IFAW - Saving Harp Seals

"pearl" wrote in message
...
"Terry Crawford" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 23:21:18 GMT, "rick etter"
wrote:


"Terry Crawford" wrote in message
...
On 21 Apr 2004 15:08:27 -0700, (William J.
Wolfe) wrote:

"pearl" wrote in message
...


- Interesting that you should feel a need to point that out. ..

remainder of rant deleted to conserve electrons

And the point of your ravings is ...?

Eat meat, die young(er) and leave the world to the meek.
==================
Only problem is that isn't the case. The longest lived people as a
group in
the world are not vegans. Kinda screws the whole vegan rant, doesnt
it?



Damn. OK, steak tonight with a nice big Cabernet Suauvignon. MMMmmmm.

Actually, the people etter, our dietary wizardness, was referring to
are vegetarians. That's right,- vegetarian Seventh-day Adventists.
Longevity of the vegan sub-set wasn't studied seperately, afaIa, but
other epidemiological (study of populations) research shows that
vegans are less at risk of chronic disease than lacto-ovo vegetarians.
Kind of really screws the whole meatarian rant, doesn't it, eh etter?
====================
Not at all, fool. You should learn to read real things instead of your
propaganda. The longest lived groups of people are not vegan, period.
Your whole religion is still just smoke and mirrors, killer.

"Ködos" wrote in message ...
Club a seal for Jesus.

If not for Jesus, please do it for the children. For goodness sake,
think of the children.

Inner-earth Lesley wrote:
- Interesting that you should feel a need to point that out. ..

remainder of rant deleted to conserve electrons

And the point of your ravings is ...?

Eat meat, die young(er) and leave the world to the meek.

==================
Only problem is that isn't the case. The longest lived people as a group in
the world are not vegans. Kinda screws the whole vegan rant, doesnt it?



Damn. OK, steak tonight with a nice big Cabernet Suauvignon. MMMmmmm.

Actually, the people etter, our dietary wizardness, was referring to
are vegetarians. That's right,- vegetarian Seventh-day Adventists.

Be fully accurate in describing SDAs in the study. They a
- vegetarians
- tee-totalers (zero alcohol consumption)
- non-smokers
- regular exercisers
- active church members
- Christians
- very moderate/temperate sorts

It's not just the diet that explains longevity. It's the entire lifestyle. Why
aren't you pushing for people to attend church, to not smoke, to get regular
exercise, and to abstain from booze, Chelsea?

Longevity of the vegan sub-set wasn't studied seperately,

Probably the best science we have was summarized in the American Journal
of Clinical Nutrition in 1999, in an article entitled Mortality in
Vegetarians and Nonvegetarians. In an enormous undertaking, twelve
researchers took all of the biggest and best studies to date on
vegetarian mortality rates and pooled all the data together. They took a
decade of mortality data from 28,000 vegetarians from Germany,
California, and Britain. And found... no survival advantage for
vegetarians. What about vegans though? Despite even having lower
cholesterol levels than vegetarians, the vegans in the study didn't live
any longer either. Vegans had the same mortality rate as meateaters.
http://vegnews.org/modules.php?name=...=print&sid=121

afaIa, but
other epidemiological (study of populations) research shows that
vegans are less at risk of chronic disease than lacto-ovo vegetarians.

Ipse dixit. Comparative studies between Western omnivorous populationad and
Indian vegetarian populations shows that people tend to die of the same causes
regardless of culture or diet.

It is usually claimed that the lives of predominantly meat-eating
peoples are short-lived, but the Aborigines of Australia, who
traditionally eat a diet rich in animal products, are known for their
longevity (at least before colonisation by Europeans). Within Aboriginal
society, there is a special caste of the elderly (42). Obviously, if no
old people existed, no such group would have existed. In his book
Nutrition and Physical Degeneration, Dr. Price has numerous photographs
of elderly native peoples from around the world (42). Explorers such as
Vilhjalmur Stefansson reported great longevity among the Inuit (again,
before colonisation). (43)

Similarly, the Russians of the Caucasus mountains live to great ages on
a diet of fatty pork and whole milk products. The Hunzas, also known for
their robust health and longevity, eat substantial portions of goat's
milk which has a higher saturated fat content than cow's milk (44). In
contrast, the largely vegetarian inhabitants of southern India have the
shortest life-spans in the world (45). Dr Weston Price, DDS, travelled
around the world in the 1920s and 1930s, investigating native diets.
Without exception, he found a strong correlation among diets rich in
animal fats, with robust health and athletic ability. Special foods for
Swiss athletes, for example, included bowls of fresh, raw cream! In
Africa, Dr Price discovered that groups whose diets were rich in fatty
fish and organ meats, like liver, consistently carried off the prizes in
athletic contests, and that meat-eating tribes always dominated peoples
whose diets were largely vegetarian (42).
http://www.vegetarian-diet.info/vege...s-lifespan.htm

Kind of really screws the whole meatarian rant, doesn't it, eh etter?

