Rangeley style: heavy or light hooks?

[Jarmo Hurri]

Hello all,

I am planning to tie a set of Rangeley-style streamers. I need to have
streamers which have large silhouette, but which I can cast with a 5wt
or a 6wt line. At least one magazine articles stated that
Rangeley-style streamers would be good for this purpose. (If you have
strong doubts about this, please let me know.)

What I need to do now is to select which hooks I will use. The page

http://globalflyfisher.com/streamers/raske/hooks/hooks.htm

gives a pretty good overview of the different types of hooks
available. Naturally, my desire to use relatively light line weights
biases me towards those hooks made of thinner wire. But, my question
is, does a thin-wire hook make the streamer more prone to swim on its
side?

The much recommended Mike Martinek -hooks are not available (at least
locally), but we do have Partridge CS-15 (heavy wire), TMC 300 (medium
heavy) and maybe also Mustad 94720 (light). And of course anything can
be ordered from the web nowadays.

--
Jarmo Hurri

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[Jarmo Hurri]

Jarmo> I need to have streamers which have large silhouette, but which
Jarmo> I can cast with a 5wt or a 6wt line. ... (If you have strong
Jarmo> doubts about this, please let me know.)

Eh, I have to clarify this before anyone even tries to answer. Of
course it is possible to use, say, a 5wt line if the hook size is
small enough. But I have the desire to go as high as hook size 4. (The
article I read claims that this is realistic.)

--
Jarmo Hurri

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[Jarmo Hurri]

Jarmo> I need to have streamers which have large silhouette, but which
Jarmo> I can cast with a 5wt or a 6wt line. ... (If you have strong
Jarmo> doubts about this, please let me know.)

Eh, I have to clarify this before anyone even tries to answer. Of
course it is possible to use, say, a 5wt line if the hook size is
small enough. But I have the desire to go as high as hook size 4. (The
article I read claims that this is realistic.)

--
Jarmo Hurri

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[Mike Connor]

"Jarmo Hurri" > wrote in message
...
>
> Jarmo> I need to have streamers which have large silhouette, but which
> Jarmo> I can cast with a 5wt or a 6wt line. ... (If you have strong
> Jarmo> doubts about this, please let me know.)
>
> Eh, I have to clarify this before anyone even tries to answer. Of
> course it is possible to use, say, a 5wt line if the hook size is
> small enough. But I have the desire to go as high as hook size 4. (The
> article I read claims that this is realistic.)
>
> --
> Jarmo Hurri
>

The Rangely style streamers have constructed wings of feather fibre, and
this makes them rather difficult to cast with light gear. I only ever tried
a couple in this style, and then gave up on them. If you want large
streamers which can be cast with light gear, I would suggest you go for
synthetics, or at least hair wings. Tube flies are also a good alternative.

TL
MC

[Jarmo Hurri]

Mike> The Rangely style streamers have constructed wings of feather
Mike> fibre, and this makes them rather difficult to cast with light
Mike> gear.

Hi Mike,

These streamers have very slim profiles in the directions orthogonal
to the large silhouette - could this help in casting? (Still looking
for a reason why experienced fly fishermen would call these good
streamers for lightweight gear.)


--
Jarmo Hurri

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[Jarmo Hurri]

Mike> The Rangely style streamers have constructed wings of feather
Mike> fibre, and this makes them rather difficult to cast with light
Mike> gear.

Hi Mike,

These streamers have very slim profiles in the directions orthogonal
to the large silhouette - could this help in casting? (Still looking
for a reason why experienced fly fishermen would call these good
streamers for lightweight gear.)


--
Jarmo Hurri

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[Scott Seidman]

Jarmo Hurri > wrote in
:

>
> Mike> The Rangely style streamers have constructed wings of feather
> Mike> fibre, and this makes them rather difficult to cast with light
> Mike> gear.
>
> Hi Mike,
>
> These streamers have very slim profiles in the directions orthogonal
> to the large silhouette - could this help in casting? (Still looking
> for a reason why experienced fly fishermen would call these good
> streamers for lightweight gear.)
>
>

Isn't the Gray Ghost a Rangley style? I've never had any problem casting a
size 8 on a 5-wt. I don't know if you can push it to 4.

