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Turning a fish upside down
I've been watching the "New Fly Fisher" which broadcast Sunday
mornings. Yesterday I learned that if you turn a fish upside down while they're in the water, they'll lose equilibrium and won't struggle. Makes it easy to unhook and release them. -tom |
Turning a fish upside down
On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 10:08:45 -0800, "Tom Nakashima"
wrote: I've been watching the "New Fly Fisher" which broadcast Sunday mornings. Yesterday I learned that if you turn a fish upside down while they're in the water, they'll lose equilibrium and won't struggle. Makes it easy to unhook and release them. -tom That's a well known way to avoid having to use a net. Coupled with a barbless hook it's about the least stressful way to turn a caught fish loose... /daytripper (Keep watching, all kinds of neat tricks out there :-) |
Turning a fish upside down
"daytripper" wrote to avoid having to use a net. Coupled with a barbless hook it's about the least stressful way to turn a caught fish loose... /daytripper (Keep watching, all kinds of neat tricks out there :-) it does work very well BUT I still carry a net on waters where bigger fish are a real possibilty .... the net allows me to subdue a big, hot, fish, faster, when he's not so tired yet. I can get him in a net sooner than I would be able to "grab" him. Once in the net and still thrashing, I turn him upside down to make dehooking easier .... and it's been a few years since I fished with a barbed hook ( yeah I "early release" a few more than I did with barbed hooks, but that isn't a big deal ) |
Turning a fish upside down
"Larry L" wrote in message ... "daytripper" wrote to avoid having to use a net. Coupled with a barbless hook it's about the least stressful way to turn a caught fish loose... /daytripper (Keep watching, all kinds of neat tricks out there :-) it does work very well BUT I still carry a net on waters where bigger fish are a real possibilty .... the net allows me to subdue a big, hot, fish, faster, when he's not so tired yet. I can get him in a net sooner than I would be able to "grab" him. Once in the net and still thrashing, I turn him upside down to make dehooking easier .... and it's been a few years since I fished with a barbed hook ( yeah I "early release" a few more than I did with barbed hooks, but that isn't a big deal ) Yes, that's exactly what the angler did, get the fish in the net first, then turn it upside down to unhook and release. I didn't know a fish would lose equilibrium in water if they were turned upside down. Man doesn't lose equilibrium in water. -tom |
Turning a fish upside down
"daytripper" wrote in message ... On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 10:08:45 -0800, "Tom Nakashima" wrote: I've been watching the "New Fly Fisher" which broadcast Sunday mornings. Yesterday I learned that if you turn a fish upside down while they're in the water, they'll lose equilibrium and won't struggle. Makes it easy to unhook and release them. -tom That's a well known way to avoid having to use a net. Coupled with a barbless hook it's about the least stressful way to turn a caught fish loose... /daytripper (Keep watching, all kinds of neat tricks out there :-) Great to learn new things. -tom |
Turning a fish upside down
"Tom Nakashima" wrote Man doesn't lose equilibrium in water. -tom You have OBVIOUSLY NEVER seen me attempt to wade |
Turning a fish upside down
"Larry L" wrote in message ... "Tom Nakashima" wrote Man doesn't lose equilibrium in water. -tom You have OBVIOUSLY NEVER seen me attempt to wade LOL... Hey, my friend fantasizes of banging a mermaid someday, I better tell him to be on top. -tom |
Turning a fish upside down
"Tom Nakashima" wrote in message ... Man doesn't lose equilibrium in water. Not true. Wolfgang |
Turning a fish upside down
"Wolfgang" wrote in message ... "Tom Nakashima" wrote in message ... Man doesn't lose equilibrium in water. Not true. Wolfgang You're right, Man can lose equilibrium out of water as well. -tom |
Turning a fish upside down
Tom Nakashima wrote:
I've been watching the "New Fly Fisher" which broadcast Sunday mornings. Yesterday I learned that if you turn a fish upside down while they're in the water, they'll lose equilibrium and won't struggle. Makes it easy to unhook and release them. -tom It works with trout, but (in my experience) with whitefish. -- Cut "to the chase" for my email address. |
Turning a fish upside down
"Wolfgang" wrote in news:5s5gs2F153pe0U1
