question on droppers
 

The past few years I've been fishing 2 nymphs, tying a dropper off the
hook of the top nymph. I've found that about 95% of the time I only
catch fish on the bottom nymph. I've even switched them around on some
days just to experiment. I was wondering if others have the same
experience and might know why this is?


--
flyman23

:fish:
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question on droppers
 

flyman23 wrote in
:


The past few years I've been fishing 2 nymphs, tying a dropper off the
hook of the top nymph. I've found that about 95% of the time I only
catch fish on the bottom nymph. I've even switched them around on some
days just to experiment. I was wondering if others have the same
experience and might know why this is?



Some might say the top nymph will get the attention, and the bottom nymph
will get the bite. For me, though, its much closer to 50-50.

Great technique. Doubles your chance of getting a good dead drift in the
right place. I like tying a beadhead on as the top nymph, and a beadless
version of the same imitation as the trailer. If the water seems real
fast, a tungsten bead might be the way to go.


--
Scott
Reverse name to reply

question on droppers
 

In my experience, tying on the hookbend -seems -to interfere with
hooking fish. I switched to tying the "top" fly off the tag end of the
knot i add my terminal section of tippet to and have seen improvements.
it also seems to cast better for me with fewer tangles.


--
eddavidson9
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question on droppers
 

On Nov 6, 6:43 am, eddavidson9
wrote:
In my experience, tying on the hookbend -seems -to interfere with
hooking fish. I switched to tying the "top" fly off the tag end of the
knot i add my terminal section of tippet to and have seen improvements.
it also seems to cast better for me with fewer tangles.

--
eddavidson9
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I agree. At one point a guide showed me a method he used that I have
adopted. He would take a short (3-5") section of fairly stout and
stiff material, say 6-8 Lb test, tie a perfection loop in it, and loop
it onto the main leader above the tippet knot. With knotted leaders
you can place several of these up the leader with different selections
for the fish to inspect. I like this rather than tying to the bend in
the hook method because it allows me to change the upper fly without
retying the lower and it allows me to change the separation between
the two flies without much hassle. When the upper dropper gets to
short you can tie another one on without rebuilding the leader.

JM

question on droppers
 

flyman23 wrote:
The past few years I've been fishing 2 nymphs, tying a dropper off the
hook of the top nymph. I've found that about 95% of the time I only
catch fish on the bottom nymph. I've even switched them around on some
days just to experiment. I was wondering if others have the same
experience and might know why this is?



It is mainly because the action of the first nymph is "strangled" by the
way it is attached. Also this method of attachment interferes with
hook-ups, and will also prevent you from detecting takes. It is likely
that you get just as many takes to the dropper nymph, but the fish
nudges it away, and you dont see them. This also depends on the patterns
you use. patterns with a little more hackle or rough dubbing tend to
work better even when somewhat strangled, than weighted streamlined nymphs.

Also, you might like to try using a leader ring to attach your dropper
fly and point nymph;

http://www.mike-connor.homepage.t-on...s/leaders.html

TL
MC

question on droppers
 

On 6 Nov 2007 13:15:53 GMT, Scott Seidman
wrote:

If the water seems real
fast, a tungsten bead might be the way to go

Or very deep. When it is deep of fast, I tend to use a weighted
stonefly nymph as the top one (to get the rig down) and the *entended*
fly as the bottom one.

Years ago when I got into nymphing I always fished with multiple flies
(I stopped at 3). The biggest problem I had with them was tangles,
especially after catching a fish. There is also the danger of
catching two or three (!) fish at a time. I know it sounds good, but
you really don't want that to happen. I've had two on at the same
time and it broke the tippet. And, the only time I have hooked myself
deeply was on a multi-fly set up while removing the hook from the
fish. One slip, the fish was back in the water, and the other hook
was deep in my finger - no barb, thankyouverymuch!

I now fish with only one nymph and use non-toxic shot to get it down.
Remember, you want the drift to be slower than the surface water
(bubbles, foam, stuff on the surface is how you would measure the
surface speed). Having more than 1 fly can often upset your "tuning"
of the rig, i.e., getting the drift at the right depth and speed.

But, hey. Experiment. It is always a good practice to do so. Best
to learn the circle cast also as used by Lefty. No false casts.
Simply pick up the rig after it has gone past you down-stream and in
one giant lob, cast it back up-stream.