Quite the contrary, Lesley. Those who eat balanced diets and have balanced lives
tend to outlive their less temperate counterparts.

"pearl" wrote
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/70/3/525S

The problem I have with the Oxford study is that they grouped all
meat-eaters together as a single group, those 23% who ate meat once a week
or less were averaged in with those who who ate it several times a day, and
did not differentiate between those who avoided pork, fatty meats, or all
red meat. IOW people with very poor dietary habits were grouped with those
meat-eaters whose results may have been very favorable. Generally. consuming
larger amounts of fresh fruit and vegetables relative to meats is more
healthy, that's a given.

You are both right and you are both wrong. There will always be those
examples in nature and the world that will forever confound the experts and
spit in the face of science. Accept that premise, and the rest is mashed
potatoes and gravy.... now back to boating

Bryan

"Dutch" wrote in message ...
"pearl" wrote

Not indicating snips now Dutch?

How about acknowledging that you were wrong about Adventists?

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/70/3/525S

The problem I have with the Oxford study is that they grouped all
meat-eaters together as a single group, those 23% who ate meat once a week
or less were averaged in with those who who ate it several times a day, and
did not differentiate between those who avoided pork, fatty meats, or all
red meat. IOW people with very poor dietary habits were grouped with those
meat-eaters whose results may have been very favorable.

'The most striking results from the analysis were the strong positive
associations between increasing consumption of animal fats and ischemic
heart disease mortality [death rate ratios (and 95% CIs) for the highest
third of intake compared with the lowest third in subjects with no prior
disease were 3.29 (1.50, 7.21) for total animal fat, 2.77 (1.25, 6.13)
for saturated animal fat, and 3.53 (1.57, 7.96) for dietary cholesterol;
P for trend: 0.01, 0.01, and 0.001, respectively]. '

Generally. consuming
larger amounts of fresh fruit and vegetables relative to meats is more
healthy, that's a given.

'.. disease rates were significantly associated within a range of dietary
plant food composition that suggested an absence of a disease prevention
threshold. That is, the closer a diet is to an all-plant foods diet, the greater
will be the reduction in the rates of these diseases.'
http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases...sis_paper.html

pearl wrote:
...
Adventists to a person do not smoke or drink alcohol and they maintain close
supportive family relationships. The effect of their diets per se apart from
these other factors is not known.

Animal product consumption and mortality because of all
causes combined, coronary heart disease, stroke, diabetes,
and cancer in Seventh-day Adventists.

Probably the best science we have was summarized in the American Journal
of Clinical Nutrition in 1999, in an article entitled Mortality in
Vegetarians and Nonvegetarians. In an enormous undertaking, twelve
researchers took all of the biggest and best studies to date on
vegetarian mortality rates and pooled all the data together. They took a
decade of mortality data from 28,000 vegetarians from Germany,
California, and Britain. And found... no survival advantage for
vegetarians. What about vegans though? Despite even having lower
cholesterol levels than vegetarians, the vegans in the study didn't live
any longer either. Vegans had the same mortality rate as meateaters.
http://vegnews.org/modules.php?name=...=print&sid=121

...

"usual suspect" wrote in message ...
pearl wrote:
...
Adventists to a person do not smoke or drink alcohol and they maintain close
supportive family relationships. The effect of their diets per se apart from
these other factors is not known.

Animal product consumption and mortality because of all
causes combined, coronary heart disease, stroke, diabetes,
and cancer in Seventh-day Adventists.

Probably the best science we have was summarized in the American Journal
of Clinical Nutrition in 1999, in an article entitled Mortality in
Vegetarians and Nonvegetarians. In an enormous undertaking, twelve
researchers took all of the biggest and best studies to date on
vegetarian mortality rates and pooled all the data together. They took a
decade of mortality data from 28,000 vegetarians from Germany,
California, and Britain. And found... no survival advantage for
vegetarians. What about vegans though? Despite even having lower
cholesterol levels than vegetarians, the vegans in the study didn't live
any longer either. Vegans had the same mortality rate as meateaters.
http://vegnews.org/modules.php?name=...=print&sid=121

But the S-D Adventists, study says otherwise.
Any idea what their agricultural methods are?