@mid.individual.net: "Tom Nakashima" wrote in message ... Man doesn't lose equilibrium in water. Not true. Wolfgang Correct. The semicircular canals have no problem, but the otolith organs get confused because there is a bouyancy in addition to gravity. How this manifests is interesting, but the bottom line is that a diver can become very disoriented in water, enough that the most reliable way of telling "which way is up" is to follow your air bubbles. It's much like microgravity during space travel. Oddly, divers don't get microgravity sickness like 50% of the astronauts, but that might have something to do with the lenght of exposure. One of the things that really gets astronauts hurling is odd visual cues. Some of the compartments on the space station and shuttle, for example, have different "up" directions, simply because thats how the things were built. Walking (or floating) from a room with one orientation to the next with different orientation could very well be the trigger for the ride on the porcelain bus. Underwater, though, I suppose visual cues can be very limited, and this might contribute to disorientation. I don't know why fish go into some sort of paralytic state when held upside down, but it might be vestibular. Would be very interesting to find out, anyway. -- Scott Reverse name to reply |
Turning a fish upside down
rw wrote:
Tom Nakashima wrote: I've been watching the "New Fly Fisher" which broadcast Sunday mornings. Yesterday I learned that if you turn a fish upside down while they're in the water, they'll lose equilibrium and won't struggle. Makes it easy to unhook and release them. -tom It works with trout, but (in my experience) with whitefish. Should be: NOT with whitefish. -- Cut "to the chase" for my email address. |
Turning a fish upside down
"rw" wrote in message ... rw wrote: Tom Nakashima wrote: I've been watching the "New Fly Fisher" which broadcast Sunday mornings. Yesterday I learned that if you turn a fish upside down while they're in the water, they'll lose equilibrium and won't struggle. Makes it easy to unhook and release them. -tom It works with trout, but (in my experience) with whitefish. Should be: NOT with whitefish. I guess you know the question's coming... Why not whitefish, are their octavo-lateralis system different than trout? -tom |
Turning a fish upside down
"Tom Nakashima" wrote in
: Why not whitefish, are their octavo-lateralis system different than trout? So far as I can remember, both have auditory, linear acceleration, rotational acceleration, and lateral line components. We used to be taught, by the way, that lateral line was to hold fish steady in a current. Best evidence these days, which is extremely different from where we were 15 years ago, seems to be that the lateral line is for hunting (vibration localization), and not for orientation in a current. Bony fish have perfectly good semicircular canal and otolith systems for help with orientation. I think it remains to be seen whether the octavolateralis system is involved in this semi-paralytic response. -- Scott Reverse name to reply |
Turning a fish upside down
"rw" wrote It works with trout, but (in my experience) with whitefish. Should be: NOT with whitefish. Whitefish get a bad rap, IMHO ( not here, rw, just in general ;-) Two Whitey memories come to mind. A.) Every year on a certain unnamed famous stream that feeds Hebgen G, in a section little visited, the tricos bring tons of Whitefish up to feed on top .... it's great fun but tough on the fly tier as removing trico spinner patterns from the little whitefish mouths with forceps tears up my pattern too damn quickly. I only do this once each year, if that on average, but it is a day I look forward to as the year rolls round to August. B.) On the Ranch section of the HFork down some from Millionaires Pool, 3 Japanese anglers took up stations and tried to fool some fish. They were two males and a female. They fished a long time without success. Then the female hooked a fish, one that pulled hard and kept her busy some time. The male nearest her had visible drool running down his chin and I don't think it was over her, rather over her HFork fish ( HF is very popular with Japanese anglers, and many I met seem to approach it with near religious zeal ). As the fish neared the net, it became clear that it was a large Whitefish. The painfully envious male angler now totally changed composure and started pointing and chanting loudly so the other male would certainly hear. He repeatedly shouted things that, to me, sounded like" Yoko mattsui napanuso WHITEFISH nutsuimonaka !! " then laughed a loud, but distinctly un-genuine, guffaw. He repeated this to the point that the female angler looked near tears. Several times on the Fork I've wished I spoke some Japanese, because I meet some very nice people and would like to be able to share more easily. I run into one angler each year and we struggle for an hour