Rethinking it all again, again...
 

On Apr 12, 2:18 pm, Scott Seidman wrote:
wrote in news:1176370200.579014.314410
@d57g2000hsg.googlegroups.com:

The only reason I am hanging on here is to help accelerate that demise
in any way I can.

Mike, that would make you a creep. And a childish creep at that.

--
Scott
Reverse name to reply

Indeed? That is a very interesting observation. What is your opinion
on people who call others nazi homos, or a variety of other choice
epithets? Nice guys? Pillars of society? Shining lights for youthful
fly-anglers? Paragons of virtue?

I have already been called a creep several times, it is boring. If you
can´t think of something new to help with the circus then I rather
fear your input is superfluous.

MC

Rethinking it all again, again...
 

On 12 Apr 2007 00:02:01 -0700, "riverman" wrote:

An open letter to the current participants in the interminable uproar
on ROFF:

This is getting nuts. Someone GROW UP for gods sake. There's an easy
opportunity to win this unwinnable war. Who will be the first to see
it?

I spent a few hours last night reading through the origins of the
recent food-fight here, and getting a sense of the bigger picture. Its
not worth going into too many details without starting a hopeless
Israeli-Arab "He started it" endless debate, but I think I can safely
say that this entire thing HAS started, has evolved, and now has wings
of its own, and is pretty much decimating the environment here. There
are far too many things out of whack from this for a simple unraveling
of facts to solve, but there is a pretty clear trend of events that is
important.

Back in the 'Catch and Release' thread, shortly after several folks
on ROFF (Ken included) gave Mike good wishes for his schoolboy
elatedness at his new love affair, Mike posted some very distasteful
and (to us Ummericans, anyway) politically incorrect and emotionally-
charged opinions about gays. Ken, true to form and true to his morals,
came out clearly against it, and in the bumbling spar-and-parry that
ensued, both sides dug in deeper until pretty much open warfare was
declared, but in a pseudo-detente.

After that, several periods of relative calm ensued, but on several
occasions, Mike or Ken baited the other, either deliberately or in
self-depreciating jest, which almost invariably caused the catfight
warfare to pick up where it left off. Until we get to now, where it is
gloves-off, no holds barred, monothematic, and far too many offenses
on all sides and far too many toes stepped on for anyone to claim that
they still have clean hands.

Its a barroom brawl, the bar is getting all busted up. Who cares at
this point how it started or what they are fighting about.

The solution has got to come from someone taking the moral high
ground, and walking away from it. Boom, just like that; drop it and
don't take the bait any more.

No one can say "well, ____ should do it because they are wrong."
Everyone is wrong, because the wrongness of this whole mess is not
about homophobia, or fighting unjust causes with just or unjust means;
the wrongness of this whole mess is that the gang warfare here is
ruining ROFF for many people; lurkers and old-timers. We will never
resolve the former, we can only resolve the latter.


So here's the chance for one of you to grab the golden ring, win the
argument by winning the 'this whole thing has grown beyond stupid, and
I'll be the first to recognize that we're engaging in repeating
behaviors that keep producing the same outcome, and I'll step off this
train first."

So who's it going to be. There might not be another chance to 'win'
this, because its gone well beyond being unwinnable.

You're fairly new around here. This "war" _is_ ROFF, except it isn't a
"war." You're absolutely right about no one being able to "win" it, but
it's because there's nothing to "win." "Mike Connor" has been acting
like this since he showed up. And there is no "moral high ground" on
ROFF because there is no "moral ground" at all - it's just a newsgroup.

But here's the funny part - no one can "kill" it, ruin it, or otherwise
damage it because there's nothing actually tangible to kill, ruin, or
damage. And here's the cool part - it's an _absolute_ democracy of
sorts - no one has any absolute "superiority." Darned near anyone can
start out and remain as able to participate as any other (or simply and
abruptly walk away), and regardless of the actions of any one person, I
suspect there will be, more or less, just as many folks participating in
ROFF in 5 years as there were 5 years ago.

