Turning a fish upside down
 

"Wolfgang" wrote in news:5s5gs2F153pe0U1
@mid.individual.net:


"Tom Nakashima" wrote in message
...

Man doesn't lose equilibrium in water.

Not true.

Wolfgang



Correct. The semicircular canals have no problem, but the otolith organs
get confused because there is a bouyancy in addition to gravity. How
this manifests is interesting, but the bottom line is that a diver can
become very disoriented in water, enough that the most reliable way of
telling "which way is up" is to follow your air bubbles.

It's much like microgravity during space travel. Oddly, divers don't get
microgravity sickness like 50% of the astronauts, but that might have
something to do with the lenght of exposure.

One of the things that really gets astronauts hurling is odd visual cues.
Some of the compartments on the space station and shuttle, for example,
have different "up" directions, simply because thats how the things were
built. Walking (or floating) from a room with one orientation to the
next with different orientation could very well be the trigger for the
ride on the porcelain bus.

Underwater, though, I suppose visual cues can be very limited, and this
might contribute to disorientation.

I don't know why fish go into some sort of paralytic state when held
upside down, but it might be vestibular. Would be very interesting to
find out, anyway.

--
Scott
Reverse name to reply

Turning a fish upside down
 

rw wrote:
Tom Nakashima wrote:

I've been watching the "New Fly Fisher" which broadcast Sunday
mornings. Yesterday I learned that if you turn a fish upside down
while they're in the water, they'll lose equilibrium and won't
struggle. Makes it easy to unhook and release them.
-tom


It works with trout, but (in my experience) with whitefish.

Should be: NOT with whitefish.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

Turning a fish upside down
 

"rw" wrote in message
...
rw wrote:
Tom Nakashima wrote:

I've been watching the "New Fly Fisher" which broadcast Sunday
mornings. Yesterday I learned that if you turn a fish upside down
while they're in the water, they'll lose equilibrium and won't struggle.
Makes it easy to unhook and release them.
-tom


It works with trout, but (in my experience) with whitefish.

Should be: NOT with whitefish.


I guess you know the question's coming...
Why not whitefish, are their octavo-lateralis system different than trout?
-tom

Turning a fish upside down
 

"Tom Nakashima" wrote in
:

Why not whitefish, are their octavo-lateralis system different than
trout?

So far as I can remember, both have auditory, linear acceleration,
rotational acceleration, and lateral line components. We used to be
taught, by the way, that lateral line was to hold fish steady in a current.
Best evidence these days, which is extremely different from where we were
15 years ago, seems to be that the lateral line is for hunting (vibration
localization), and not for orientation in a current. Bony fish have
perfectly good semicircular canal and otolith systems for help with
orientation.

I think it remains to be seen whether the octavolateralis system is
involved in this semi-paralytic response.

--
Scott
Reverse name to reply

Turning a fish upside down
 

"rw" wrote


It works with trout, but (in my experience) with whitefish.

Should be: NOT with whitefish.




Whitefish get a bad rap, IMHO ( not here, rw, just in general ;-)

Two Whitey memories come to mind.

A.) Every year on a certain unnamed famous stream that feeds Hebgen G, in
a section little visited, the tricos bring tons of Whitefish up to feed on
top .... it's great fun but tough on the fly tier as removing trico spinner
patterns from the little whitefish mouths with forceps tears up my pattern
too damn quickly. I only do this once each year, if that on average, but
it is a day I look forward to as the year rolls round to August.

B.) On the Ranch section of the HFork down some from Millionaires Pool, 3
Japanese anglers took up stations and tried to fool some fish. They were
two males and a female. They fished a long time without success.

Then the female hooked a fish, one that pulled hard and kept her busy some
time. The male nearest her had visible drool running down his chin and I
don't think it was over her, rather over her HFork fish ( HF is very popular
with Japanese anglers, and many I met seem to approach it with near
religious zeal ).

As the fish neared the net, it became clear that it was a large Whitefish.