or more as he shows me photos on his digital camera of fishing in his country and Fork rainbows he has fooled ... he gave me a wonderful cut-wing Flav tie of his own making and using wing material that I "think" he said was only available in Japan. ... it was truly lovely. BUT, this time I'd have given $50 to know how to say, in Japanese, " That Whitefish is a lot nicer catch than anything you've gotten, asshole." ---- FWIW, ALL injured male egos, regardless of country of origin can be disgusting to watch at work. ----- ( NOT something I learned today, but still worth bitching about ) OH, OH, and 93) I once caught a HUGE Whitey out of the Big Wood near that access by the RV park ... really huge, 30++ inches ... kinda cool on a #18 Brassie |
Turning a fish upside down
On Dec 10, 3:04 pm, Scott Seidman wrote:
I think it remains to be seen whether the octavolateralis system is involved in this semi-paralytic response. Did you ever get that article written, Scott, or are you just going to dribble it out to us here on ROFF? :-) Bill |
Turning a fish upside down
Tom Nakashima wrote:
"rw" wrote in message ... rw wrote: Tom Nakashima wrote: I've been watching the "New Fly Fisher" which broadcast Sunday mornings. Yesterday I learned that if you turn a fish upside down while they're in the water, they'll lose equilibrium and won't struggle. Makes it easy to unhook and release them. -tom It works with trout, but (in my experience) with whitefish. Should be: NOT with whitefish. I guess you know the question's coming... Why not whitefish, are their octavo-lateralis system different than trout? -tom I don't know why. It just seems to be the case. In general, I find whitefish to be far less cooperative than trout when it comes to removing hooks. -- Cut "to the chase" for my email address. |
Turning a fish upside down
Larry L typed:
"rw" wrote It works with trout, but (in my experience) with whitefish. Should be: NOT with whitefish. Whitefish get a bad rap, IMHO ( not here, rw, just in general ;-) Two Whitey memories come to mind. Only one comes to mind for me: "I'm gonna get me a shotgun and shoot all the whities I see I'm gonna get me a shotgun and shoot all the whities I see When I shoot all the whities I see, then whitey he won't bother me I'm gonna get me a shotgun and shoot all the whities I see" - Garrett Morris -- TL, Tim ------------------------- http://css.sbcma.com/timj |
Turning a fish upside down
"Scott Seidman" wrote in message . 1.4... "Tom Nakashima" wrote in : Why not whitefish, are their octavo-lateralis system different than trout? So far as I can remember, both have auditory, linear acceleration, rotational acceleration, and lateral line components. We used to be taught, by the way, that lateral line was to hold fish steady in a current. Best evidence these days, which is extremely different from where we were 15 years ago, seems to be that the lateral line is for hunting (vibration localization), and not for orientation in a current. Bony fish have perfectly good semicircular canal and otolith systems for help with orientation. I think it remains to be seen whether the octavolateralis system is involved in this semi-paralytic response. Scott Reverse name to reply I was doing some research on lateral line, yes it seems they're used for detection of vibration localization to sense movement. A good example would be watching fish swim in schools when they dart in the same direction and maintain a tight group. I'm going to take a stab... Sensitivity to sound differs among fish species. Probably the biggest factor is how the inner ear reacts with the swim bladder. The swim bladder is the gas filled sac which maintains buoyancy. Since fish relay on sound pressure waves, I'm thinking, by turning a fish upside down it upsets how the brain interprets the sound pressure and they become disoriented to a state of docilely. -tom |
Turning a fish upside down
"Scott Seidman" wrote in message . 1.4... "Wolfgang" wrote in news:5s5gs2F153pe0U1 @mid.individual.net: "Tom Nakashima" wrote in message ... Man doesn't lose equilibrium in water. Not true. Wolfgang Correct. The semicircular canals have no problem, but the otolith organs get confused because there is a bouyancy in addition to gravity. How this manifests is interesting, but the bottom line is that a diver can become very disoriented in water, enough that the most reliable way of telling "which way is up" is to follow your air bubbles. It's much like microgravity during space travel. Oddly, divers don't get microgravity sickness like 50% of the astronauts, but that might have something to do with the lenght of exposure. One of the things that really gets astronauts hurling is odd visual cues. Some of the compartments on