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Rangeley style: heavy or light hooks?
Hello all, I am planning to tie a set of Rangeley-style streamers. I need to have streamers which have large silhouette, but which I can cast with a 5wt or a 6wt line. At least one magazine articles stated that Rangeley-style streamers would be good for this purpose. (If you have strong doubts about this, please let me know.) What I need to do now is to select which hooks I will use. The page http://globalflyfisher.com/streamers...ooks/hooks.htm gives a pretty good overview of the different types of hooks available. Naturally, my desire to use relatively light line weights biases me towards those hooks made of thinner wire. But, my question is, does a thin-wire hook make the streamer more prone to swim on its side? The much recommended Mike Martinek -hooks are not available (at least locally), but we do have Partridge CS-15 (heavy wire), TMC 300 (medium heavy) and maybe also Mustad 94720 (light). And of course anything can be ordered from the web nowadays. -- Jarmo Hurri Commercial email countermeasures included in header email address. Remove all garbage from header email address when replying, or just use . |
Jarmo I need to have streamers which have large silhouette, but which Jarmo I can cast with a 5wt or a 6wt line. ... (If you have strong Jarmo doubts about this, please let me know.) Eh, I have to clarify this before anyone even tries to answer. Of course it is possible to use, say, a 5wt line if the hook size is small enough. But I have the desire to go as high as hook size 4. (The article I read claims that this is realistic.) -- Jarmo Hurri Commercial email countermeasures included in header email address. Remove all garbage from header email address when replying, or just use . |
Jarmo I need to have streamers which have large silhouette, but which Jarmo I can cast with a 5wt or a 6wt line. ... (If you have strong Jarmo doubts about this, please let me know.) Eh, I have to clarify this before anyone even tries to answer. Of course it is possible to use, say, a 5wt line if the hook size is small enough. But I have the desire to go as high as hook size 4. (The article I read claims that this is realistic.) -- Jarmo Hurri Commercial email countermeasures included in header email address. Remove all garbage from header email address when replying, or just use . |
"Jarmo Hurri" wrote in message ... Jarmo I need to have streamers which have large silhouette, but which Jarmo I can cast with a 5wt or a 6wt line. ... (If you have strong Jarmo doubts about this, please let me know.) Eh, I have to clarify this before anyone even tries to answer. Of course it is possible to use, say, a 5wt line if the hook size is small enough. But I have the desire to go as high as hook size 4. (The article I read claims that this is realistic.) -- Jarmo Hurri The Rangely style streamers have constructed wings of feather fibre, and this makes them rather difficult to cast with light gear. I only ever tried a couple in this style, and then gave up on them. If you want large streamers which can be cast with light gear, I would suggest you go for synthetics, or at least hair wings. Tube flies are also a good alternative. TL MC |
Mike The Rangely style streamers have constructed wings of feather Mike fibre, and this makes them rather difficult to cast with light Mike gear. Hi Mike, These streamers have very slim profiles in the directions orthogonal to the large silhouette - could this help in casting? (Still looking for a reason why experienced fly fishermen would call these good streamers for lightweight gear.) -- Jarmo Hurri Commercial email countermeasures included in header email address. Remove all garbage from header email address when replying, or just use . |
Mike The Rangely style streamers have constructed wings of feather Mike fibre, and this makes them rather difficult to cast with light Mike gear. Hi Mike, These streamers have very slim profiles in the directions orthogonal to the large silhouette - could this help in casting? (Still looking for a reason why experienced fly fishermen would call these good streamers for lightweight gear.) -- Jarmo Hurri Commercial email countermeasures included in header email address. Remove all garbage from header email address when replying, or just use . |
Jarmo Hurri wrote in
