Maybe a whole bunch of reporters (or wannabe reporters) were trying to
see what Baidu would throw up. Maybe a bunch of shopgirls think he's SOOOOO
dreamy. And do you have any idea of what Baidu charges to, um, skew the numbers
(and they do heavily use "pay to play" - in fact, they've been criticized for
that very thing)? Basically, are you just impressed that "he's number 22 on X
date on Baidu?," or, do you have some knowledge of what it means so that you can
make a case for why his being number 22 on X date means something that would
bolster your case.

it was your cited source...not mine. my interpretation of its meaning
is as reliable, if not more reliable, than yours...imo.

The main hit when one searches for "Obama" on Baidu? A local page that informs
the searcher that his name is common in many parts of the world, his father's
tribe in Kenya and what dialect they speak, and lists 4 facts about him - his
father, wife, daughters, and the last of the 4 facts? He has a dog named "bo."
The second hit in the list is BarackObama.com and the third is the text of his
"Victory speech." OTOH, search baidu for "Brad Pitt" and the first hit is the
same type of local baidu page as Obama's. However, you get more than a
reasonable person should care about him - his height, his weight,where he was
born, in what every educational institution "the world's sexiest man" ever set
foot, the history of his "love life," (which links to a similar screed on Jolie,
Aniston, etc.), a rundown of his movies, what he had for lunch each day, where
he shops, what he drives. Where did Obama go to school? Um, well, the baidu
listing is no help. What did he do before 2008? Not a single hint - no law
school, no Senate, nada. OTOH, apparently, the one remaining tidbit baidu found
crucial about (POTUS) Obama is that some pol in Equatorial Guinea is somehow
related by name or something...

Here they a

http://baike.baidu.com/view/1518279.htm?fr=ala0 (Obama)

http://baike.baidu.com/view/491940.htm?fr=ala0 (Pitt)

Yeah, I know it's in Chinese, but the pages could be in ****in' Klingon and the
content amount difference is still obvious.

And as aside - I'd offer that the aforementioned "skewing" by someone(s) is
possible - there are a number of hits in the top ranks for practically (and
thankfully) unknown US loonakook Alex Jones. While anything is possible, I
_seriously_ doubt many Chinese people are interested in obscure US loons raving
about US politics, but hey, ??? I guess if they are, they could always email Da
Sarge...

ok...so? i was simply working from your initial premise in citing the
article...which i thought misplaced. i didn't vouch for anything in the
article...nor would i use it to support your position or mine about
obama's recognition.


in fact, your source suggests obama is well-known
as far as being "recognizable" in china. i've not been to china.
whatever personal knowledge i have is based on my limited reading. of
course, i have no idea what prompted any individual search on baidu...


why you think the article, and the bland statements of two giggling
"shop girls" proves your point is a mystery to me...perhaps you can
explain its merit for your contention?
Perhaps you missed these items...maybe your tingling leg distracted you:
nah, alas, i read the whole thing. the reference to my leg was intended
to refer to a possibility you were "pulling my leg" with such a
ridiculous suggestion that the article had any real meaning in our prior
disagreement about who was more recognizable around the world.
"'He's special for the Americans, but definitely not for the Chinese,' said Shen
Dingli, director of the Center for American Studies at Fudan University in
Shanghai. 'On the contrary, we are always influenced by the tone of
government-monitored media.'"
frankly...i don't recall contending the chinese thought obama was
"special". i read this as saying the perception of obama in china is
shaped by the government media, not that he is unknown.

As I recall, your contention, generally, was that Obama has brought a sense of
hope/change/something to much of the world.

that's correct (except, "something" is a bit too vague and i don't
recall saying that, but it's consistent with how i speak sometimes g)...

i do contend obama is recognized in much of the world...more so than any
of the other 2009 nobel winners...and that such recognition is based
largely on concepts or perceptions of his uniqueness as our first black
president, and the "hope" and "change" with regard to the U.S. politics,
policy, and foreign relations. there are a range of characteristics that
might qualify him as special to many...including me...in the context of
his presidency and otherwise.

your citation didn't disprove it, nor support your argument imo.

My contention was, and is, that
much of the world doesn't know (anything of substance) or care about Obama. I'd
agree that if you asked everyone on the planet if they had heard the name
"Obama," a large number would say "yes." The same is true of many names and I
suspect that many entertainment figures would score much higher, as would both
"famous" and "infamous" "leaders." But insofar as the world's population
"knowing" anything about him, caring one way or the other, or having any true
personal feelings, good or bad, about him, the number would shrink by several
orders of magnitude.


OK...so that's your argument. Now, what are the reliable data sources
you will accept as proof that you are right or wrong? The Washington
Post? The NYT? an AP puff piece by Cara Anna (WTF is she?)?

IAC, I don't and didn't offer the story as some all-encompassing final verdict
on Obama in China (or the world), I simply saw something I found both amusing
(the flaming Obama and the Oba Mao shirts - and no, I found it amusing, not a
political statement), moderately informative - a view on the "man on the street"
"background atmosphere," and mildly informational - Shen Dingli's comments. And
no, I don't propose that he speaks for all of China - OTOH, I don't dismiss him
completely, either...granted, it's not like he's a Lecturer for a law class or
two at the U of C or something, but hey, it's almost like Paul Krugman said
something...

entertaining as always...but i've never denied you were competent and
persuasive in that regard. my point was, and is, that your source was
appropriate for pulling my leg, but not as authority for any position
about Obama's recognition or "specialness" in much of the world.

jeff

TC,
R