the space station and shuttle, for example, have different "up" directions, simply because thats how the things were built. Walking (or floating) from a room with one orientation to the next with different orientation could very well be the trigger for the ride on the porcelain bus. Underwater, though, I suppose visual cues can be very limited, and this might contribute to disorientation. It does. In addition, there are many other cues (besides the vestibular system and vision) that we normally use to determine orientation and maintain equilibrium. For one thing, there's simple upright posture. When horizontal, the human default condition is motionless. Most people don't have much trouble adjusting to such acitivities as swimming, for example, but some folks never can manage to overcome disorientation whenever moving while horizontal. While the vestibular system and visual cues are certainly involved here (usually) the kinesthetic sense is also crucially important. Your arms naturally hang "down." There is pressure on the bottoms of the feet. The head is balanced atop the neck. These are merely some of the more obvious cues. Others are much more subtle.....so much so that one never notices them on a conscious level. Hold your arm out and relax the muscles in your forearm....the wrist bends downward. Easily felt when you pay attention. But put your hand on a table (palm up or down....it doesn't matter) and relax. Can you feel the effects of gravity pulling the fingers down? Probably not. But the brain knows. I don't know why fish go into some sort of paralytic state when held upside down, but it might be vestibular. They don't always. For some fish, being upside down is a normal condition. Think, remoras, for example. Even in the context under consideration here, they don't always go limp when held upside down. As for what causes them to do so when they do, it doesn't seem likely to me that its a function of the vestibular system. Remember that this particular system is well insulated from outside influences by being contained within the head, and just about any fish must often find itself in other than an upright orientation. Other factors would apopear to be more likely. Would be very interesting to find out, anyway. Yep, and probably not too difficult to devise some simple experiments. Wolfgang |
Turning a fish upside down
"Wolfgang" wrote in news:5s5npoF16gia9U1
@mid.individual.net: the kinesthetic sense is also crucially important. You've been reading too much Mittelsteadt (sp?). -- Scott Reverse name to reply |
Turning a fish upside down
"Tom Nakashima" wrote in
: Since fish relay on sound pressure waves, I'm thinking, by turning a fish upside down it upsets how the brain interprets the sound pressure and they become disoriented to a state of docilely. Tough to say. I'd think that simply moving it out of water then would cause all sorts of impedence-matching problems, but you're right in that this seems to be a fairly complex multi-sensory system. Also, sensitivity to sound in different fish seems mostly related to the size of the fish. If you're real interested, I think the online version of J Comp Biol might be free this month-- at least I remember something about this in an email. My last go around with this stuff, much of the info seemed to come from this journal. -- Scott Reverse name to reply |
Turning a fish upside down
Larry L wrote:
B.) On the Ranch section of the HFork down some from Millionaires Pool, 3 Japanese anglers took up stations and tried to fool some fish. They were two males and a female. They fished a long time without success. Then the female hooked a fish, one that pulled hard and kept her busy some time. The male nearest her had visible drool running down his chin and I don't think it was over her, rather over her HFork fish ( HF is very popular with Japanese anglers, and many I met seem to approach it with near religious zeal ). As the fish neared the net, it became clear that it was a large Whitefish. I've seen huge whitefish there, but I've never been able to hook one. The Ranch section of Henry's Fork is one of the most difficult and frustrating places I've ever fished. OH, OH, and 93) I once caught a HUGE Whitey out of the Big Wood near that access by the RV park ... really huge, 30++ inches ... kinda cool on a #18 Brassie That's one of favorite accesses on the Big Wood. There are some very large whitefish in the Salmon River upstream from Stanley. I usually have no trouble filling my creel for the smoker. I'm pretty sure I've eaten a state record from there. Last year I was fishing for whitefish there and having no luck at all, when I noticed regular splashy rises along the undercut far bank. I figured they were trout, but I saw no bugs in the air. So I tied on the default fly for that stretch -- an EHC -- and gave it a go. Ended up catching several large whitefish. When I got them home and examined their stomachs I found that they were feeding on some kind of winged ant that must have been dropping into the river from a nest on the bank. -- Cut "to the chase" for my email address. |