If you don't ridiculously load up on the floss body, you really aren't
casting much more than the hook. Pretty slim profile. The wings are
feathers and herl, but not particulary thick and heavy-- Arranged to give
large profile without much bulk

Scott

[Scott Seidman]

Jarmo Hurri > wrote in
:

>
> Mike> The Rangely style streamers have constructed wings of feather
> Mike> fibre, and this makes them rather difficult to cast with light
> Mike> gear.
>
> Hi Mike,
>
> These streamers have very slim profiles in the directions orthogonal
> to the large silhouette - could this help in casting? (Still looking
> for a reason why experienced fly fishermen would call these good
> streamers for lightweight gear.)
>
>

Isn't the Gray Ghost a Rangley style? I've never had any problem casting a
size 8 on a 5-wt. I don't know if you can push it to 4.

If you don't ridiculously load up on the floss body, you really aren't
casting much more than the hook. Pretty slim profile. The wings are
feathers and herl, but not particulary thick and heavy-- Arranged to give
large profile without much bulk

Scott

[George Adams]

Jamo,
I tie Rangely style streamers and bucktails on Mustad 6x long hooks up
to size 6 (78950?) and have no trouble handling them with either my
Orvis 5wt (8-1/2' Henry's Fork) or my St Croix 9' 6 wt. The thing is,
I'm fishing small to mediums sizes streams where 50' is a long cast,
and much of the fishing is accomplished with roll casts. Fishing
requiring longer casts could change the equation.

Most of the Rangeley designs were originally intended for trolling, and
were tied on the longer (8x+) hooks, or with a stinger hook. These
patterns have been adapted quite well to the somewhat shorter hooks for
stream fishing, and they are still favorites for fishing in northern
New England. I fish them deep, so I favor a heavier hook. One tip. If
you're tying with traditional feather wings or marabou, keep the wings
a bit short, or add a small bunch of bucktail between the body and the
wing to keep the wing from wrapping around the hook during casting.

I'll bet Peter Charles will have some valuable info on this subject.

[Jarmo Hurri]

Scott> Isn't the Gray Ghost a Rangley style? I've never had any
Scott> problem casting a size 8 on a 5-wt. I don't know if you can
Scott> push it to 4.

I think it is. But size 8 is pretty standard for a 5wt anyhow, so I
wouldn't expect any problems there.

Scott> If you don't ridiculously load up on the floss body, you really
Scott> aren't casting much more than the hook. Pretty slim profile.
Scott> The wings are feathers and herl, but not particulary thick and
Scott> heavy-- Arranged to give large profile without much bulk

That's what I thought too.

Decided to also harass people on the fly tying forum

http://flytyingforum.com/

because I noticed that they have a feather streamer swap going on.

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[Dave LaCourse]

Scott writes:

>Isn't the Gray Ghost a Rangley style?

Yes, otherwise called Carrie Stevens designed streamers.

I've never had any problem casting a
>size 8 on a 5-wt. I don't know if you can push it to 4.
>

On the Rapid, when using a streamer, think BIG. So, I have had no problem
casting a size 2 Gray/Black/Green Ghosts and other Stevens ties with a 6
weight, sometime even a 5 weight. Great flies, btw.

[Jarmo Hurri]

George> I tie Rangely style streamers and bucktails on Mustad 6x long
George> hooks up to size 6 (78950?) and have no trouble handling them
George> with either my Orvis 5wt (8-1/2' Henry's Fork) or my St Croix
George> 9' 6 wt. The thing is, I'm fishing small to mediums sizes
George> streams where 50' is a long cast, and much of the fishing is
George> accomplished with roll casts. Fishing requiring longer casts
George> could change the equation.

Still, good to hear.

George> Most of the Rangeley designs were originally intended for
George> trolling, and were tied on the longer (8x+) hooks, or with a
George> stinger hook. These patterns have been adapted quite well to
George> the somewhat shorter hooks for stream fishing, and they are
George> still favorites for fishing in northern New England. I fish
George> them deep, so I favor a heavier hook.

Good point about hook length. The Partridge hook is something like
10x.