As an aside, but in a related vein, I've never quite understood those
who seem to have a real problem with folks acting different in real life
than they are "on ROFF," if that's what they choose to do. Heck, it's
always admitted and acknowledged, right in the complaint, that ROFF
isn't "real life" - no one ever complains that Joe Blow acts differently
on whatever other online forum/NG than they do on ROFF, it's always
"different in _real life_."

And you're not the first to make a plea for peace, and you'll likely not
be the last. But don't feel bad - they all get just as generally
ignored as yours will be. If you want what you think is, well, "good
order," then maybe you ought to set up your own forum with rules you
like and enforce them as you see fit. I can see no reason why the
"traffic" there would be any better than the "traffic" at the myriad
other "controlled" forums all over the 'net.

As for me, I know we're not solving world problems here - it's mostly
entertainment with an occasional serious bit, but I'd rather be one of
the ****bag dumbo pigs and having a good ol' time laughing with, at, and
about you, myself, and the rest of the voluntary inmates than I would
over on some tight-assed forum with a few dip****s congratulating
themselves on how superior they are.

Maybe it'll help, maybe not, but I'm pretty sure it, too, won't change a
whole lot...which is the way it's supposed to be...

TC,
R
--riverman

Rethinking it all again, again...
 

On 12 Apr 2007 12:18:56 GMT, Scott Seidman
wrote:

wrote in news:1176370200.579014.314410
:

The only reason I am hanging on here is to help accelerate that demise
in any way I can.


Mike, that would make you a creep. And a childish creep at that.

Naw, it would make just as impotent here as he is everywhere else,
including his own little life...just a sad little nappy-headed Nazi homo
ho...

TC,
R

Rethinking it all again, again...
 

On Apr 12, 2:33 pm, wrote:
On 12 Apr 2007 00:02:01 -0700, "riverman" wrote:



An open letter to the current participants in the interminable uproar
on ROFF:

This is getting nuts. Someone GROW UP for gods sake. There's an easy
opportunity to win this unwinnable war. Who will be the first to see
it?

I spent a few hours last night reading through the origins of the
recent food-fight here, and getting a sense of the bigger picture. Its
not worth going into too many details without starting a hopeless
Israeli-Arab "He started it" endless debate, but I think I can safely
say that this entire thing HAS started, has evolved, and now has wings
of its own, and is pretty much decimating the environment here. There
are far too many things out of whack from this for a simple unraveling
of facts to solve, but there is a pretty clear trend of events that is
important.

Back in the 'Catch and Release' thread, shortly after several folks
on ROFF (Ken included) gave Mike good wishes for his schoolboy
elatedness at his new love affair, Mike posted some very distasteful
and (to us Ummericans, anyway) politically incorrect and emotionally-
charged opinions about gays. Ken, true to form and true to his morals,
came out clearly against it, and in the bumbling spar-and-parry that
ensued, both sides dug in deeper until pretty much open warfare was
declared, but in a pseudo-detente.

After that, several periods of relative calm ensued, but on several
occasions, Mike or Ken baited the other, either deliberately or in
self-depreciating jest, which almost invariably caused the catfight
warfare to pick up where it left off. Until we get to now, where it is
gloves-off, no holds barred, monothematic, and far too many offenses
on all sides and far too many toes stepped on for anyone to claim that
they still have clean hands.

Its a barroom brawl, the bar is getting all busted up. Who cares at
this point how it started or what they are fighting about.

The solution has got to come from someone taking the moral high
ground, and walking away from it. Boom, just like that; drop it and
don't take the bait any more.

No one can say "well, ____ should do it because they are wrong."
Everyone is wrong, because the wrongness of this whole mess is not
about homophobia, or fighting unjust causes with just or unjust means;
the wrongness of this whole mess is that the gang warfare here is
ruining ROFF for many people; lurkers and old-timers. We will never
resolve the former, we can only resolve the latter.

So here's the chance for one of you to grab the golden ring, win the
argument by winning the 'this whole thing has grown beyond stupid, and
I'll be the first to recognize that we're engaging in repeating
behaviors that keep producing the same outcome, and I'll step off this
train first."

So who's it going to be. There might not be another chance to 'win'
this, because its gone well beyond being unwinnable.