Turning a fish upside down
"rw" wrote I've seen huge whitefish there, but I've never been able to hook one. The Ranch section of Henry's Fork is one of the most difficult and frustrating places I've ever fished. Yes indeed it is a humbling, frustrating, place. As you may have gathered from my posts, I dearly love the place. I spend at least 30 days there each year, and it's where I want my ashes spread when it comes to that. One of my two ( yep it's up to two ) photo essay/ book projects in the works will likely be called "Wood Road to Last Chance" .... the other " A Trout's Neighborhood" will be about many different rivers and areas ... including the ones I love near your cabin ( relatively near ;-) One thing I like about fishing at the Ranch is that MY standard issue fishing report .. i.e. "got skunked" .... still lets me compete with some pretty damn good anglers g --------- One day I chatted with Craig Mathews about catching Whitefish in the Madison and mentioned I'd been tempted to keep a few for dinner but I didn't have a smoker available. He launched into a very animated and excited listing of ways to prepare them ..... which I nearly instantly forgot. Anybody got any good, non-smoking, Whitefish recipes? here where I can cut and paste them into may traveling laptop. |
Turning a fish upside down
"Scott Seidman" wrote in message . 1.4... "Wolfgang" wrote in news:5s5npoF16gia9U1 @mid.individual.net: the kinesthetic sense is also crucially important. You've been reading too much Mittelsteadt (sp?). Never heard of her/him. By the way, I don't know what the "otolith organs" in fish are, but I'll assume they are analogous to the vestibular maculae (the utricle and the saccule) in humans. If so, their function is the perception of linear acceleration and thus buoyancy and gravity, in and of themselves, would have nothing whatsoever to do with a fish getting confused by being upside down......it is movement, and not position, that they respond to. And the semicircular canals are simply vessels filled with a fluid whose inertia causes it to move relative to the stereocilia on hair cells in the epithelium of cristae ampullaris to detect angular acceleration. Thus, it is accurate but misleading to state that "the semicircular canals have no problem." In any case, once again, these vestibular endorgans detect motion, not position. Wolfgang |
Turning a fish upside down
"Wolfgang" wrote in message ... "Scott Seidman" wrote in message . 1.4... "Wolfgang" wrote in news:5s5npoF16gia9U1 @mid.individual.net: the kinesthetic sense is also crucially important. You've been reading too much Mittelsteadt (sp?). Never heard of her/him. By the way, I don't know what the "otolith organs" in fish are, but I'll assume they are analogous to the vestibular maculae (the utricle and the saccule) in humans. If so, their function is the perception of linear acceleration and thus buoyancy and gravity, in and of themselves, would have nothing whatsoever to do with a fish getting confused by being upside down...... Wolfgang Otoliths are better known as earstones. They are calcium carbonate structures which are located behind the brain of bony fish. They are used to aid fish in balance and hearing in the same way the inner ear provides balance in humans. The three otoliths a Sagitta - which is the largest of the 3-pairs and are used for the detection of sound and converting sound waves into electrical signals. Asteriscus - which is the detection of sound and the process of hearing. Lapillus - which detects the gravitational forces and sound. Catfish have no problem swimming upside down or loss of equilibrium. Studies have found it is the swim bladder that maintains the upside-down swimming position, and postural control in catfish. -tom |
Turning a fish upside down
"Scott Seidman" wrote in message . 1.4... the size of the fish. If you're real interested, I think the online version of J Comp Biol might be free this month-- at least I remember something about this in an email. My last go around with this stuff, much of the info seemed to come from this journal. Scott Reverse name to reply Thanks Scott, Yes, I'm very much interested and will look into it. http://www.liebertpub.com/publication.aspx?pub_id=31 -tom |
Turning a fish upside down
"Tom Nakashima" wrote in news:fjm81b$hp4$1