George> One tip. If you're tying with traditional feather wings or
George> marabou, keep the wings a bit short, or add a small bunch of
George> bucktail between the body and the wing to keep the wing from
George> wrapping around the hook during casting.

I'll keep this in mind. The only problem is that during the winter,
it's difficult to experiment with different variations.

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[Jarmo Hurri]

Dave> On the Rapid, when using a streamer, think BIG. So, I have had
Dave> no problem casting a size 2 Gray/Black/Green Ghosts and other
Dave> Stevens ties with a 6 weight, sometime even a 5 weight.

Ahh, this is what I wanted to hear. :-) Any observations on whether
these streamers tend to swim on their side (and whether it's related
to hook weight)?

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[JohnR]

Jarmo,

The place to get the best info would be the Streamers group on Yahoo.com.
This group is dedicated to New England style streamers. Go to the Groups
section and Yahoo and do a search on Streamers. I'm sure you'll get the info
you need.

Hope this helps

John
"Jarmo Hurri" > wrote in message
...
>
> Jarmo> I need to have streamers which have large silhouette, but which
> Jarmo> I can cast with a 5wt or a 6wt line. ... (If you have strong
> Jarmo> doubts about this, please let me know.)
>
> Eh, I have to clarify this before anyone even tries to answer. Of
> course it is possible to use, say, a 5wt line if the hook size is
> small enough. But I have the desire to go as high as hook size 4. (The
> article I read claims that this is realistic.)
>
> --
> Jarmo Hurri
>
> Commercial email countermeasures included in header email
> address. Remove all garbage from header email address when replying,
> or just use .

[Mike Connor]

"Jarmo Hurri" > wrote in message
...
>
> Mike> The Rangely style streamers have constructed wings of feather
> Mike> fibre, and this makes them rather difficult to cast with light
> Mike> gear.
>
> Hi Mike,
>
> These streamers have very slim profiles in the directions orthogonal
> to the large silhouette - could this help in casting? (Still looking
> for a reason why experienced fly fishermen would call these good
> streamers for lightweight gear.)
>
>
> --
> Jarmo Hurri
>


The light variations of these streamers should be OK, even in very large
sizes, but the original constructed wing designs get waterlogged very
quickly, and are quite heavy as a result. Also, if you use light hooks, you
may have a problem with the flies not swimming correctly. The heavy wire
hooks act as a "keel" in the water.The feathers themselves are relatively
buoyant. Most of the originals were designed for trolling ( "Trailing" is
the correct term, but everybody uses the term "trolling"). And so casting
was not a problem.

I use Grey Ghosts, and a couple of other such patterns now and then, but on
2xL8 heavy wire hooks, and using an #8 weight.

I like the looks of these flies, and as I said, I did try a couple for a
while on light gear, but my preference for flies of this size, would still
be hairwings, and preferably with synthetics, as they don´t become
waterlogged.

It seems that not many dress the full Carrie Stevens type of streamers any
more anyway. According to my info, the wings of these flies were constructed
separately, and then mounted on the hook. I have seen quite a few such
flies, ( Grey Ghost, etc)where not all the original materials were used, and
also only tied with single cock hackles etc. Such flies will of course be a
lot easier to cast on light gear. But they will also not give you a very
solid silhouette.

Only real way to find out if they are suited to your purposes is to try them
out. Peter Charles can probably give you more info on this.

TL
MC

[Dave LaCourse]

Jarmo writes:

>Ahh, this is what I wanted to hear. :-) Any observations on whether
>these streamers tend to swim on their side (and whether it's related
>to hook weight)?

Not that I've ever noticed. But be careful and take George's advice about the
feathers getting caught in the hook. Properly tied, they can be killers.