The article you quote goes on;

'.. it's important to realize that even as we vegetarians are now
with no changes, just because we don't seem to live longer, doesn't
mean we're not healthier. These studies were of mortality rates only.
Everybody's got to die some time and so it's not only how long one
lives, but also how well one lives. Vegetarians still have less heart
disease, less obesity, less hypertension, less diabetes, less colon
cancer-even less emergency appendectomies. The list goes on and
on. So it still makes sense to go vegetarian, just for health reasons
alone, but with all that one would think we'd have a survival
advantage. We have a tremendous potential for reducing heart
disease risk, but there's something getting in our way. What is it
about vegetarian and especially vegan diets that's increasing our
risk of heart disease so much that it's canceling out our potential?

The first reason why vegetarian nutrition experts think we're not
doing as well as we should is that we're not getting enough omega 3
fatty acids in our diet and we're getting too many omega 6 fatty
acids. For more information about these essential fatty acids, I
recommend the book Becoming Vegan by Melina and Davis and
an article by Jack Norris, R.D. entitled "Staying a Healthy Vegan"
at http://www.veganoutreach.org/health/stayinghealthy.html.

Suffice to say that every vegetarian and vegan should:

Step 1. Every day eat 1-2 tablespoons of ground up flax seeds

Step 2. If you have any of the following oils in your house, throw
them away: corn oil, safflower oil, sunflower oil, or cottonseed oil.
If you feel the need to use oil, use olive or canola instead.

Reason number two why we're not living up to our potential-
or more accurately, living out to our potential is probably even
more important. Reasons number two is homocysteine.
Homocysteine is a toxic metabolite-it attacks our blood vessels,
it' attacks our brain cells; it's a risk factor for heart disease, for
stroke, for Alzheimer's and a growing number of other diseases.
And, up to 25% of lacto-vegetarians and 80% of vegans have
seriously elevated levels in their blood. This is probably why the
latest research suggests vegetarians have over twice the risk of
dying from degenerative brain diseases.

Why do we build up more of this toxic stuff than meat-eaters?
Because, simply, we don't get enough vitamin B12. We now
have quite convincing data that there seems to be an epidemic
of this functional B12 deficiency among vegans. Every person
on this planet needs a regular and reliable source of B12. For
vegans this means vitamin B12 supplements or vitamin B12
fortified foods.

If one chooses the supplement route, one can take 100mcg
of B12 once a day, or 2000mcg once a week. Ideally the
supplements should be chewed or let to dissolve under the
tongue. Alternately, if one relies solely on B12 fortified foods,
one needs to eat servings of B12-fortified foods at least twice
a day, There does not seem to be a harm of taking too much.
And if you haven't been getting enough, once you start
supplementing your diet, odds are your homocysteine levels
will drop, you may physically and mentally feel better, and
you'll lower your risk of becoming paralyzed, demented and
dead-all for just pennies a day!

{pearl- beneficial gut microflora (which antibiotics severely
disrupt) resident in the small intestine produce B12, as long
as the trace-mineral cobalt is consumed in adequate amounts.
Conventionally-grown foods are deficient in cobalt and other
minerals. Research has shown that organically (sustainably)
grown foods have higher levels of minerals, including cobalt,
and also B12, which plants take up from soil rich in B12}.

When I first learned about all this, my first thought was that
it just didn't seem natural. When human beings were evolving,
I kept thinking, they didn't have to take flax. I learned that
that's because there were no such things as cottonseed oil,
no such thing as trans fats. Prehistoric peoples got much of
their omega 3's from wild plants that tend to have much
higher levels than the ones currently cultivated. Purslane, for
example, the most common plant in the world, is one of the
highest plant sources of omega 3's. But, as a culture we just
don't eat weeds anymore.

And those cavepersons didn't have to take vitamin B12
supplements I thought. Well, one of the reasons is because
they didn't chlorinate it out of their water supply. People
used to be able to get B12 from well water, drinking from
mountain streams, etc. It's true that we don't get a lot of
B12 in our water anymore, but we don't get a lot of cholera
either-that's a good thing. The problem is that we live in an
unnatural world which is compromising our health,
compromising our vegetarian potential. But we can reclaim
that potential with a but few simple changes, and maximize
our chances for optimal health and longevity. '

http://vegnews.org/modules.php?name=...=print&sid=121



...

pearl lied:
...