@news.Stanford.EDU: http://www.liebertpub.com/publication.aspx?pub_id=31 Ooops, I meant Journal of Comparative Biology, or perhaps Integrative and Comparative Biology. Sorry I can't be more specific, but it was a glimpse at a quickly deleted email. Of course, it might have been talking about the J. Comp. Biol. that you've already found. Something tells me, though, that you can scrape up institutional subscriptions if you really want to! -- Scott Reverse name to reply |
Turning a fish upside down
"Wolfgang" wrote in
: If so, their function is the perception of linear acceleration and thus buoyancy and gravity, in and of themselves, would have nothing whatsoever to do with a fish getting confused by being upside down......it is movement, and not position, that they respond to. And the semicircular canals are simply vessels filled with a fluid whose inertia causes it to move relative to the stereocilia on hair cells in the epithelium of cristae ampullaris to detect angular acceleration. Thus, it is accurate but misleading to state that "the semicircular canals have no problem." In any case, once again, these vestibular endorgans detect motion, not position. If one looks very closely at the semicircular canals, the input to the biophysical model is of course angular acceleration, but because of the large radius of the canal as compared to the small radius of the lumen, a physical integration takes place, and the cupular displacement is most correlated with angular velocity. This is one of my favorite stories-- to bring it back to fish, this was first laid out by Steinhausen, Uber die Beobachtung der Cupula in den Bogengangsampullen des Labyrinths des lebenden Hechts, Pflugers Arch Ges Physiol 232(1933), (excuse the absence of diacriticals, please) in which he injected the cupula of the pike with india ink and measured its deflection during angular motion, modeling the system as a simple torsion pendulum. To this day, the equations are called the Steinhausen equations. The otolith organs (correctly identified as the sacculus and utricle) respond to linear accelerations, and as Einstein correctly pointed out, gravity is just a plain old linear acceleration (Einstein, The graviational equations and the problem of motion, Annals Mathematics, 1938). Thus, the otoliths detect, rather exquisitely, reorientations of the head with respect to gravity-- a la position, and at DC (i.e., constant). This is confirmable not only by the biophysics (Melvill-Jones, Biophysics of the Peripheral End Organs, in Wilson and Melvill-Jones, Mammalian Vestibular Physiology, Plenum, 1979), but right down to single-neuron recordings of eight nerve activity (Fernandez and Goldberg, J. Neurophysiol 39(1976) ). Of course, this creates an interesting story, in that the brain must make a decision about whether the head is undergoing a translational acceleration or a reorientation with respect to gravity when otolith activity is detected, and just how the brain does this is still a matter of debate. Part of the debate involves whether the canals are being used to help track tilt or not, but it turns out that the canals are not anywhere near the whole story. As luck would have it, I've spent a significant portion of my life knee deep in this debate. I think the first two here might just be reachable without subscriptions, but I'm not real sure. http://www.springerlink.com/content/...07661j7714/?p= 22aa7e9ac5804d34a83bcd5fddd5388a&pi=5 http://jn.physiology.org/cgi/content...oshow=&HITS=10 &hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&author1=au+yong&searchid=1& FIRSTINDEX=0 &sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=HWCIT http://www.springerlink.com/content/...myd35f8bky/?p= 22aa7e9ac5804d34a83bcd5fddd5388a&pi=4 -- Scott Reverse name to reply |
Turning a fish upside down
"Tom Nakashima" wrote in message ... "Wolfgang" wrote in message ... "Scott Seidman" wrote in message . 1.4... "Wolfgang" wrote in news:5s5npoF16gia9U1 @mid.individual.net: the kinesthetic sense is also crucially important. You've been reading too much Mittelsteadt (sp?). Never heard of her/him. By the way, I don't know what the "otolith organs" in fish are, but I'll assume they are analogous to the vestibular maculae (the utricle and the saccule) in humans. If so, their function is the perception of linear acceleration and thus buoyancy and gravity, in and of themselves, would have nothing whatsoever to do with a fish getting confused by being upside down...... Wolfgang Otoliths are better known as earstones. They are calcium carbonate structures which are located behind the brain of bony fish. They are used to aid fish in balance and hearing in the same way the inner ear provides balance in humans. The three otoliths a Sagitta - which is the largest of the 3-pairs and are used for the detection of sound and converting sound waves into electrical signals. Asteriscus - which is the detection of sound and the process of hearing. Lapillus - which detects the gravitational forces and sound. Catfish have no problem swimming upside down or loss of equilibrium. Studies have found it is the swim bladder that maintains the upside-down swimming position, and postural control in catfish. Ah. I see. Thanks for clearing that up for us. Wolfgang |