Dave

question on droppers
 

On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 09:43:15 -0500, eddavidson9
wrote:

In my experience, tying on the hookbend -seems -to interfere with
hooking fish. I switched to tying the "top" fly off the tag end of the
knot i add my terminal section of tippet to and have seen improvements.
it also seems to cast better for me with fewer tangles.

I agree. There are several methods beside using the bend of the hook,
but I like the tag end of the tippet/leader knot.

Dave

question on droppers
 

Dave LaCourse wrote in
:

I agree. There are several methods beside using the bend of the hook,
but I like the tag end of the tippet/leader knot.



That's what I'll usually do, if I can remember to do it. If not, I'll just
tie on to the bend and take my lumps.

--
Scott
Reverse name to reply

question on droppers
 

On 6 Nov, 23:44, Dave LaCourse wrote:
On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 09:43:15 -0500, eddavidson9

wrote:
In my experience, tying on the hookbend -seems -to interfere with
hooking fish. I switched to tying the "top" fly off the tag end of the
knot i add my terminal section of tippet to and have seen improvements.
it also seems to cast better for me with fewer tangles.

I agree. There are several methods beside using the bend of the hook,
but I like the tag end of the tippet/leader knot.

Dave

If you only fish with one nymph, why would you need the tag end of a
knot for attaching another one?

Apart from which, using the tag end of a knot is asking for a break,
it is a very weak rig, and not at all advisable.

MC

question on droppers
 

"Mike" wrote in message
ups.com...

snip

Apart from which, using the tag end of a knot is asking for a break,
it is a very weak rig, and not at all advisable.

MC


Maybe so, but in 30+ years of fishing for steelhead with a two fly rig,
swinging flys on or near the surface, that has been my standard set-up and
it has never given me any problem. I almost invariably use hand tied leaders
of Maxima Chameleon with 8# tippet and 10# next section. The dropper fly is
tied on the 10# tag end.

I don't know how many steelhead I've caught in that time, but it has to be
high in the thousands with the largest being a 22#er. Many many years ago I
thought it was my duty to catch as many steelhead as possible, and in the
last season of that period of my evolution as a steelheader I stopped
counting 2/3 of the way through the season at 200 fish brought to hand..

Have I had fish break off? Of course, far more than I like to admit. But
I can probably count the number that broke off at the first blood knot as a
result of using the tag for a dropper on my hands with fingers left over.
Most breaks occured: 1. At the connection of the tippet to the point fly,
2. At previously unnoticed rock nicks, or 3. At unnoticed (or to lazy to
deal with) wind knots.

I have however acquired some leader rings (per your suggestion) and will
likely switch over to them so I don't have to replace both the 8# and 10#
sections as often.

Bob Weinberger

question on droppers
 

Mike wrote in news:1194390162.416904.256310
@z9g2000hsf.googlegroups.com:

Apart from which, using the tag end of a knot is asking for a break,
it is a very weak rig, and not at all advisable.



The way this is often done is to use the tag end of the blood knot that
attaches tippet to leader. It doesn't seem particularly weak, and I've
never had a break there. When I nymph, I get caught on bottom plenty, and
my chaotic attempts to free up often result in breaks, but not at that
knot.


--
Scott
Reverse name to reply

question on droppers
 

On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 15:02:42 -0800, Mike
wrote:

If you only fish with one nymph, why would you need the tag end of a
knot for attaching another one?

I said I sometimes have fished doubles, even triples. If I would use
a double, I would use the tag method. Works find and have never had a
break off. I have also used the tie in at the hook, and have taken
fish on *that* fly. No trouble hooking up

Apart from which, using the tag end of a knot is asking for a break,
it is a very weak rig, and not at all advisable.

All the *experts* on nymphing use this method, Connor. I have used it
and have never had a break off *except* when I had two fish on and it
was too much for a 5x tippet. However, I generally prefer a single
fly, especially if I know what they want. Fish are like women,
Connor; find out what they want it give it to them.

Daveyboy

question on droppers
 

I would wholeheartedly agree with the others who wrote same, that the
dropper from the tag on the blood knot is a very good system. Keep the
dropper a manageable length, and be sure to use the tag from the stronger of
the two pieces of nylon, and this rig seldom fails or hangs up.
I fish pairs of wets pretty frequently, and have done so with this rig for
over 30 years.
Tom

question on droppers
 

Bob Weinberger wrote:
"Mike" wrote in message
ups.com...

snip

Apart from which, using the tag end of a knot is asking for a break,
it is a very weak rig, and not at all advisable.

MC


Maybe so, but in 30+ years of fishing for steelhead with a two fly rig,
swinging flys on or near the surface, that has been my standard set-up and
it has never given me any problem. I almost invariably use hand tied leaders
of Maxima Chameleon with 8# tippet and 10# next section. The dropper fly is
tied on the 10# tag end.

I don't know how many steelhead I've caught in that time, but it has to be
high in the thousands with the largest being a 22#er. Many many years ago I
thought it was my duty to catch as many steelhead as possible, and in the
last season of that period of my evolution as a steelheader I stopped
counting 2/3 of the way through the season at 200 fish brought to hand..

Have I had fish break off? Of course, far more than I like to admit. But
I can probably count the number that broke off at the first blood knot as a
result of using the tag for a dropper on my hands with fingers left over.
Most breaks occured: 1. At the connection of the tippet to the point fly,
2. At previously unnoticed rock nicks, or 3. At unnoticed (or to lazy to
deal with) wind knots.

I have however acquired some leader rings (per your suggestion) and will
likely switch over to them so I don't have to replace both the 8# and 10#
sections as often.

Bob Weinberger





I used that system quite a lot for a while, years ago, but I got too
many breaks at the knot when using fine nylon. Always on snags. I know
quite a few other people who have had problems with it as well, and lost
fish as a result. There is also quite a bit of info on the web about
it.A search will turn it up.

In thicker nylon, it will not cause the same problems, as the reduction
in breaking strain is not then really relevant.

I dont count fish, it just seems pointless. That is not a crticism of
anybody who does so, it is just something I don´t do.

I have never had a fish break off, although I lost a large seatrout once
when the knot failed. Obviously my fault for tying a bad knot.

Since using the leader rings, I have had no problems at all. Also very
much more convenient for changing tippet or droppers etc.

The blood knot itself can also be very unreliable, and must be tied very
very carefully indeed. there are quite a few better knots.

A simple pull test will serve to demonstrate the weakness of a blood
knot in comparison to others. using the tag end of such a knot is really
asking for trouble. Of course, peoplem ay use whatever they please, and
if it works OK that is fine. I merely gave my opinion.

TL
MC

question on droppers
 

flyman23 wrote:
The past few years I've been fishing 2 nymphs, tying a dropper off the
hook of the top nymph. I've found that about 95% of the time I only
catch fish on the bottom nymph. I've even switched them around on some
days just to experiment. I was wondering if others have the same
experience and might know why this is?



I've noticed this phenomenon, too. Every tandem nymph fisherman must
have noticed.

What's happening, I'm convinced, is that when a fish takes our top nymph
we're too late to strike, and we snag the fish with the bottom nymph.
This doesn't happen every time, but it happens often enough to bias the
outcome heavily in favor of the bottom nymph.

Whether you think this is sporting is up to you. All I know is that I
ALWAYS fish (at least) two nymphs -- when I'm fishing nymphs, that is.

It's not much different than catching trout with pegged bead eggs. That
works, too.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

question on droppers
 

On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 03:44:27 -0500, flyman23
wrote:


The past few years I've been fishing 2 nymphs, tying a dropper off the
hook of the top nymph. I've found that about 95% of the time I only
catch fish on the bottom nymph. I've even switched them around on some
days just to experiment. I was wondering if others have the same
experience and might know why this is?


For the large fast flowing rivers of the central North Island of NZ
this is the preferred method of nymphing. The top nymph incorporates a
lot of lead and/or tungsten and is used purely to get the nymphs down.
This heavy nymph hardly resembles a natural but the dropper nymph (8"
- 10" below) is much smaller and resembles the local insects -
therefore it is the major fish catcher. Also the nymph on the dropper
appears to move through the water with a more natural manner. This
does not stop the odd trout impaling itself on the "bomb".

Smaller streams require a different set up.

question on droppers
 

"Jim" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 03:44:27 -0500, flyman23
wrote:


The past few years I've been fishing 2 nymphs, tying a dropper off the
hook of the top nymph. I've found that about 95% of the time I only
catch fish on the bottom nymph. I've even switched them around on some
days just to experiment. I was wondering if others have the same
experience and might know why this is?


For the large fast flowing rivers of the central North Island of NZ
this is the preferred method of nymphing. The top nymph incorporates a
lot of lead and/or tungsten and is used purely to get the nymphs down.
This heavy nymph hardly resembles a natural but the dropper nymph (8"
- 10" below) is much smaller and resembles the local insects -
therefore it is the major fish catcher. Also the nymph on the dropper
appears to move through the water with a more natural manner. This
does not stop the odd trout impaling itself on the "bomb".

Smaller streams require a different set up.


Anyone still use split shots and no beaded nymphs?
-tom

question on droppers
 

On 7 Nov, 19:51, "Tom Nakashima" wrote:
"Jim" wrote in message

...



On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 03:44:27 -0500, flyman23
wrote:

The past few years I've been fishing 2 nymphs, tying a dropper off the
hook of the top nymph. I've found that about 95% of the time I only
catch fish on the bottom nymph. I've even switched them around on some
days just to experiment. I was wondering if others have the same
experience and might know why this is?

For the large fast flowing rivers of the central North Island of NZ
this is the preferred method of nymphing. The top nymph incorporates a
lot of lead and/or tungsten and is used purely to get the nymphs down.
This heavy nymph hardly resembles a natural but the dropper nymph (8"
- 10" below) is much smaller and resembles the local insects -
therefore it is the major fish catcher. Also the nymph on the dropper
appears to move through the water with a more natural manner. This
does not stop the odd trout impaling itself on the "bomb".

Smaller streams require a different set up.

Anyone still use split shots and no beaded nymphs?
-tom

I use shot for some techniques, but I usually prefer to use "sheet
anchor" flies in specific weights and sizes for most techniques. Using
shot on the point or on a dropper can be a very useful technique,
especially in snaggy water, or when you wish to fish a point fly at a
specific distance from the bottom. In snaggy water don´t use a stop
knot, and the shot will simply pull off if it snags;

http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/5810/shotrighk5.jpg


http://www.mike-connor.homepage.t-on...d_leaders.html

http://www.mike-connor.homepage.t-on...sentation.html

http://www.mike-connor.homepage.t-on...tactics_3.html

I don´t like crimping shot directly to the main leader, as apart from
possibly damaging the line as a result, this often results in very
inelegant casting. Also, naked shot on the leader can ding your rod
badly if you miscalculate or a gust of wind surprises you etc.

I don´t like bead head nymphs, and I don´t use them, for similar
reasons, and also because I find them aesthetically and traditionally
displeasing.

TL
MC

question on droppers
 

"Mike" wrote in message
ps.com...
On 7 Nov, 19:51, "Tom Nakashima" wrote:

Anyone still use split shots and no beaded nymphs?
-tom

I use shot for some techniques, but I usually prefer to use "sheet
anchor" flies in specific weights and sizes for most techniques. Using
shot on the point or on a dropper can be a very useful technique,
especially in snaggy water, or when you wish to fish a point fly at a
specific distance from the bottom. In snaggy water don´t use a stop
knot, and the shot will simply pull off if it snags;

http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/5810/shotrighk5.jpg

TL
MC

I use a similar rigging with a split/s and a separate short tippet and
no-knot, weight depending on "current". If I snag, I don't lose the fly,
just the split.
I rarely use beaded nymphs, and prefer no tandems.
-tom

question on droppers
 

On Wed, 7 Nov 2007 10:51:43 -0800, "Tom Nakashima"
wrote:

Anyone still use split shots and no beaded nymphs?

That is my normal nymphing rig. I usually know what will work on my
home waters, so I use just one nymph on the end of an 18 inch tippet.
I put non-toxic split shot at the tippet/leader knot (generally a
double surgeon's knot. I will "tune" the rig by adding or subtracting
weight until I get the right drift. I generally do not use a strike
indicator, but if I do I tune it for the right depth.

Although I have them, I don't like using beaded nymphs if they are the
metal type. I have glass beads on many of my home-ties and they do
not add that much weight to the fly.

Dave

question on droppers
 

"Dave LaCourse" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 7 Nov 2007 10:51:43 -0800, "Tom Nakashima"
wrote:

Anyone still use split shots and no beaded nymphs?

That is my normal nymphing rig. I usually know what will work on my
home waters, so I use just one nymph on the end of an 18 inch tippet.
I put non-toxic split shot at the tippet/leader knot (generally a
double surgeon's knot. I will "tune" the rig by adding or subtracting
weight until I get the right drift. I generally do not use a strike
indicator, but if I do I tune it for the right depth.

Although I have them, I don't like using beaded nymphs if they are the
metal type. I have glass beads on many of my home-ties and they do
not add that much weight to the fly.

Dave

Same here Dave,
I like the idea of adding and subtracting weight depending on
the current and drift.
I remember someone asking about choice of flies. And I added;
First think:
1. Size
2. Then Pattern
3. Then Color

With Nymphs it's slightly different;
First think;
1. Size
2. Action
3. Texture
4. Pattern
5. Color

By action, I like to try to get the drift right by using a non beaded
nymph and adding splits and a single fly. I usually start out with the
Fuzzy Hare's Ear. Just love the way it tumbles through the feeding zones. I
also don't use an indicator, just hate them, and this is where
texture comes into play. Fish will eject as fast as they detect.

I also like active nymphing, pulling fish out of the feeding zones.
Soft Hackle Woolly Worm, or Streamers. Again action, they'll sometimes
chase and strike just out of curiosity.
-tom

question on droppers
 

I tried experimenting with something last year. I work Frog's Fanny
(i.e., hydrophobic Cabosil) into the dubbing of my dropper nymph
(preferably done when I tie them, but it also works after the fact).
This makes the fly buoyant and causes it (I believe) to float above the
weight or above the weighted top nymph. The fish seem to like it, and it
results in fewer snags. Some say that the Frog's Fanny makes bubbles
that imitate a natural.

BTW, I prefer using weight instead of bead-head nymphs.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

question on droppers
 

On 8 Nov, 15:44, rw wrote:
I tried experimenting with something last year. I work Frog's Fanny
(i.e., hydrophobic Cabosil) into the dubbing of my dropper nymph
(preferably done when I tie them, but it also works after the fact).
This makes the fly buoyant and causes it (I believe) to float above the
weight or above the weighted top nymph. The fish seem to like it, and it
results in fewer snags. Some say that the Frog's Fanny makes bubbles
that imitate a natural.

BTW, I prefer using weight instead of bead-head nymphs.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

I have not used either Frog´s Fanny, or the fumed silica, but I agree
with waterproofing a lot of nymphs. I generally use watershed on the
dubbing. It can and often does make a very big difference. Of course,
one must then weight the nymphs, or use them on weighted rigs of some
description.

One nymph that works very well indeed for a host of situations is a
pheasant tail/ hare´s ear nymph. The abdomen is pheasant tail, and the
thorax hare´s ear. I put a drop of watershed on the thorax immediately
after dressing the flies. These flies are a lot more buoyant, and
they catch more fish as well. The silvery appearance caused by small
bubbles obviously enhances the fly´s attraction to the fish
considerably, ( I know there is a lot of discussion and controversy
about this).

After some experimentation, I also now have a range of soft hackles
where I waterproof the thorax ( where present) AND the soft hackle
with watershed. When fished as emergers in the film, these catch A
LOT! more fish, and they also work better when used on various
weighted rigs. A couple of hair hackles I use are also a lot more
effective after this treatment. This is one which has been very very
successful indeed;

http://www.mike-connor.homepage.t-on..._squirrel.html

TL
MC

question on droppers
 

On Thu, 08 Nov 2007 07:44:30 -0700, rw
wrote:

I tried experimenting with something last year. I work Frog's Fanny
(i.e., hydrophobic Cabosil) into the dubbing of my dropper nymph
(preferably done when I tie them, but it also works after the fact).
This makes the fly buoyant and causes it (I believe) to float above the
weight or above the weighted top nymph. The fish seem to like it, and it
results in fewer snags. Some say that the Frog's Fanny makes bubbles
that imitate a natural.

BTW, I prefer using weight instead of bead-head nymphs.

I've used Frog's Fanny in the same way and it works very well with
LaFontain's caddis pupa. I am sure that your assessment about the
nymph floating higher is correct.

Dave