You're fairly new around here. This "war" _is_ ROFF, except it isn't a
"war." You're absolutely right about no one being able to "win" it, but
it's because there's nothing to "win." "Mike Connor" has been acting
like this since he showed up. And there is no "moral high ground" on
ROFF because there is no "moral ground" at all - it's just a newsgroup.

But here's the funny part - no one can "kill" it, ruin it, or otherwise
damage it because there's nothing actually tangible to kill, ruin, or
damage. And here's the cool part - it's an _absolute_ democracy of
sorts - no one has any absolute "superiority." Darned near anyone can
start out and remain as able to participate as any other (or simply and
abruptly walk away), and regardless of the actions of any one person, I
suspect there will be, more or less, just as many folks participating in
ROFF in 5 years as there were 5 years ago.

As an aside, but in a related vein, I've never quite understood those
who seem to have a real problem with folks acting different in real life
than they are "on ROFF," if that's what they choose to do. Heck, it's
always admitted and acknowledged, right in the complaint, that ROFF
isn't "real life" - no one ever complains that Joe Blow acts differently
on whatever other online forum/NG than they do on ROFF, it's always
"different in _real life_."

And you're not the first to make a plea for peace, and you'll likely not
be the last. But don't feel bad - they all get just as generally
ignored as yours will be. If you want what you think is, well, "good
order," then maybe you ought to set up your own forum with rules you
like and enforce them as you see fit. I can see no reason why the
"traffic" there would be any better than the "traffic" at the myriad
other "controlled" forums all over the 'net.

As for me, I know we're not solving world problems here - it's mostly
entertainment with an occasional serious bit, but I'd rather be one of
the ****bag dumbo pigs and having a good ol' time laughing with, at, and
about you, myself, and the rest of the voluntary inmates than I would
over on some tight-assed forum with a few dip****s congratulating
themselves on how superior they are.

Maybe it'll help, maybe not, but I'm pretty sure it, too, won't change a
whole lot...which is the way it's supposed to be...

TC,
R

--riverman

Time for a nappy change dumbo, your **** is overflowing.

MC

Rethinking it all again, again...
 

On Apr 12, 2:40 pm, wrote:
On 12 Apr 2007 12:18:56 GMT, Scott Seidman
wrote:

wrote in news:1176370200.579014.314410
:

The only reason I am hanging on here is to help accelerate that demise
in any way I can.

Mike, that would make you a creep. And a childish creep at that.

Naw, it would make just as impotent here as he is everywhere else,
including his own little life...just a sad little nappy-headed Nazi homo
ho...

TC,
R

I wonder how sad that makes someone who goes around calling people sad
little nappy-headed nazi homos? You are a piece of filth. The only
reason you stay here is that here you can get away with being a piece
of filth.

MC

Rethinking it all again, again...
 

On Apr 12, 2:33 pm, wrote:
On 12 Apr 2007 00:02:01 -0700, "riverman" wrote:



An open letter to the current participants in the interminable uproar
on ROFF:

This is getting nuts. Someone GROW UP for gods sake. There's an easy
opportunity to win this unwinnable war. Who will be the first to see
it?

I spent a few hours last night reading through the origins of the
recent food-fight here, and getting a sense of the bigger picture. Its
not worth going into too many details without starting a hopeless
Israeli-Arab "He started it" endless debate, but I think I can safely
say that this entire thing HAS started, has evolved, and now has wings
of its own, and is pretty much decimating the environment here. There
are far too many things out of whack from this for a simple unraveling
of facts to solve, but there is a pretty clear trend of events that is
important.

Back in the 'Catch and Release' thread, shortly after several folks
on ROFF (Ken included) gave Mike good wishes for his schoolboy
elatedness at his new love affair, Mike posted some very distasteful
and (to us Ummericans, anyway) politically incorrect and emotionally-
charged opinions about gays. Ken, true to form and true to his morals,
came out clearly against it, and in the bumbling spar-and-parry that
ensued, both sides dug in deeper until pretty much open warfare was
declared, but in a pseudo-detente.

After that, several periods of relative calm ensued, but on several
occasions, Mike or Ken baited the other, either deliberately or in
self-depreciating jest, which almost invariably caused the catfight
warfare to pick up where it left off. Until we get to now, where it is
gloves-off, no holds barred, monothematic, and far too many offenses
on all sides and far too many toes stepped on for anyone to claim that
they still have clean hands.