The painfully envious male angler now totally changed composure and started
pointing and chanting loudly so the other male would certainly hear. He
repeatedly shouted things that, to me, sounded like" Yoko mattsui napanuso
WHITEFISH nutsuimonaka !! " then laughed a loud, but distinctly un-genuine,
guffaw. He repeated this to the point that the female angler looked near
tears.

Several times on the Fork I've wished I spoke some Japanese, because I meet
some very nice people and would like to be able to share more easily. I
run into one angler each year and we struggle for an hour or more as he
shows me photos on his digital camera of fishing in his country and Fork
rainbows he has fooled ... he gave me a wonderful cut-wing Flav tie of his
own making and using wing material that I "think" he said was only available
in Japan. ... it was truly lovely.

BUT, this time I'd have given $50 to know how to say, in Japanese, " That
Whitefish is a lot nicer catch than anything you've gotten, asshole."

---- FWIW, ALL injured male egos, regardless of country of origin can be
disgusting to watch at work. ----- ( NOT something I learned today, but
still worth bitching about )


OH, OH, and 93) I once caught a HUGE Whitey out of the Big Wood near that
access by the RV park ... really huge, 30++ inches ... kinda cool on a #18
Brassie

Turning a fish upside down
 

On Dec 10, 3:04 pm, Scott Seidman wrote:

I think it remains to be seen whether the octavolateralis system is
involved in this semi-paralytic response.

Did you ever get that article written, Scott, or are you just going to
dribble it out to us here on ROFF?

:-)

Bill

Turning a fish upside down
 

Tom Nakashima wrote:
"rw" wrote in message
...

rw wrote:

Tom Nakashima wrote:


I've been watching the "New Fly Fisher" which broadcast Sunday
mornings. Yesterday I learned that if you turn a fish upside down
while they're in the water, they'll lose equilibrium and won't struggle.
Makes it easy to unhook and release them.
-tom


It works with trout, but (in my experience) with whitefish.


Should be: NOT with whitefish.



I guess you know the question's coming...
Why not whitefish, are their octavo-lateralis system different than trout?
-tom

I don't know why. It just seems to be the case. In general, I find
whitefish to be far less cooperative than trout when it comes to
removing hooks.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

Turning a fish upside down
 

Larry L typed:
"rw" wrote


It works with trout, but (in my experience) with whitefish.

Should be: NOT with whitefish.
Whitefish get a bad rap, IMHO ( not here, rw, just in general ;-)

Two Whitey memories come to mind.

Only one comes to mind for me:
"I'm gonna get me a shotgun and shoot all the whities I see
I'm gonna get me a shotgun and shoot all the whities I see
When I shoot all the whities I see, then whitey he won't bother me
I'm gonna get me a shotgun and shoot all the whities I see" - Garrett Morris
--
TL,
Tim
-------------------------
http://css.sbcma.com/timj

Turning a fish upside down
 

Turning a fish upside down
 

"Scott Seidman" wrote in message
. 1.4...
"Tom Nakashima" wrote in
:

Why not whitefish, are their octavo-lateralis system different than
trout?

So far as I can remember, both have auditory, linear acceleration,
rotational acceleration, and lateral line components. We used to be
taught, by the way, that lateral line was to hold fish steady in a
current.
Best evidence these days, which is extremely different from where we were
15 years ago, seems to be that the lateral line is for hunting (vibration
localization), and not for orientation in a current. Bony fish have
perfectly good semicircular canal and otolith systems for help with
orientation.

I think it remains to be seen whether the octavolateralis system is
involved in this semi-paralytic response.
Scott
Reverse name to reply

I was doing some research on lateral line, yes it seems they're used for
detection of vibration localization to sense movement. A good example
would be watching fish swim in schools when they dart in the same direction
and maintain a tight group.

I'm going to take a stab...
Sensitivity to sound differs among fish species. Probably the biggest factor
is how the inner ear reacts with the swim bladder. The swim bladder is the
gas filled sac which maintains buoyancy. Since fish relay on sound pressure
waves, I'm thinking, by turning a fish upside down it upsets how the brain
interprets the sound pressure and they become disoriented to a state of
docilely.
-tom