[daytripper]

On 3 Feb 2005 05:38:37 -0800, "George Adams" > wrote:

>Jamo,
>I tie Rangely style streamers and bucktails on Mustad 6x long hooks up
>to size 6 (78950?) and have no trouble handling them with either my
>Orvis 5wt (8-1/2' Henry's Fork) or my St Croix 9' 6 wt. The thing is,
>I'm fishing small to mediums sizes streams where 50' is a long cast,
>and much of the fishing is accomplished with roll casts. Fishing
>requiring longer casts could change the equation.
>
>Most of the Rangeley designs were originally intended for trolling, and
>were tied on the longer (8x+) hooks, or with a stinger hook. These
>patterns have been adapted quite well to the somewhat shorter hooks for
>stream fishing, and they are still favorites for fishing in northern
>New England. I fish them deep, so I favor a heavier hook. One tip. If
>you're tying with traditional feather wings or marabou, keep the wings
>a bit short, or add a small bunch of bucktail between the body and the
>wing to keep the wing from wrapping around the hook during casting.
>
>I'll bet Peter Charles will have some valuable info on this subject.

fwiw, I believe the Carrie Stevens style Partridge hooks were 10XL...

[Jarmo Hurri]

John> Jarmo, The place to get the best info would be the Streamers
John> group on Yahoo.com. This group is dedicated to New England
John> style streamers.

Thanks, John, I'll take a look.

--
Jarmo Hurri

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[Jarmo Hurri]

Mike> Most of the originals were designed for trolling ("Trailing" is
Mike> the correct term, but everybody uses the term "trolling"). And
Mike> so casting was not a problem.

I guess the originals were something like 10x long - maybe 6x would be
a good compromise.

Mike> I like the looks of these flies, and as I said, I did try a
Mike> couple for a while on light gear, but my preference for flies of
Mike> this size, would still be hairwings, and preferably with
Mike> synthetics, as they don´t become waterlogged.

I guess stuff like Slinky Fibre or something similar could be used,
but I see two open questions. 1. What's a good synthetic material to
achieve good movement in running water? 2. How do you tie the fly so
that it has very slim profile (this can be achieved easily with
feather wings)?

Mike> The light variations of these streamers should be OK, even in
Mike> very large sizes, but the original constructed wing designs get
Mike> waterlogged very quickly, and are quite heavy as a result.
Mike> Also, if you use light hooks, you may have a problem with the
Mike> flies not swimming correctly. The heavy wire hooks act as a
Mike> "keel" in the water.The feathers themselves are relatively
Mike> buoyant.

Mike> It seems that not many dress the full Carrie Stevens type of
Mike> streamers any more anyway. According to my info, the wings of
Mike> these flies were constructed separately, and then mounted on the
Mike> hook. I have seen quite a few such flies, ( Grey Ghost,
Mike> etc)where not all the original materials were used, and also
Mike> only tied with single cock hackles etc. Such flies will of
Mike> course be a lot easier to cast on light gear. But they will also
Mike> not give you a very solid silhouette.

Good points.

Mike> Only real way to find out if they are suited to your purposes is
Mike> to try them out.

The problem is that wintertime is the time to tie flies, but it's
pretty hard to test them now...

--
Jarmo Hurri

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[Mike Connor]

"Jarmo Hurri" > wrote in message
...
<SNIP>
> I guess stuff like Slinky Fibre or something similar could be used,
> but I see two open questions. 1. What's a good synthetic material to
> achieve good movement in running water? 2. How do you tie the fly so
> that it has very slim profile (this can be achieved easily with
> feather wings)?
<SNIP>

I would go for a mixture at first. Some synthetic, there are loads to choose
from, as a "core wing" and Arctic fox. You could of course just use Arctic
fox if you don´t fancy synthetics. Sparse flies are usually much more
effective anyway. If you tie them sparse, they will be slim as well.

> The problem is that wintertime is the time to tie flies, but it's
> pretty hard to test them now...
>
Indeed, and I sympathise. At least in my case, I hope to remedy that quite
soon! :)

Looking at the patterns in some of my books etc, the Rangely style flies
have often been altered almost beyond recognition. As I said, many with just
two cock hackles for a wing, no cheeks, or eyes etc. These will work
sometimes, but according to your original post that is not what you are
looking for. If you want a solid silhouette, movement, some translucence,
then I would go for something like this; ( Just general examples)

http://members.ij.net/danscustomflys/StripedBassFlies.htm

but tied a lot slimmer and sparser, and on long shank hooks, or with
"stingers" ( Trailing single or treble). The range of possibilities is
massive in the meantime.

You can easily use the Rangeley streamers as a "base pattern", and use hair
etc to copy them. Usually it is better to work from the baitfish you are
trying to represent though. Many of the original Rangely style streamers,
are pure fantasy. They look nice, and may even catch a fish occasionally.
But for casting and fishing purposes on light gear, I don´t think they are
anywhere near as good as they should be. There are far better alternatives.

There are many problems with large sized feather fibre lures for casting.
You can still dress a few, and try them when you get the chance. It is
always better to have one´s own experience of these things.

> --
> Jarmo Hurri

TL
MC

[Jarmo Hurri]

Mike> If you want a solid silhouette, movement, some translucence,
Mike> then I would go for something like this; ( Just general
Mike> examples)

Mike> http://members.ij.net/danscustomflys/StripedBassFlies.htm

Mike> but tied a lot slimmer and sparser, and on long shank hooks, or
Mike> with "stingers" ( Trailing single or treble). The range of
Mike> possibilities is massive in the meantime.

I will start experimenting, first by taking an inventory of the
different types of materials available.

Mike> You can easily use the Rangeley streamers as a "base pattern",
Mike> and use hair etc to copy them. Usually it is better to work
Mike> from the baitfish you are trying to represent though.

One of my objectives is to make some really big "trout flies". If you
read the reports from the Lappland clave from last year, you know
why. :-)

Thanks for the help, Mike.

--
Jarmo Hurri

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[Mike Connor]

"Jarmo Hurri" > wrote in message
...
>SNIP>
> Thanks for the help, Mike.
>
> --
> Jarmo Hurri
>

Yeah well, I am not sure I helped you much at all! But I appreciate the
sentiment.

TL
MC

[Vaughan Hurry]

Jarmo Hurri wrote:
> One of my objectives is to make some really big "trout flies". If you
> read the reports from the Lappland clave from last year, you know
> why. :-)
>
> Thanks for the help, Mike.
>
Jarmo,

Take a look at this or some of his other patterns, might be something
you can steal.

http://www.vigsbigflies.com/id204.htm

And these guys have some nice hooks for this type of streamer. I bought
some with the same thing in mind. The #8s I bought are way too small and
I am leaning towards #4s. I suspect #2s would be better trolling flies
than casting flies.

http://www.belvoirdale.com/

cheers

Vaughan

[Jarmo Hurri]

Hi Vaughan,

Glad to see you here. We've got a common interest in this, don't
we? :-)

Vaughan> Take a look at this or some of his other patterns, might be
Vaughan> something you can steal.

Vaughan> http://www.vigsbigflies.com/id204.htm

Pretty damn good-looking flies, I must say. I'm not much of an artist,
so I definitely need patterns like these to start with.

Vaughan> And these guys have some nice hooks for this type of
Vaughan> streamer. I bought some with the same thing in mind. The #8s
Vaughan> I bought are way too small and I am leaning towards #4s. I
Vaughan> suspect #2s would be better trolling flies than casting
Vaughan> flies.

Vaughan> http://www.belvoirdale.com/

These are the hooks that got the best reviews in the streamer section
of globalflyfisher. Size 4 is the one I am aiming for right now. But I
also plan to tie some *really* big ones (I've already got the formulae
for these), assuming that we can take an 8wt or a 9wt along. I am
going to make sure that our success will not be hampered by fly size!

I haven't been able to buy that digital camera yet - selection
anxiety, too many models to choose from - but as soon as I do, I will
email you pictures of my experiments.

Now I've got to continue tying a batch of ESPs. We'll keep in touch.

--
Jarmo Hurri

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[Peter Charles]

On 3 Feb 2005 05:38:37 -0800, "George Adams" >
wrote:


>
>I'll bet Peter Charles will have some valuable info on this subject.

Actually, not much as I don't tie this style of streamer anymore. On
my last trip to the Rapid, I bought a few local ties and caught fish
on those. The more time I spend with streamers, the less interest I
have in fishing the classic style pattterns as they come with a host
of built-in limitations. They obviously work and I've caught fish on
them but I prefer different approaches now.

Still, it's a great project for the winter. Jarmo, do enjoy, they're
great patterns and a nice piece of tradition.

Peter

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