Tappered leaders and tippet material

Here is my question, do you tie the fly directly to the leader or you
add a lenght of tippet materiel to it? If you tie the fly directly to
the leader, when do you discard the leader?

Learning

Thanks

"clamus" wrote in message
...
Here is my question, do you tie the fly directly to the leader or you add
a lenght of tippet materiel to it? If you tie the fly directly to the
leader, when do you discard the leader?

Learning


Fair question.

Leaders have a 'sweet spot' where the length is just right to turn over a
fly, present the fly well, and keep the fly far enough from the flyline to
not spook the fish. New tapered leaders are usually quite a bit longer than
that sweet spot, so you have two choices with a brand new leader: either
fish it as is until you have cut it back a few times and it is at the sweet
spot, or else just cut it back to the sweet spot immediately. People do
both.

Once its at (or just shorter than) that length, you have only one option:
tie on some tippet. If you don't do this, you'll only get another dozen
flies out of the tippet and none of them will be at that good length. When
you DO tie on some tippet, you can get about 10 or 12 flies out of it before
you have to retie another section of tippet on. Then you can repeatedly
replace the tippet and keep the leader at that good length for quite a
while, dozens and dozens and dozens of flies. Personally, I cut off the
tippet and retie a new length whenever the leader-tippet knot gets within
8-10 inches of the fly, or so. The knot is a slightly stiffer part of the
leader, and if it gets too close to the fly it will affect the turnover, and
also catch a lot of crud from the water and spook the fish. On the other
hand, I hate wasting all that tippet by discarding more than 10 inches.

Eventually, you will have cut the leader back until its into the thicker
section. At that point, tie on some thicker tippet, and then tie on the
tiny tippet to that and start the cycle all over. This way, you ought to get
several months or more out of the butt end of leader, and be able to cast
over 100 flies on it. Without using tippet, you will get about 15 flies on a
leader and have to discard them several times a day.

--riverman

Got that clamus?


"riverman" wrote in message
...

"clamus" wrote in message
...
Here is my question, do you tie the fly directly to the leader or you
add
a lenght of tippet materiel to it? If you tie the fly directly to the
leader, when do you discard the leader?

Learning


Fair question.

Leaders have a 'sweet spot' where the length is just right to turn over a
fly, present the fly well, and keep the fly far enough from the flyline to
not spook the fish. New tapered leaders are usually quite a bit longer
than
that sweet spot, so you have two choices with a brand new leader: either
fish it as is until you have cut it back a few times and it is at the
sweet
spot, or else just cut it back to the sweet spot immediately. People do
both.

Once its at (or just shorter than) that length, you have only one option:
tie on some tippet. If you don't do this, you'll only get another dozen
flies out of the tippet and none of them will be at that good length. When
you DO tie on some tippet, you can get about 10 or 12 flies out of it
before
you have to retie another section of tippet on. Then you can repeatedly
replace the tippet and keep the leader at that good length for quite a
while, dozens and dozens and dozens of flies. Personally, I cut off the
tippet and retie a new length whenever the leader-tippet knot gets within
8-10 inches of the fly, or so. The knot is a slightly stiffer part of the
leader, and if it gets too close to the fly it will affect the turnover,
and
also catch a lot of crud from the water and spook the fish. On the other
hand, I hate wasting all that tippet by discarding more than 10 inches.

Eventually, you will have cut the leader back until its into the thicker
section. At that point, tie on some thicker tippet, and then tie on the
tiny tippet to that and start the cycle all over. This way, you ought to
get
several months or more out of the butt end of leader, and be able to cast
over 100 flies on it. Without using tippet, you will get about 15 flies on
a
leader and have to discard them several times a day.

--riverman

"asadi" wrote in message
m...

"riverman" wrote in message
...

"clamus" wrote in message
...
Here is my question, do you tie the fly directly to the leader or you
add
a lenght of tippet materiel to it? If you tie the fly directly to the
leader, when do you discard the leader?

Learning


Fair question.

Leaders have a 'sweet spot' where the length is just right to turn over a
fly, present the fly well, and keep the fly far enough from the flyline
to
not spook the fish. New tapered leaders are usually quite a bit longer
than
that sweet spot, so you have two choices with a brand new leader: either
fish it as is until you have cut it back a few times and it is at the
sweet
spot, or else just cut it back to the sweet spot immediately. People do
both.

Once its at (or just shorter than) that length, you have only one option:
tie on some tippet. If you don't do this, you'll only get another dozen
flies out of the tippet and none of them will be at that good length.
When
you DO tie on some tippet, you can get about 10 or 12 flies out of it
before
you have to retie another section of tippet on. Then you can repeatedly
replace the tippet and keep the leader at that good length for quite a
while, dozens and dozens and dozens of flies. Personally, I cut off the
tippet and retie a new length whenever the leader-tippet knot gets within
8-10 inches of the fly, or so. The knot is a slightly stiffer part of the
leader, and if it gets too close to the fly it will affect the turnover,
and
also catch a lot of crud from the water and spook the fish. On the other
hand, I hate wasting all that tippet by discarding more than 10 inches.

Eventually, you will have cut the leader back until its into the thicker
section. At that point, tie on some thicker tippet, and then tie on the
tiny tippet to that and start the cycle all over. This way, you ought to
get
several months or more out of the butt end of leader, and be able to cast
over 100 flies on it. Without using tippet, you will get about 15 flies
on
a
leader and have to discard them several times a day.

--riverman

Got that clamus?


LOL. I read my post, and although it says precisely what I meant to say,
even I couldn't follow it.

OK, Clamus: your answer is: TIE ON SOME TIPPET. If you tie to the leader,
you will use it all up in a matter of days.

--riverman

"riverman" OK, Clamus: your answer is: TIE ON SOME TIPPET. If you tie to
the leader,
you will use it all up in a matter of days.

--riverman


Actually, I understood it...many posts here I do not...

john

"riverman" OK, Clamus: your answer is: TIE ON SOME TIPPET. If you tie to
the leader,
you will use it all up in a matter of days.

--riverman


Actually, I understood it...many posts here I do not...

john

"riverman" wrote in message
...

Leaders have a 'sweet spot' where the length is just right to turn over a
fly, present the fly well, and keep the fly far enough from the flyline to
not spook the fish. New tapered leaders are usually quite a bit longer
than
that sweet spot, so you have two choices with a brand new leader: either
fish it as is until you have cut it back a few times and it is at the
sweet
spot, or else just cut it back to the sweet spot immediately. People do
both.


[snip]

//ShowMyIgnorance = 1

I did not know that. Here I've sat... skinny, dumb, and happy....resting
easy in the knowledge that somehow the tapered leaders that I buy are
designed and manufactured to be more or less perzactly the correct taper and
length to turn over a dry fly properly after one adds a couple of feet of
tippet (allowing for some sensible calculation of tippet size vs. fly size).
Myron, you're upsetting my world view vis-a-vis flyfishing tackle. Please
'splain how one finds said sweet spot.

Damnit...cain't trust nothin no more.....

//ShowMyIgnorance = ......aw hell, let's just leave it on.......

Danl

"Danl" wrote in message
...

"riverman" wrote in message
...

Leaders have a 'sweet spot' where the length is just right to turn over a
fly, present the fly well, and keep the fly far enough from the flyline
to
not spook the fish. New tapered leaders are usually quite a bit longer
than
that sweet spot, so you have two choices with a brand new leader: either
fish it as is until you have cut it back a few times and it is at the
sweet
spot, or else just cut it back to the sweet spot immediately. People do
both.


[snip]

//ShowMyIgnorance = 1

I did not know that. Here I've sat... skinny, dumb, and happy....resting
easy in the knowledge that somehow the tapered leaders that I buy are
designed and manufactured to be more or less perzactly the correct taper
and
length to turn over a dry fly properly after one adds a couple of feet of
tippet (allowing for some sensible calculation of tippet size vs. fly
size).
Myron, you're upsetting my world view vis-a-vis flyfishing tackle. Please
'splain how one finds said sweet spot.

Damnit...cain't trust nothin no more.....

//ShowMyIgnorance = ......aw hell, let's just leave it on.......

Danl

Your experience could very well be correct, Danl. The 'optimal' leader
length will vary a LOT depending on rod length, stiffness, how hard you
cast, how much line you are casting, what fly you have on, the conditions of
the water, the wind, the type of water you are fishing, etc. But in the
simplest sense, a longer, stiffer rod with more line out and with a more
forceful cast will keep more leader appropriately airborne, and will have
enough left over energy to appropriately turn it over.

I fish mostly a 8.5 foot 4wt, medium rod, and I do not have a particularly
powerful foreward cast. As a result, a typical 12 foot 5x leader is a bit
long for me, and doesn't really turn over well until I've lost about 18
inches off the end. At that point, its like a guitar that has been tuned: my
casts become very precise and easy, the leader turns over sweetly, and I can
drop dry flies within a few inches of where I am aiming, even at long
distances.

Then, as I conitinue to change flies and the leader shortens another foot or
so, the whole thing slips back out of 'tune'....I start getting windknots,
or unintentional dumpcasts (where the leader lands in a spiral around the
fly), or the dry fly hits too hard. Then, I add another 2 feet of tippet,
and the whole thing starts to feel great again.

Of course, YMMV, but that's my experience.

--riverman

"riverman" wrote in message
...

I fish mostly a 8.5 foot 4wt, medium rod, and I do not have a particularly
powerful foreward cast. As a result, a typical 12 foot 5x leader is a bit
long for me, and doesn't really turn over well until I've lost about 18
inches off the end. At that point, its like a guitar that has been tuned:
my casts become very precise and easy, the leader turns over sweetly, and
I can drop dry flies within a few inches of where I am aiming, even at
long distances.

Then, as I conitinue to change flies and the leader shortens another foot
or so, the whole thing slips back out of 'tune'....I start getting
windknots, or unintentional dumpcasts (where the leader lands in a spiral
around the fly), or the dry fly hits too hard. Then, I add another 2 feet
of tippet, and the whole thing starts to feel great again.

I don't know that there's anything "typical" about a 12 foot store bought
leader. I'm not sure I've ever seen one.

You might want to consider buying 9 foot leaders, or even 7 1/2, and then
tying on as much material as you need for the conditions at hand.

Oh, and I strongly suggest that you change tippet long before it gets down
to 10 inches.......it's real tough to get a good drift with anything that
short. Opinions on what is best will vary, but I never use less than 24
inches when I'm serious about trying to catch fish on dry flies.

Wolfgang

"Wolfgang" wrote in message
...

"riverman" wrote in message
...

I fish mostly a 8.5 foot 4wt, medium rod, and I do not have a
particularly powerful foreward cast. As a result, a typical 12 foot 5x
leader is a bit long for me, and doesn't really turn over well until I've
lost about 18 inches off the end. At that point, its like a guitar that
has been tuned: my casts become very precise and easy, the leader turns
over sweetly, and I can drop dry flies within a few inches of where I am
aiming, even at long distances.

Then, as I conitinue to change flies and the leader shortens another foot
or so, the whole thing slips back out of 'tune'....I start getting
windknots, or unintentional dumpcasts (where the leader lands in a spiral
around the fly), or the dry fly hits too hard. Then, I add another 2 feet
of tippet, and the whole thing starts to feel great again.

I don't know that there's anything "typical" about a 12 foot store bought
leader. I'm not sure I've ever seen one.


I'm not sure I have either g. The moment I hit send, I thought "did I say
12 foot?" I use 9 foot leaders, usually 4x or 5x trout tapers.

You might want to consider buying 9 foot leaders, or even 7 1/2, and then
tying on as much material as you need for the conditions at hand.

Oh, and I strongly suggest that you change tippet long before it gets down
to 10 inches.......it's real tough to get a good drift with anything that
short. Opinions on what is best will vary, but I never use less than 24
inches when I'm serious about trying to catch fish on dry flies.

I'll try your advice out, Wolfgang. I always hate to cut off all that clean
leader, but I should consider that the knot could quite easily be putting
off fish, and a shorter length does affect the drift. A lot depends on what
thickness the end of the leader is: if its a 5x leader with a foot or so of
original end still on it, and I'm using a 5x tippet, I'll fish it until the
tippet is down quite a bit. If its a 3x or 4x leader with a 5x tippet, I'll
change tippet (or tie on another section of 5x or 6x) when it gets down to
about 18 or 20 inches. But I'll start experimenting with longer tippets.

I do find that, over time, the leader-tippet setup develops its own
character. I have some setups that just seem to work better than others,
from a combination of kinks, old windknots and varying lengths of tippet.
They become a lot like hand-tied leaders, and I get 'attached' to some and
actually feel a pang of remorse when I have to cut them off. But then
there's that little thrill of satisfaction when I get to rip open a
brand-new package. :-)

A question of my own: I always go down 2 numbers when tying on tippet: I'll
start with a 3x leader, then tie on a 5x, and then maybe a 7x. Or I'll start
with a 4x, and tie on a 6x. Or I'll go 5x-7x. Is this standard?

--riverman