Turning a fish upside down
"Scott Seidman" wrote in message . 1.4... "Wolfgang" wrote in : If so, their function is the perception of linear acceleration and thus buoyancy and gravity, in and of themselves, would have nothing whatsoever to do with a fish getting confused by being upside down......it is movement, and not position, that they respond to. And the semicircular canals are simply vessels filled with a fluid whose inertia causes it to move relative to the stereocilia on hair cells in the epithelium of cristae ampullaris to detect angular acceleration. Thus, it is accurate but misleading to state that "the semicircular canals have no problem." In any case, once again, these vestibular endorgans detect motion, not position. If one looks very closely at the semicircular canals, the input to the biophysical model is of course angular acceleration, but because of the large radius of the canal as compared to the small radius of the lumen, a physical integration takes place, and the cupular displacement is most correlated with angular velocity. This is one of my favorite stories-- to bring it back to fish, this was first laid out by Steinhausen, Uber die Beobachtung der Cupula in den Bogengangsampullen des Labyrinths des lebenden Hechts, Pflugers Arch Ges Physiol 232(1933), (excuse the absence of diacriticals, please) in which he injected the cupula of the pike with india ink and measured its deflection during angular motion, modeling the system as a simple torsion pendulum. To this day, the equations are called the Steinhausen equations. The otolith organs (correctly identified as the sacculus and utricle) respond to linear accelerations, and as Einstein correctly pointed out, gravity is just a plain old linear acceleration (Einstein, The graviational equations and the problem of motion, Annals Mathematics, 1938). Thus, the otoliths detect, rather exquisitely, reorientations of the head with respect to gravity-- a la position, and at DC (i.e., constant). This is confirmable not only by the biophysics (Melvill-Jones, Biophysics of the Peripheral End Organs, in Wilson and Melvill-Jones, Mammalian Vestibular Physiology, Plenum, 1979), but right down to single-neuron recordings of eight nerve activity (Fernandez and Goldberg, J. Neurophysiol 39(1976) ). Of course, this creates an interesting story, in that the brain must make a decision about whether the head is undergoing a translational acceleration or a reorientation with respect to gravity when otolith activity is detected, and just how the brain does this is still a matter of debate. Part of the debate involves whether the canals are being used to help track tilt or not, but it turns out that the canals are not anywhere near the whole story. As luck would have it, I've spent a significant portion of my life knee deep in this debate. I think the first two here might just be reachable without subscriptions, but I'm not real sure. http://www.springerlink.com/content/...07661j7714/?p= 22aa7e9ac5804d34a83bcd5fddd5388a&pi=5 http://jn.physiology.org/cgi/content...oshow=&HITS=10 &hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&author1=au+yong&searchid=1& FIRSTINDEX=0 &sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=HWCIT http://www.springerlink.com/content/...myd35f8bky/?p= 22aa7e9ac5804d34a83bcd5fddd5388a&pi=4 Scott Reverse name to reply Very impressing Scott on the published journals. It would take me forever to try to understand. One thing I've been meaning to ask you, is how did you become interested in fly-fishing? -tom |
Turning a fish upside down
"Tom Nakashima" wrote in
: One thing I've been meaning to ask you, is how did you become interested in fly-fishing? Been fishing since around the age of five. Fly fishing started when dad took me and my brother to Connetquot on Long Island. There was a long hiatus through high school to grad school, and then I picked it up big during a post doc. -- Scott Reverse name to reply |
Turning a fish upside down
"Wolfgang" wrote in message ... "Tom Nakashima" wrote in message ... "Wolfgang" wrote in message ... "Scott Seidman" wrote in message . 1.4... "Wolfgang" wrote in news:5s5npoF16gia9U1 @mid.individual.net: the kinesthetic sense is also crucially important. You've been reading too much Mittelsteadt (sp?). