Tappered leaders and tippet material
 

Here is my question, do you tie the fly directly to the leader or you
add a lenght of tippet materiel to it? If you tie the fly directly to
the leader, when do you discard the leader?

Learning

Thanks

"clamus" wrote in message
...
Here is my question, do you tie the fly directly to the leader or you add
a lenght of tippet materiel to it? If you tie the fly directly to the
leader, when do you discard the leader?

Learning


Fair question.

Leaders have a 'sweet spot' where the length is just right to turn over a
fly, present the fly well, and keep the fly far enough from the flyline to
not spook the fish. New tapered leaders are usually quite a bit longer than
that sweet spot, so you have two choices with a brand new leader: either
fish it as is until you have cut it back a few times and it is at the sweet
spot, or else just cut it back to the sweet spot immediately. People do
both.

Once its at (or just shorter than) that length, you have only one option:
tie on some tippet. If you don't do this, you'll only get another dozen
flies out of the tippet and none of them will be at that good length. When
you DO tie on some tippet, you can get about 10 or 12 flies out of it before
you have to retie another section of tippet on. Then you can repeatedly
replace the tippet and keep the leader at that good length for quite a
while, dozens and dozens and dozens of flies. Personally, I cut off the
tippet and retie a new length whenever the leader-tippet knot gets within
8-10 inches of the fly, or so. The knot is a slightly stiffer part of the
leader, and if it gets too close to the fly it will affect the turnover, and
also catch a lot of crud from the water and spook the fish. On the other
hand, I hate wasting all that tippet by discarding more than 10 inches.

Eventually, you will have cut the leader back until its into the thicker
section. At that point, tie on some thicker tippet, and then tie on the
tiny tippet to that and start the cycle all over. This way, you ought to get
several months or more out of the butt end of leader, and be able to cast
over 100 flies on it. Without using tippet, you will get about 15 flies on a
leader and have to discard them several times a day.

--riverman

Got that clamus?


"riverman" wrote in message
...

"clamus" wrote in message
...
Here is my question, do you tie the fly directly to the leader or you
add
a lenght of tippet materiel to it? If you tie the fly directly to the
leader, when do you discard the leader?

Learning


Fair question.

Leaders have a 'sweet spot' where the length is just right to turn over a
fly, present the fly well, and keep the fly far enough from the flyline to
not spook the fish. New tapered leaders are usually quite a bit longer
than
that sweet spot, so you have two choices with a brand new leader: either
fish it as is until you have cut it back a few times and it is at the
sweet
spot, or else just cut it back to the sweet spot immediately. People do
both.

Once its at (or just shorter than) that length, you have only one option:
tie on some tippet. If you don't do this, you'll only get another dozen
flies out of the tippet and none of them will be at that good length. When
you DO tie on some tippet, you can get about 10 or 12 flies out of it
before
you have to retie another section of tippet on. Then you can repeatedly
replace the tippet and keep the leader at that good length for quite a
while, dozens and dozens and dozens of flies. Personally, I cut off the
tippet and retie a new length whenever the leader-tippet knot gets within
8-10 inches of the fly, or so. The knot is a slightly stiffer part of the
leader, and if it gets too close to the fly it will affect the turnover,
and
also catch a lot of crud from the water and spook the fish. On the other
hand, I hate wasting all that tippet by discarding more than 10 inches.

Eventually, you will have cut the leader back until its into the thicker
section. At that point, tie on some thicker tippet, and then tie on the
tiny tippet to that and start the cycle all over. This way, you ought to
get
several months or more out of the butt end of leader, and be able to cast
over 100 flies on it. Without using tippet, you will get about 15 flies on
a
leader and have to discard them several times a day.

--riverman

"asadi" wrote in message
m...

"riverman" wrote in message
...

"clamus" wrote in message
...
Here is my question, do you tie the fly directly to the leader or you
add
a lenght of tippet materiel to it? If you tie the fly directly to the
leader, when do you discard the leader?

Learning


Fair question.

Leaders have a 'sweet spot' where the length is just right to turn over a
fly, present the fly well, and keep the fly far enough from the flyline
to
not spook the fish. New tapered leaders are usually quite a bit longer
than
that sweet spot, so you have two choices with a brand new leader: either
fish it as is until you have cut it back a few times and it is at the
sweet
spot, or else just cut it back to the sweet spot immediately. People do
both.

Once its at (or just shorter than) that length, you have only one option:
tie on some tippet. If you don't do this, you'll only get another dozen
flies out of the tippet and none of them will be at that good length.
When
you DO tie on some tippet, you can get about 10 or 12 flies out of it
before
you have to retie another section of tippet on. Then you can repeatedly
replace the tippet and keep the leader at that good length for quite a
while, dozens and dozens and dozens of flies. Personally, I cut off the
tippet and retie a new length whenever the leader-tippet knot gets within
8-10 inches of the fly, or so. The knot is a slightly stiffer part of the
leader, and if it gets too close to the fly it will affect the turnover,
and
also catch a lot of crud from the water and spook the fish. On the other
hand, I hate wasting all that tippet by discarding more than 10 inches.

Eventually, you will have cut the leader back until its into the thicker
section. At that point, tie on some thicker tippet, and then tie on the
tiny tippet to that and start the cycle all over. This way, you ought to
get
several months or more out of the butt end of leader, and be able to cast
over 100 flies on it. Without using tippet, you will get about 15 flies
on
a
leader and have to discard them several times a day.

--riverman

Got that clamus?


LOL. I read my post, and although it says precisely what I meant to say,
even I couldn't follow it.

OK, Clamus: your answer is: TIE ON SOME TIPPET. If you tie to the leader,
you will use it all up in a matter of days.

--riverman

"riverman" OK, Clamus: your answer is: TIE ON SOME TIPPET. If you tie to
the leader,
you will use it all up in a matter of days.

--riverman


Actually, I understood it...many posts here I do not...

john

"riverman" OK, Clamus: your answer is: TIE ON SOME TIPPET. If you tie to
the leader,
you will use it all up in a matter of days.

--riverman


Actually, I understood it...many posts here I do not...

john

"riverman" wrote in message
...

Leaders have a 'sweet spot' where the length is just right to turn over a
fly, present the fly well, and keep the fly far enough from the flyline to
not spook the fish. New tapered leaders are usually quite a bit longer
than
that sweet spot, so you have two choices with a brand new leader: either
fish it as is until you have cut it back a few times and it is at the
sweet
spot, or else just cut it back to the sweet spot immediately. People do
both.


[snip]

//ShowMyIgnorance = 1

I did not know that. Here I've sat... skinny, dumb, and happy....resting
easy in the knowledge that somehow the tapered leaders that I buy are
designed and manufactured to be more or less perzactly the correct taper and
length to turn over a dry fly properly after one adds a couple of feet of
tippet (allowing for some sensible calculation of tippet size vs. fly size).
Myron, you're upsetting my world view vis-a-vis flyfishing tackle. Please
'splain how one finds said sweet spot.

Damnit...cain't trust nothin no more.....

//ShowMyIgnorance = ......aw hell, let's just leave it on.......

Danl

"riverman" wrote in message
...

Leaders have a 'sweet spot' where the length is just right to turn over a
fly, present the fly well, and keep the fly far enough from the flyline to
not spook the fish. New tapered leaders are usually quite a bit longer
than
that sweet spot, so you have two choices with a brand new leader: either
fish it as is until you have cut it back a few times and it is at the
sweet
spot, or else just cut it back to the sweet spot immediately. People do
both.


[snip]

//ShowMyIgnorance = 1

I did not know that. Here I've sat... skinny, dumb, and happy....resting
easy in the knowledge that somehow the tapered leaders that I buy are
designed and manufactured to be more or less perzactly the correct taper and
length to turn over a dry fly properly after one adds a couple of feet of
tippet (allowing for some sensible calculation of tippet size vs. fly size).
Myron, you're upsetting my world view vis-a-vis flyfishing tackle. Please
'splain how one finds said sweet spot.

Damnit...cain't trust nothin no more.....

//ShowMyIgnorance = ......aw hell, let's just leave it on.......

Danl

"Danl" wrote in message
...

"riverman" wrote in message
...

Leaders have a 'sweet spot' where the length is just right to turn over a
fly, present the fly well, and keep the fly far enough from the flyline
to
not spook the fish. New tapered leaders are usually quite a bit longer
than
that sweet spot, so you have two choices with a brand new leader: either
fish it as is until you have cut it back a few times and it is at the
sweet
spot, or else just cut it back to the sweet spot immediately. People do
both.


[snip]

//ShowMyIgnorance = 1

I did not know that. Here I've sat... skinny, dumb, and happy....resting
easy in the knowledge that somehow the tapered leaders that I buy are
designed and manufactured to be more or less perzactly the correct taper
and
length to turn over a dry fly properly after one adds a couple of feet of
tippet (allowing for some sensible calculation of tippet size vs. fly
size).
Myron, you're upsetting my world view vis-a-vis flyfishing tackle. Please
'splain how one finds said sweet spot.

Damnit...cain't trust nothin no more.....

//ShowMyIgnorance = ......aw hell, let's just leave it on.......

Danl

Your experience could very well be correct, Danl. The 'optimal' leader
length will vary a LOT depending on rod length, stiffness, how hard you
cast, how much line you are casting, what fly you have on, the conditions of
the water, the wind, the type of water you are fishing, etc. But in the
simplest sense, a longer, stiffer rod with more line out and with a more
forceful cast will keep more leader appropriately airborne, and will have
enough left over energy to appropriately turn it over.

I fish mostly a 8.5 foot 4wt, medium rod, and I do not have a particularly
powerful foreward cast. As a result, a typical 12 foot 5x leader is a bit
long for me, and doesn't really turn over well until I've lost about 18
inches off the end. At that point, its like a guitar that has been tuned: my
casts become very precise and easy, the leader turns over sweetly, and I can
drop dry flies within a few inches of where I am aiming, even at long
distances.

Then, as I conitinue to change flies and the leader shortens another foot or
so, the whole thing slips back out of 'tune'....I start getting windknots,
or unintentional dumpcasts (where the leader lands in a spiral around the
fly), or the dry fly hits too hard. Then, I add another 2 feet of tippet,
and the whole thing starts to feel great again.

Of course, YMMV, but that's my experience.

--riverman

"Danl" wrote in message
...

"riverman" wrote in message
...

Leaders have a 'sweet spot' where the length is just right to turn over a
fly, present the fly well, and keep the fly far enough from the flyline
to
not spook the fish. New tapered leaders are usually quite a bit longer
than
that sweet spot, so you have two choices with a brand new leader: either
fish it as is until you have cut it back a few times and it is at the
sweet
spot, or else just cut it back to the sweet spot immediately. People do
both.


[snip]

//ShowMyIgnorance = 1

I did not know that. Here I've sat... skinny, dumb, and happy....resting
easy in the knowledge that somehow the tapered leaders that I buy are
designed and manufactured to be more or less perzactly the correct taper
and
length to turn over a dry fly properly after one adds a couple of feet of
tippet (allowing for some sensible calculation of tippet size vs. fly
size).
Myron, you're upsetting my world view vis-a-vis flyfishing tackle. Please
'splain how one finds said sweet spot.

Damnit...cain't trust nothin no more.....

//ShowMyIgnorance = ......aw hell, let's just leave it on.......

Danl

Your experience could very well be correct, Danl. The 'optimal' leader
length will vary a LOT depending on rod length, stiffness, how hard you
cast, how much line you are casting, what fly you have on, the conditions of
the water, the wind, the type of water you are fishing, etc. But in the
simplest sense, a longer, stiffer rod with more line out and with a more
forceful cast will keep more leader appropriately airborne, and will have
enough left over energy to appropriately turn it over.

I fish mostly a 8.5 foot 4wt, medium rod, and I do not have a particularly
powerful foreward cast. As a result, a typical 12 foot 5x leader is a bit
long for me, and doesn't really turn over well until I've lost about 18
inches off the end. At that point, its like a guitar that has been tuned: my
casts become very precise and easy, the leader turns over sweetly, and I can
drop dry flies within a few inches of where I am aiming, even at long
distances.

Then, as I conitinue to change flies and the leader shortens another foot or
so, the whole thing slips back out of 'tune'....I start getting windknots,
or unintentional dumpcasts (where the leader lands in a spiral around the
fly), or the dry fly hits too hard. Then, I add another 2 feet of tippet,
and the whole thing starts to feel great again.

Of course, YMMV, but that's my experience.

--riverman

Danl wrote:

//ShowMyIgnorance = 1

I did not know that. Here I've sat... skinny, dumb, and happy....resting
easy in the knowledge that somehow the tapered leaders that I buy are
designed and manufactured to be more or less perzactly the correct taper and
length to turn over a dry fly properly after one adds a couple of feet of
tippet (allowing for some sensible calculation of tippet size vs. fly size).
Myron, you're upsetting my world view vis-a-vis flyfishing tackle. Please
'splain how one finds said sweet spot.

Damnit...cain't trust nothin no more.....

//ShowMyIgnorance = ......aw hell, let's just leave it on.......

Tapered leaders are not made ready to tie on tippet. They have a section
of level (i.e., nontapered) mono that is meant to be the "tippet." If
you have, say, a new 3x tapered leader, you could tie on a tippet of 5x
and it would perform pretty well. If you have a new 5x leader and you
tie on more 5x, that wouldn't work as well because you'd have a "double"
length of tippet.

For most troutfishing, I usually either buy 7.5-foot 3x leaders and add
5x tippet, or 9-foot 5x leaders and use up the existing 5x end before
tying on more tippet. For deep nymphing I cut the leader way back and
use a very long tippet, to reduce drag.

I carry a spool of 3x (and sometimes 1x) so I can rebuild the leader
above the tippet.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

"riverman" wrote in message
...

I fish mostly a 8.5 foot 4wt, medium rod, and I do not have a particularly
powerful foreward cast. As a result, a typical 12 foot 5x leader is a bit
long for me, and doesn't really turn over well until I've lost about 18
inches off the end. At that point, its like a guitar that has been tuned:
my casts become very precise and easy, the leader turns over sweetly, and
I can drop dry flies within a few inches of where I am aiming, even at
long distances.

Then, as I conitinue to change flies and the leader shortens another foot
or so, the whole thing slips back out of 'tune'....I start getting
windknots, or unintentional dumpcasts (where the leader lands in a spiral
around the fly), or the dry fly hits too hard. Then, I add another 2 feet
of tippet, and the whole thing starts to feel great again.

I don't know that there's anything "typical" about a 12 foot store bought
leader. I'm not sure I've ever seen one.

You might want to consider buying 9 foot leaders, or even 7 1/2, and then
tying on as much material as you need for the conditions at hand.

Oh, and I strongly suggest that you change tippet long before it gets down
to 10 inches.......it's real tough to get a good drift with anything that
short. Opinions on what is best will vary, but I never use less than 24
inches when I'm serious about trying to catch fish on dry flies.

Wolfgang

Just to add a bit of confusion to all this I quite like it if my leader
is a little bit longer than is ideal for 'perfect' casting. Most of my
fishing is dry fly upstream in very clear water. The one thing that
will put fish off is the stream draggiing the leader, and pulling the
fly unnaturally across the surface of the water. Although I can't see
it, the fish definitely can.

So it suits me if the last few feet of the tippet land in a bit of a
zig-zag, which is what happens if the tippet is a wee bit long, and the
fly floats undragged for thirty seconds or so while the tangle
straightens out.

So I do as riverman suggests, and tie on a couple of feet of leader.
(Incidentally, if I'm fishing 3lb breaking strain tippet, which I often
do, I buy a leader tapered to 4 lb.)

Lazarus

--
Remover the rock from the email address

On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 22:33:10 +0000, Lazarus Cooke
wrote:


Just to add a bit of confusion to all this I quite like it if my leader
is a little bit longer than is ideal for 'perfect' casting. Most of my
fishing is dry fly upstream in very clear water. The one thing that
will put fish off is the stream draggiing the leader, and pulling the
fly unnaturally across the surface of the water. Although I can't see
it, the fish definitely can.

So it suits me if the last few feet of the tippet land in a bit of a
zig-zag, which is what happens if the tippet is a wee bit long, and the
fly floats undragged for thirty seconds or so while the tangle
straightens out.

So I do as riverman suggests, and tie on a couple of feet of leader.
(Incidentally, if I'm fishing 3lb breaking strain tippet, which I often
do, I buy a leader tapered to 4 lb.)

Lazarus


and the winna is . . . .

This is the key, not perfect turnover but perfect drift. I add tippet
to every 9' factory leaer I now buy, precisely because I want a crappy
turnover of the last few feet. I want it to land with a bunch of
squiggles. I now buy 9' 5X leaders and tie 3' of 7X tippet just so as
to screw up the tunrover of the last few feet.

This doesn't work everywhere as I can recall a situation where my son
scored a brookie that I had been working hard, when he cast to it
using his short, thick leader (he's lazy when it comes to refreshing
tippet) while I had soldiered on and failed with my long
leader/tippet. But that's the exception, not the rule.

Peter

turn mailhot into hotmail to reply

Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharl...ers/index.html

"Wolfgang" wrote in message
...

"riverman" wrote in message
...

I fish mostly a 8.5 foot 4wt, medium rod, and I do not have a
particularly powerful foreward cast. As a result, a typical 12 foot 5x
leader is a bit long for me, and doesn't really turn over well until I've
lost about 18 inches off the end. At that point, its like a guitar that
has been tuned: my casts become very precise and easy, the leader turns
over sweetly, and I can drop dry flies within a few inches of where I am
aiming, even at long distances.

Then, as I conitinue to change flies and the leader shortens another foot
or so, the whole thing slips back out of 'tune'....I start getting
windknots, or unintentional dumpcasts (where the leader lands in a spiral
around the fly), or the dry fly hits too hard. Then, I add another 2 feet
of tippet, and the whole thing starts to feel great again.

I don't know that there's anything "typical" about a 12 foot store bought
leader. I'm not sure I've ever seen one.


I'm not sure I have either g. The moment I hit send, I thought "did I say
12 foot?" I use 9 foot leaders, usually 4x or 5x trout tapers.

You might want to consider buying 9 foot leaders, or even 7 1/2, and then
tying on as much material as you need for the conditions at hand.

Oh, and I strongly suggest that you change tippet long before it gets down
to 10 inches.......it's real tough to get a good drift with anything that
short. Opinions on what is best will vary, but I never use less than 24
inches when I'm serious about trying to catch fish on dry flies.

I'll try your advice out, Wolfgang. I always hate to cut off all that clean
leader, but I should consider that the knot could quite easily be putting
off fish, and a shorter length does affect the drift. A lot depends on what
thickness the end of the leader is: if its a 5x leader with a foot or so of
original end still on it, and I'm using a 5x tippet, I'll fish it until the
tippet is down quite a bit. If its a 3x or 4x leader with a 5x tippet, I'll
change tippet (or tie on another section of 5x or 6x) when it gets down to
about 18 or 20 inches. But I'll start experimenting with longer tippets.

I do find that, over time, the leader-tippet setup develops its own
character. I have some setups that just seem to work better than others,
from a combination of kinks, old windknots and varying lengths of tippet.
They become a lot like hand-tied leaders, and I get 'attached' to some and
actually feel a pang of remorse when I have to cut them off. But then
there's that little thrill of satisfaction when I get to rip open a
brand-new package. :-)

A question of my own: I always go down 2 numbers when tying on tippet: I'll
start with a 3x leader, then tie on a 5x, and then maybe a 7x. Or I'll start
with a 4x, and tie on a 6x. Or I'll go 5x-7x. Is this standard?

--riverman

"Wolfgang" wrote in message
...

"riverman" wrote in message
...

I fish mostly a 8.5 foot 4wt, medium rod, and I do not have a
particularly powerful foreward cast. As a result, a typical 12 foot 5x
leader is a bit long for me, and doesn't really turn over well until I've
lost about 18 inches off the end. At that point, its like a guitar that
has been tuned: my casts become very precise and easy, the leader turns
over sweetly, and I can drop dry flies within a few inches of where I am
aiming, even at long distances.

Then, as I conitinue to change flies and the leader shortens another foot
or so, the whole thing slips back out of 'tune'....I start getting
windknots, or unintentional dumpcasts (where the leader lands in a spiral
around the fly), or the dry fly hits too hard. Then, I add another 2 feet
of tippet, and the whole thing starts to feel great again.

I don't know that there's anything "typical" about a 12 foot store bought
leader. I'm not sure I've ever seen one.


I'm not sure I have either g. The moment I hit send, I thought "did I say
12 foot?" I use 9 foot leaders, usually 4x or 5x trout tapers.

You might want to consider buying 9 foot leaders, or even 7 1/2, and then
tying on as much material as you need for the conditions at hand.

Oh, and I strongly suggest that you change tippet long before it gets down
to 10 inches.......it's real tough to get a good drift with anything that
short. Opinions on what is best will vary, but I never use less than 24
inches when I'm serious about trying to catch fish on dry flies.

I'll try your advice out, Wolfgang. I always hate to cut off all that clean
leader, but I should consider that the knot could quite easily be putting
off fish, and a shorter length does affect the drift. A lot depends on what
thickness the end of the leader is: if its a 5x leader with a foot or so of
original end still on it, and I'm using a 5x tippet, I'll fish it until the
tippet is down quite a bit. If its a 3x or 4x leader with a 5x tippet, I'll
change tippet (or tie on another section of 5x or 6x) when it gets down to
about 18 or 20 inches. But I'll start experimenting with longer tippets.

I do find that, over time, the leader-tippet setup develops its own
character. I have some setups that just seem to work better than others,
from a combination of kinks, old windknots and varying lengths of tippet.
They become a lot like hand-tied leaders, and I get 'attached' to some and
actually feel a pang of remorse when I have to cut them off. But then
there's that little thrill of satisfaction when I get to rip open a
brand-new package. :-)

A question of my own: I always go down 2 numbers when tying on tippet: I'll
start with a 3x leader, then tie on a 5x, and then maybe a 7x. Or I'll start
with a 4x, and tie on a 6x. Or I'll go 5x-7x. Is this standard?

--riverman

"riverman" wrote in message
...

A question of my own: I always go down 2 numbers when tying on tippet:
I'll start with a 3x leader, then tie on a 5x, and then maybe a 7x. Or
I'll start with a 4x, and tie on a 6x. Or I'll go 5x-7x. Is this standard?

--riverman

http://www.activeangler.com/articles...r/tippets2.asp

Typical
Tippet Diameters

Tippet
Diameter

0x .011"
1x .010"
2x .009"
3x .008"
4x .007"
5x .006"
6x .005"
7x .004"
8x .003"



Tapered Leader
Recipe
(12', 5x for trout)

Length
Diameter

36" .021"
24" .019"
16" .017"
12" .015"
7" .013"
7" .011"
7" .009"
7" .008"
28" .006"



Apparently, Orvis thinks so.

Mark

"riverman" wrote in message
...

I'll try your advice out, Wolfgang. I always hate to cut off all that
clean leader, but I should consider that the knot could quite easily be
putting off fish, and a shorter length does affect the drift. A lot
depends on what thickness the end of the leader is: if its a 5x leader
with a foot or so of original end still on it, and I'm using a 5x tippet,
I'll fish it until the tippet is down quite a bit. If its a 3x or 4x
leader with a 5x tippet, I'll change tippet (or tie on another section of
5x or 6x) when it gets down to about 18 or 20 inches. But I'll start
experimenting with longer tippets.

I do find that, over time, the leader-tippet setup develops its own
character. I have some setups that just seem to work better than others,
from a combination of kinks, old windknots and varying lengths of tippet.
They become a lot like hand-tied leaders, and I get 'attached' to some and
actually feel a pang of remorse when I have to cut them off. But then
there's that little thrill of satisfaction when I get to rip open a
brand-new package. :-)

A question of my own: I always go down 2 numbers when tying on tippet:
I'll start with a 3x leader, then tie on a 5x, and then maybe a 7x. Or
I'll start with a 4x, and tie on a 6x. Or I'll go 5x-7x. Is this standard?

I don't believe there is any meaningful standard. I think your second
paragraph above goes to the heart of the matter. You experiment until you
find an arrangement you find satisfactory. In my own case this has resulted
in ever decreasing reliance on knotless tapered leaders; they just don't do
anything very well. I do still occasionally use them because I'm too lazy
to keep myself supplied with hand tied leaders. When I do resort to them, I
always lop off a couple of feet at the tippet end and rebuild from there.
Knotless leaders are produced by a drawing process. I think the stresses
involved make the tippet end virtually worthless. As often as not, I've
found them to be badly out of round and with serious flaws in the surface.
The material also tends to be considerably softer than the Maxima tippet
material I use routinely. The Maxima tippet usually cuts through the weaker
leader when I try to tie them together at small diameters.

I carry tippet in four sizes; 2, 3, 5, and 8 pound test. I don't know what
the "x" designation for these is......easy enough to find out if one is
interested, I suppose. When setting up with the butt end of a new knotless
leader I cut it about where the 5 pound Maxima more or less matches the
diameter and tie in a foot or so. I follow that with 18-24 inches of the
three pound and then 30-40 inches of the two pound. Voila. I end up with
something on the order of ten to thirteen feet of leader......suitable for
most of what I do.

There can be no doubt that carefully determined leader setups will work
better in some situations than others, but I've found that slight (and
easily managed....with practice) adjustments to casting strokes will, in
most situations, compensate quite nicely.

In short, and is applicable to most of the controversial issues in fly
fishing, it ain't the fiddlestick that makes the music......it's the
fiddler.

Wolfgang

Wolfgang wrote:

In my own case this has resulted
in ever decreasing reliance on knotless tapered leaders; they just don't do
anything very well. I do still occasionally use them because I'm too lazy
to keep myself supplied with hand tied leaders. When I do resort to them, I
always lop off a couple of feet at the tippet end and rebuild from there.
Knotless leaders are produced by a drawing process. I think the stresses
involved make the tippet end virtually worthless.

That's absurd. ALL monofilament is produced by extrusion, including the
two feet of tippet you're wasting and the other two feet you're
replacing it with. The "stresses" are the same.

BTW, please don't throw that two feet of wasted tippet onto the ground.

As often as not, I've
found them to be badly out of round and with serious flaws in the surface.

Where the hell are you buying leaders? Bob's Bait's closeout sale?

The material also tends to be considerably softer than the Maxima tippet
material I use routinely. The Maxima tippet usually cuts through the weaker
leader when I try to tie them together at small diameters.

You can buy Maxima knotless tapered leaders at Cabela's and at thousands
of other fine retail outlets around the country. Duh.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

Wolfgang wrote:

In my own case this has resulted
in ever decreasing reliance on knotless tapered leaders; they just don't do
anything very well. I do still occasionally use them because I'm too lazy
to keep myself supplied with hand tied leaders. When I do resort to them, I
always lop off a couple of feet at the tippet end and rebuild from there.
Knotless leaders are produced by a drawing process. I think the stresses
involved make the tippet end virtually worthless.

That's absurd. ALL monofilament is produced by extrusion, including the
two feet of tippet you're wasting and the other two feet you're
replacing it with. The "stresses" are the same.

BTW, please don't throw that two feet of wasted tippet onto the ground.

As often as not, I've
found them to be badly out of round and with serious flaws in the surface.

Where the hell are you buying leaders? Bob's Bait's closeout sale?

The material also tends to be considerably softer than the Maxima tippet
material I use routinely. The Maxima tippet usually cuts through the weaker
leader when I try to tie them together at small diameters.

You can buy Maxima knotless tapered leaders at Cabela's and at thousands
of other fine retail outlets around the country. Duh.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

"rw" wrote in message
m...
Wolfgang wrote:

In my own case this has resulted in ever decreasing reliance on knotless
tapered leaders; they just don't do anything very well. I do still
occasionally use them because I'm too lazy to keep myself supplied with
hand tied leaders. When I do resort to them, I always lop off a couple
of feet at the tippet end and rebuild from there. Knotless leaders are
produced by a drawing process. I think the stresses involved make the
tippet end virtually worthless.

That's absurd.

Is it? Let's see.

ALL monofilament is produced by extrusion, including the two feet of
tippet you're wasting and the other two feet you're replacing it with. The
"stresses" are the same.

Extrusion? Did I say something about extrusion? Did I, for that matter,
say anything about how monofilament is made?

BTW, please don't throw that two feet of wasted tippet onto the ground.

I'll save it for you. You can stick it where your head lives.

As often as not, I've found them to be badly out of round and with
serious flaws in the surface.

Where the hell are you buying leaders? Bob's Bait's closeout sale?

I'm not familiar with that establishment. Do they have an outlet in
southeast Wisconsin?

The material also tends to be considerably softer than the Maxima tippet
material I use routinely. The Maxima tippet usually cuts through the
weaker leader when I try to tie them together at small diameters.

You can buy Maxima knotless tapered leaders at Cabela's and at thousands
of other fine retail outlets around the country. Duh.

And? I thought I had made it clear that I wasn't in the market for knotless
tapered leaders.

Wolfgang
good god, the boy is stupid!

"clamus" wrote

I have just started to experiment, thanks to Mike Connor, with tippet rings

I only have two brief fishing days using them, at this point, but they
suggest that I'm on a positive track. I intend to post more, pro or con, as
I fish them this season but so far I find several pros and no cons ( well,
finding them and paying for them is a slight con )

What I have done, so far, is buy a basic leader for the style fishing I
intend. I put the ring on it roughly where I'd tie a tippet to a brand new
leader. For me, ( everyone else's mileage WILL vary ;) that is back some
from the tip of a new leader, so some is cut off, then the ring tied on with
a Pitzen(sp?) knot. Now tippet is tied to the ring with the same knot,
and again a '100%' knot is used at the fly.

When the tippet gets too short, or tactic changes make me want to replace
it, I do replace it totally without cutting back any of the actual leader
for a new knot. Tippet the size of the leader at the ring, or up ( down?)
to several sizes smaller seems to work fine ( again my trials are limited,
to date ).

Once I tied a short dropper to the ring, as well as the tippet, and used it
to attach split shot .... seemed to work as well as shot directly on the
leader and has the potential advantage of possibly allowing shot stuck in a
rock to be pulled loose without taking the fly and tippet with it. I assume
that used this way the ring will get roughed up by the bottom and have a
shorter lifespan, but the one I used that way shows no wear after that one
session.

Again ... my tests are limited ... but give tippet rings a thought ... the
old dogs that can't learn new tricks, are, indeed, getting old G

Wolfgang wrote:

"rw" wrote in message
m...


Where the hell are you buying leaders? Bob's Bait's closeout sale?


I'm not familiar with that establishment. Do they have an outlet in
southeast Wisconsin?

Just down the road, but it may have changed ownershop, as it does every
year or so. They also sell minnows and nightcrawlers.

You can buy Maxima knotless tapered leaders at Cabela's and at thousands
of other fine retail outlets around the country. Duh.


And? I thought I had made it clear that I wasn't in the market for knotless
tapered leaders.

Right, because (among other things) they didn't accept your precious
Maxima tippet. Geez. What a self important loser.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

"rw" wrote in message
m...
Wolfgang wrote:

"rw" wrote in message
m...


Where the hell are you buying leaders? Bob's Bait's closeout sale?


I'm not familiar with that establishment. Do they have an outlet in
southeast Wisconsin?

Just down the road, but it may have changed ownershop, as it does every
year or so. They also sell minnows and nightcrawlers.

Which road?

You can buy Maxima knotless tapered leaders at Cabela's and at thousands
of other fine retail outlets around the country. Duh.


And? I thought I had made it clear that I wasn't in the market for
knotless tapered leaders.

Right, because (among other things) they didn't accept your precious
Maxima tippet.

Huh? Refresh my memory. What was I trying to get for Maxima tippet, and
from whom?

Geez. What a self important loser.

Would you care to give us a hint concerning what the hell you are gibbering
about? And while you're at it, why don't you explain to us the difference
between drawing and extruding?

Wolfgang
who supposes this is what comes of cavorting with thirteen year old girls.

"Wolfgang" Wolfgang
who supposes this is what comes of cavorting with thirteen year old girls.



I was in a tsunami once...washed up in a child brothel. Nothing happened...

john