Adventists to a person do not smoke or drink alcohol and they maintain close
supportive family relationships. The effect of their diets per se apart from
these other factors is not known.

Animal product consumption and mortality because of all
causes combined, coronary heart disease, stroke, diabetes,
and cancer in Seventh-day Adventists.

Probably the best science we have was summarized in the American Journal
of Clinical Nutrition in 1999, in an article entitled Mortality in
Vegetarians and Nonvegetarians. In an enormous undertaking, twelve
researchers took all of the biggest and best studies to date on
vegetarian mortality rates and pooled all the data together. They took a
decade of mortality data from 28,000 vegetarians from Germany,
California, and Britain. And found... no survival advantage for
vegetarians. What about vegans though? Despite even having lower
cholesterol levels than vegetarians, the vegans in the study didn't live
any longer either. Vegans had the same mortality rate as meateaters.
http://vegnews.org/modules.php?name=...=print&sid=121

But the S-D Adventists, study says otherwise.

No, it does not. The difference between 81.2 (Okinawa) and 84.5 (SDA) is not
significant enough to motivate people to give up foods they enjoy -- and which
can still be part of a healthy diet and lifestyle. Find studies on populations
who eat lean meats, avoid alcohol and saturated fats, don't smoke, pray, and get
lots of exercise. The SDA data are not diet-only, but about healthy lifestyle.

Any idea what their agricultural methods are?

Yes, most of the SDAs I know here purchase their food at HEB and Albertson's
(large chains) just live everyone else even though they don't buy meat.

...

sociopathic "usual suspect" lied in message
...

pearl wrote:
...

Adventists to a person do not smoke or drink alcohol and they maintain close
supportive family relationships. The effect of their diets per se apart from
these other factors is not known.

Animal product consumption and mortality because of all
causes combined, coronary heart disease, stroke, diabetes,
and cancer in Seventh-day Adventists.

Probably the best science we have was summarized in the American Journal
of Clinical Nutrition in 1999, in an article entitled Mortality in
Vegetarians and Nonvegetarians. In an enormous undertaking, twelve
researchers took all of the biggest and best studies to date on
vegetarian mortality rates and pooled all the data together. They took a
decade of mortality data from 28,000 vegetarians from Germany,
California, and Britain. And found... no survival advantage for
vegetarians. What about vegans though? Despite even having lower
cholesterol levels than vegetarians, the vegans in the study didn't live
any longer either. Vegans had the same mortality rate as meateaters.
http://vegnews.org/modules.php?name=...=print&sid=121

But the S-D Adventists, study says otherwise.

No, it does not.

It certainly does say otherwise.

The difference between 81.2 (Okinawa) and 84.5 (SDA) is not
significant enough to motivate people to give up foods they enjoy -- and which
can still be part of a healthy diet and lifestyle. Find studies on populations
who eat lean meats, avoid alcohol and saturated fats, don't smoke, pray, and get
lots of exercise. The SDA data are not diet-only, but about healthy lifestyle.

Within that population, animal product consumption increases mortality.

Animal product consumption and mortality because of all
causes combined, coronary heart disease, stroke, diabetes,
and cancer in Seventh-day Adventists.
Snowdon DA. Division of Epidemiology, School of Public Health,
University of Minnesota, Minneapolis.
This report reviews, contrasts, and illustrates previously published
findings from a cohort of 27,529 California Seventh-day Adventist
adults who completed questionnaires in 1960 and were followed
for mortality between 1960 and 1980. Within this population, meat
consumption was positively associated with mortality because of all
causes of death combined (in males), coronary heart disease (in
males and females), and diabetes (in males). Egg consumption was
positively associated with mortality because of all causes combined
(in females), coronary heart disease (in females), and cancers of the
colon (in males and females combined) and ovary. Milk consumption
was positively associated with only prostate cancer mortality, and
cheese consumption did not have a clear relationship with any cause
of death. The consumption of meat, eggs, milk, and cheese did not
have negative associations with any of the causes of death investigated.
PMID: 3046303 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE

Any idea what their agricultural methods are?

Yes, most of the SDAs I know here purchase their food at HEB and Albertson's
(large chains) just live everyone else even though they don't buy meat.

...