: Mike The Rangely style streamers have constructed wings of feather Mike fibre, and this makes them rather difficult to cast with light Mike gear. Hi Mike, These streamers have very slim profiles in the directions orthogonal to the large silhouette - could this help in casting? (Still looking for a reason why experienced fly fishermen would call these good streamers for lightweight gear.) Isn't the Gray Ghost a Rangley style? I've never had any problem casting a size 8 on a 5-wt. I don't know if you can push it to 4. If you don't ridiculously load up on the floss body, you really aren't casting much more than the hook. Pretty slim profile. The wings are feathers and herl, but not particulary thick and heavy-- Arranged to give large profile without much bulk Scott |
Jarmo Hurri wrote in
: Mike The Rangely style streamers have constructed wings of feather Mike fibre, and this makes them rather difficult to cast with light Mike gear. Hi Mike, These streamers have very slim profiles in the directions orthogonal to the large silhouette - could this help in casting? (Still looking for a reason why experienced fly fishermen would call these good streamers for lightweight gear.) Isn't the Gray Ghost a Rangley style? I've never had any problem casting a size 8 on a 5-wt. I don't know if you can push it to 4. If you don't ridiculously load up on the floss body, you really aren't casting much more than the hook. Pretty slim profile. The wings are feathers and herl, but not particulary thick and heavy-- Arranged to give large profile without much bulk Scott |
Jamo,
I tie Rangely style streamers and bucktails on Mustad 6x long hooks up to size 6 (78950?) and have no trouble handling them with either my Orvis 5wt (8-1/2' Henry's Fork) or my St Croix 9' 6 wt. The thing is, I'm fishing small to mediums sizes streams where 50' is a long cast, and much of the fishing is accomplished with roll casts. Fishing requiring longer casts could change the equation. Most of the Rangeley designs were originally intended for trolling, and were tied on the longer (8x+) hooks, or with a stinger hook. These patterns have been adapted quite well to the somewhat shorter hooks for stream fishing, and they are still favorites for fishing in northern New England. I fish them deep, so I favor a heavier hook. One tip. If you're tying with traditional feather wings or marabou, keep the wings a bit short, or add a small bunch of bucktail between the body and the wing to keep the wing from wrapping around the hook during casting. I'll bet Peter Charles will have some valuable info on this subject. |
Scott Isn't the Gray Ghost a Rangley style? I've never had any Scott problem casting a size 8 on a 5-wt. I don't know if you can Scott push it to 4. I think it is. But size 8 is pretty standard for a 5wt anyhow, so I wouldn't expect any problems there. Scott If you don't ridiculously load up on the floss body, you really Scott aren't casting much more than the hook. Pretty slim profile. Scott The wings are feathers and herl, but not particulary thick and Scott heavy-- Arranged to give large profile without much bulk That's what I thought too. Decided to also harass people on the fly tying forum http://flytyingforum.com/ because I noticed that they have a feather streamer swap going on. -- Jarmo Hurri Commercial email countermeasures included in header email address. Remove all garbage from header email address when replying, or just use . |
Scott writes:
Isn't the Gray Ghost a Rangley style? Yes, otherwise called Carrie Stevens designed streamers. I've never had any problem casting a size 8 on a 5-wt. I don't know if you can push it to 4. On the Rapid, when using a streamer, think BIG. So, I have had no problem casting a size 2 Gray/Black/Green Ghosts and other Stevens ties with a 6 weight, sometime even a 5 weight. Great flies, btw. |
George I tie Rangely style streamers and bucktails on Mustad 6x long George hooks up to size 6 (78950?) and have no trouble handling them George with either my Orvis 5wt (8-1/2' Henry's Fork) or my St Croix George 9' 6 wt. The thing is, I'm fishing small to mediums sizes George streams where 50' is a long cast, and much of the fishing is George accomplished with roll casts. Fishing requiring longer casts George could change the equation. Still, good to hear. George Most of the Rangeley designs were originally intended for George trolling, and were tied on the longer (8x+) hooks, or with a George stinger hook. These patterns have been adapted quite well to George the somewhat shorter hooks for stream fishing, and they are George still favorites for fishing in northern New England. I fish George them deep, so I favor a heavier hook. Good point about hook length. The Partridge hook is something like 10x. George One tip. If you're tying with traditional feather wings or George marabou, keep the wings a bit short, or add a small bunch of George bucktail between the body and the wing to keep the wing from George wrapping around the hook during casting. I'll keep this in mind. The only problem is that during the winter, it's difficult to experiment with different variations. -- Jarmo Hurri Commercial email countermeasures included in header email address. Remove all garbage from header email address when replying, or just use . |
Dave On the Rapid, when using a streamer, think BIG. So, I have had Dave no problem casting a size 2 Gray/Black/Green Ghosts and other Dave Stevens ties with a 6 weight, sometime even a 5 weight. Ahh, this is what I wanted to hear. :-) Any observations on whether these streamers tend to swim on their side (and whether it's related to hook weight)? -- Jarmo Hurri Commercial email countermeasures included in header email address. Remove all garbage from header email address when replying, or just use . |
Jarmo,
The place to get the best info would be the Streamers group on Yahoo.com. This group is dedicated to New England style streamers. Go to the Groups section and Yahoo and do a search on Streamers. I'm sure you'll get the info you need. Hope this helps John "Jarmo Hurri" wrote in message ... Jarmo I need to have streamers which have large silhouette, but which Jarmo I can cast with a 5wt or a 6wt line. ... (If you have strong Jarmo doubts about this, please let me know.) Eh, I have to clarify this before anyone even tries to answer. Of course it is possible to use, say, a 5wt line if the hook size is small enough. But I have the desire to go as high as hook size 4. (The article I read claims that this is realistic.) -- Jarmo Hurri Commercial email countermeasures included in header email address. Remove all garbage from header email address when replying, or just use . |
"Jarmo Hurri" wrote in message ... Mike The Rangely style streamers have constructed wings of feather Mike fibre, and this makes them rather difficult to cast with light Mike gear. Hi Mike, These streamers have very slim profiles in the directions orthogonal to the large silhouette - could this help in casting? (Still looking for a reason why experienced fly fishermen would call these good streamers for lightweight gear.) -- Jarmo Hurri The light variations of these streamers should be OK, even in very large sizes, but the original constructed wing designs get waterlogged very quickly, and are quite heavy as a result. Also, if you use light hooks, you may have a problem with the flies not swimming correctly. The heavy wire hooks act as a "keel" in the water.The feathers themselves are relatively buoyant. Most of the originals were designed for trolling ( "Trailing" is the correct term, but everybody uses the term "trolling"). And so casting was not a problem. I use Grey Ghosts, and a couple of other such patterns now and then, but on 2xL8 heavy wire hooks, and using an #8 weight. I like the looks of these flies, and as I said, I did try a couple for a while on light gear, but my preference for flies of this size, would still be hairwings, and preferably with synthetics, as they donīt become waterlogged. It seems that not many dress the full Carrie Stevens type of streamers any more anyway. According to my info, the wings of these flies were constructed separately, and then mounted on the hook. I have seen quite a few such flies, ( Grey Ghost, etc)where not all the original materials were used, and also only tied with single cock hackles etc. Such flies will of course be a lot easier to cast on light gear. But they will also not give you a very solid silhouette. Only real way to find out if they are suited to your purposes is to try them out. Peter Charles can probably give you more info on this. TL MC |
Jarmo writes:
Ahh, this is what I wanted to hear. :-) Any observations on whether these streamers tend to swim on their side (and whether it's related to hook weight)? Not that I've ever noticed. But be careful and take George's advice about the feathers getting caught in the hook. Properly tied, they can be killers. |
On 3 Feb 2005 05:38:37 -0800, "George Adams" wrote:
Jamo, I tie Rangely style streamers and bucktails on Mustad 6x long hooks up to size 6 (78950?) and have no trouble handling them with either my Orvis 5wt (8-1/2' Henry's Fork) or my St Croix 9' 6 wt. The thing is, I'm fishing small to mediums sizes streams where 50' is a long cast, and much of the fishing is accomplished with roll casts. Fishing requiring longer casts could change the equation. Most of the Rangeley designs were originally intended for trolling, and were tied on the longer (8x+) hooks, or with a stinger hook. These patterns have been adapted quite well to the somewhat shorter hooks for stream fishing, and they are still favorites for fishing in northern New England. I fish them deep, so I favor a heavier hook. One tip. If you're tying with traditional feather wings or marabou, keep the wings a bit short, or add a small bunch of bucktail between the body and the wing to keep the wing from wrapping around the hook during casting. I'll bet Peter Charles will have some valuable info on this subject. fwiw, I believe the Carrie Stevens style Partridge hooks were 10XL... |
John Jarmo, The place to get the best info would be the Streamers John group on Yahoo.com. This group is dedicated to New England John style streamers. Thanks, John, I'll take a look. -- Jarmo Hurri Commercial email countermeasures included in header email address. Remove all garbage from header email address when replying, or just use . |
Mike Most of the originals were designed for trolling ("Trailing" is Mike the correct term, but everybody uses the term "trolling"). And Mike so casting was not a problem. I guess the originals were something like 10x long - maybe 6x would be a good compromise. Mike I like the looks of these flies, and as I said, I did try a Mike couple for a while on light gear, but my preference for flies of Mike this size, would still be hairwings, and preferably with Mike synthetics, as they donīt become waterlogged. I guess stuff like Slinky Fibre or something similar could be used, but I see two open questions. 1. What's a good synthetic material to achieve good movement in running water? 2. How do you tie the fly so that it has very slim profile (this can be achieved easily with feather wings)? Mike The light variations of these streamers should be OK, even in Mike very large sizes, but the original constructed wing designs get Mike waterlogged very quickly, and are quite heavy as a result. Mike Also, if you use light hooks, you may have a problem with the Mike flies not swimming correctly. The heavy wire hooks act as a Mike "keel" in the water.The feathers themselves are relatively Mike buoyant. Mike It seems that not many dress the full Carrie Stevens type of Mike streamers any more anyway. According to my info, the wings of Mike these flies were constructed separately, and then mounted on the Mike hook. I have seen quite a few such flies, ( Grey Ghost, Mike etc)where not all the original materials were used, and also Mike only tied with single cock hackles etc. Such flies will of Mike course be a lot easier to cast on light gear. But they will also Mike not give you a very solid silhouette. Good points. Mike Only real way to find out if they are suited to your purposes is Mike to try them out. The problem is that wintertime is the time to tie flies, but it's pretty hard to test them now... -- Jarmo Hurri Commercial email countermeasures included in header email address. Remove all garbage from header email address when replying, or just use . |
"Jarmo Hurri" wrote in message ... SNIP I guess stuff like Slinky Fibre or something similar could be used, but I see two open questions. 1. What's a good synthetic material to achieve good movement in running water? 2. How do you tie the fly so that it has very slim profile (this can be achieved easily with feather wings)? SNIP I would go for a mixture at first. Some synthetic, there are loads to choose from, as a "core wing" and Arctic fox. You could of course just use Arctic fox if you donīt fancy synthetics. Sparse flies are usually much more effective anyway. If you tie them sparse, they will be slim as well. The problem is that wintertime is the time to tie flies, but it's pretty hard to test them now... Indeed, and I sympathise. At least in my case, I hope to remedy that quite soon! :) Looking at the patterns in some of my books etc, the Rangely style flies have often been altered almost beyond recognition. As I said, many with just two cock hackles for a wing, no cheeks, or eyes etc. These will work sometimes, but according to your original post that is not what you are looking for. If you want a solid silhouette, movement, some translucence, then I would go for something like this; ( Just general examples) http://members.ij.net/danscustomflys...dBassFlies.htm but tied a lot slimmer and sparser, and on long shank hooks, or with "stingers" ( Trailing single or treble). The range of possibilities is massive in the meantime. You can easily use the Rangeley streamers as a "base pattern", and use hair etc to copy them. Usually it is better to work from the baitfish you are trying to represent though. Many of the original Rangely style streamers, are pure fantasy. They look nice, and may even catch a fish occasionally. But for casting and fishing purposes on light gear, I donīt think they are anywhere near as good as they should be. There are far better alternatives. There are many problems with large sized feather fibre lures for casting. You can still dress a few, and try them when you get the chance. It is always better to have oneīs own experience of these things. -- Jarmo Hurri TL MC |
Mike If you want a solid silhouette, movement, some translucence, Mike then I would go for something like this; ( Just general Mike examples) Mike http://members.ij.net/danscustomflys...dBassFlies.htm Mike but tied a lot slimmer and sparser, and on long shank hooks, or Mike with "stingers" ( Trailing single or treble). The range of Mike possibilities is massive in the meantime. I will start experimenting, first by taking an inventory of the different types of materials available. Mike You can easily use the Rangeley streamers as a "base pattern", Mike and use hair etc to copy them. Usually it is better to work Mike from the baitfish you are trying to represent though. One of my objectives is to make some really big "trout flies". If you read the reports from the Lappland clave from last year, you know why. :-) Thanks for the help, Mike. -- Jarmo Hurri Commercial email countermeasures included in header email address. Remove all garbage from header email address when replying, or just use . |
"Jarmo Hurri" wrote in message ... SNIP Thanks for the help, Mike. -- Jarmo Hurri Yeah well, I am not sure I helped you much at all! But I appreciate the sentiment. TL MC |
Jarmo Hurri wrote:
One of my objectives is to make some really big "trout flies". If you read the reports from the Lappland clave from last year, you know why. :-) Thanks for the help, Mike. Jarmo, Take a look at this or some of his other patterns, might be something you can steal. http://www.vigsbigflies.com/id204.htm And these guys have some nice hooks for this type of streamer. I bought some with the same thing in mind. The #8s I bought are way too small and I am leaning towards #4s. I suspect #2s would be better trolling flies than casting flies. http://www.belvoirdale.com/ cheers Vaughan |
Hi Vaughan, Glad to see you here. We've got a common interest in this, don't we? :-) Vaughan Take a look at this or some of his other patterns, might be Vaughan something you can steal. Vaughan http://www.vigsbigflies.com/id204.htm Pretty damn good-looking flies, I must say. I'm not much of an artist, so I definitely need patterns like these to start with. Vaughan And these guys have some nice hooks for this type of Vaughan streamer. I bought some with the same thing in mind. The #8s Vaughan I bought are way too small and I am leaning towards #4s. I Vaughan suspect #2s would be better trolling flies than casting Vaughan flies. Vaughan http://www.belvoirdale.com/ These are the hooks that got the best reviews in the streamer section of globalflyfisher. Size 4 is the one I am aiming for right now. But I also plan to tie some *really* big ones (I've already got the formulae for these), assuming that we can take an 8wt or a 9wt along. I am going to make sure that our success will not be hampered by fly size! I haven't been able to buy that digital camera yet - selection anxiety, too many models to choose from - but as soon as I do, I will email you pictures of my experiments. Now I've got to continue tying a batch of ESPs. We'll keep in touch. -- Jarmo Hurri Commercial email countermeasures included in header email address. Remove all garbage from header email address when replying, or just use . |
On 3 Feb 2005 05:38:37 -0800, "George Adams"
wrote: I'll bet Peter Charles will have some valuable info on this subject. Actually, not much as I don't tie this style of streamer anymore. On my last trip to the Rapid, I bought a few local ties and caught fish on those. The more time I spend with streamers, the less interest I have in fishing the classic style pattterns as they come with a host of built-in limitations. They obviously work and I've caught fish on them but I prefer different approaches now. Still, it's a great project for the winter. Jarmo, do enjoy, they're great patterns and a nice piece of tradition. Peter turn mailhot into hotmail to reply Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharl...ers/index.html |
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