Its a barroom brawl, the bar is getting all busted up. Who cares at
this point how it started or what they are fighting about.

The solution has got to come from someone taking the moral high
ground, and walking away from it. Boom, just like that; drop it and
don't take the bait any more.

No one can say "well, ____ should do it because they are wrong."
Everyone is wrong, because the wrongness of this whole mess is not
about homophobia, or fighting unjust causes with just or unjust means;
the wrongness of this whole mess is that the gang warfare here is
ruining ROFF for many people; lurkers and old-timers. We will never
resolve the former, we can only resolve the latter.

So here's the chance for one of you to grab the golden ring, win the
argument by winning the 'this whole thing has grown beyond stupid, and
I'll be the first to recognize that we're engaging in repeating
behaviors that keep producing the same outcome, and I'll step off this
train first."

So who's it going to be. There might not be another chance to 'win'
this, because its gone well beyond being unwinnable.

You're fairly new around here. This "war" _is_ ROFF, except it isn't a
"war." You're absolutely right about no one being able to "win" it, but
it's because there's nothing to "win." "Mike Connor" has been acting
like this since he showed up. And there is no "moral high ground" on
ROFF because there is no "moral ground" at all - it's just a newsgroup.

But here's the funny part - no one can "kill" it, ruin it, or otherwise
damage it because there's nothing actually tangible to kill, ruin, or
damage. And here's the cool part - it's an _absolute_ democracy of
sorts - no one has any absolute "superiority." Darned near anyone can
start out and remain as able to participate as any other (or simply and
abruptly walk away), and regardless of the actions of any one person, I
suspect there will be, more or less, just as many folks participating in
ROFF in 5 years as there were 5 years ago.

As an aside, but in a related vein, I've never quite understood those
who seem to have a real problem with folks acting different in real life
than they are "on ROFF," if that's what they choose to do. Heck, it's
always admitted and acknowledged, right in the complaint, that ROFF
isn't "real life" - no one ever complains that Joe Blow acts differently
on whatever other online forum/NG than they do on ROFF, it's always
"different in _real life_."

And you're not the first to make a plea for peace, and you'll likely not
be the last. But don't feel bad - they all get just as generally
ignored as yours will be. If you want what you think is, well, "good
order," then maybe you ought to set up your own forum with rules you
like and enforce them as you see fit. I can see no reason why the
"traffic" there would be any better than the "traffic" at the myriad
other "controlled" forums all over the 'net.

As for me, I know we're not solving world problems here - it's mostly
entertainment with an occasional serious bit, but I'd rather be one of
the ****bag dumbo pigs and having a good ol' time laughing with, at, and
about you, myself, and the rest of the voluntary inmates than I would
over on some tight-assed forum with a few dip****s congratulating
themselves on how superior they are.

Maybe it'll help, maybe not, but I'm pretty sure it, too, won't change a
whole lot...which is the way it's supposed to be...

TC,
R


You apparently don´t know what democracy is either. Hardly surprising.

MC

Rethinking it all again, again...
 

Rethinking it all again, again...
 

On Apr 12, 3:09 pm, Scott Seidman wrote:
wrote in news:1176380869.916237.321610
@n76g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:





On Apr 12, 2:18 pm, Scott Seidman wrote:
wrote in news:1176370200.579014.314410
@d57g2000hsg.googlegroups.com:

The only reason I am hanging on here is to help accelerate that
demise
in any way I can.

Mike, that would make you a creep. And a childish creep at that.

--
Scott
Reverse name to reply

Indeed? That is a very interesting observation. What is your opinion
on people who call others nazi homos, or a variety of other choice
epithets? Nice guys? Pillars of society? Shining lights for youthful
fly-anglers? Paragons of virtue?

I have already been called a creep several times, it is boring. If you
can´t think of something new to help with the circus then I rather
fear your input is superfluous.

MC

Mike,

Based on a person's behavior, I draw my opinions. Just because I don't
spend my time here spouting off my opinion of others does not mean I do
not have opinions of them. That said, I don't need you to tell me what
those opinions are, or to whom I should state them. Your apparent
assumption that I need your guidance in such matters is central to your
arrogance problem. Should the behavior of others start interfering with
my fair use of this board, as is your stated creepy goal (once again, "if
I can't enjoy it, nobody will", a goal a petulant five year old would be
proud to pursue), I will let them know, in no uncertain terms.

Further, I wasn't necessarily calling you a name. I was telling you what
I think of you. There is a difference. Illustratively, I can't believe
anyone reading roff could conceivably believe you are a "nappy-headed
nazi homo", which you have been called numerous times. Many, however,
would glady second "creep". You're on a tear George Gherke himself would
be proud of. I suspect he's looking down on all this right now,
snickering about how right he was about you.

--
Scott
Reverse name to reply

Here, the word "creep" is simply a general insult. I assumed nothing
at all, I merely asked a few questions. It seems my ideas of honour
and fairness differ very considerably from others on this group. I owe
you no explanations, nor do I owe anybody else any. I will continue to
pursue my aims as long as I consider it politic to do so. Since I don
´t believe in anything at all, much less a saintly Gehrke looking down
from somewhere, I must perforce undertake my own endeavours in
defending myself against those who would malign me. What you write is
of passing interest, but it gets me no nearer to my target. What you
believe is also irrelevant. It is not a case of "if I can't enjoy it,
nobody will", it is a case of doing my absolute utmost to ensure that
these people can not continue to malign me, here or elsewhere, and
preferably to ensure that they don´t do it to anybody else either.

MC

Rethinking it all again, again...
 

Jan Mikkelsen wrote:
...
/Jan "One who would hate to see also ROFF die"

No need to worry about that, roff isn't going anywhere.
Those who imagine they can disrupt roff with foul-mouthed
invective and vitriol are deluding themselves. Their only
accomplishment will be an irreparably damaged reputation
here and a permanent Google record of their foolishness.

So, if watching the pompous self-destruct before your eyes
is as enjoyable for you as it is for me just sit back and
enjoy the show. If not, put the loon in a killfile.

--
Ken Fortenberry
P.S. to Joe F., I *told* you the "diaper insult" was gonna
be the next big thing. Do I know my loonies or what ? ;-)

Rethinking it all again, again...
 

On 12 Apr 2007 13:09:09 GMT, Scott Seidman
wrote:

wrote in news:1176380869.916237.321610
:

On Apr 12, 2:18 pm, Scott Seidman wrote:
wrote in news:1176370200.579014.314410
@d57g2000hsg.googlegroups.com:

The only reason I am hanging on here is to help accelerate that
demise
in any way I can.

Mike, that would make you a creep. And a childish creep at that.

--
Scott
Reverse name to reply

Indeed? That is a very interesting observation. What is your opinion
on people who call others nazi homos, or a variety of other choice
epithets? Nice guys? Pillars of society? Shining lights for youthful
fly-anglers? Paragons of virtue?

I have already been called a creep several times, it is boring. If you
can´t think of something new to help with the circus then I rather
fear your input is superfluous.

MC



Mike,

Based on a person's behavior, I draw my opinions. Just because I don't
spend my time here spouting off my opinion of others does not mean I do
not have opinions of them. That said, I don't need you to tell me what
those opinions are, or to whom I should state them. Your apparent
assumption that I need your guidance in such matters is central to your
arrogance problem. Should the behavior of others start interfering with
my fair use of this board, as is your stated creepy goal (once again, "if
I can't enjoy it, nobody will", a goal a petulant five year old would be
proud to pursue), I will let them know, in no uncertain terms.

Further, I wasn't necessarily calling you a name. I was telling you what
I think of you. There is a difference. Illustratively, I can't believe
anyone reading roff could conceivably believe you are a "nappy-headed
nazi homo", which you have been called numerous times. Many, however,
would glady second "creep". You're on a tear George Gherke himself would
be proud of. I suspect he's looking down on all this right now,
snickering about how right he was about you.

Heck, even I don't actually believe he's _actually_ a nappy-headed Nazi
homo ho...I mean, who would actually pay HIM for sex...

HTH,
R...er, Dickie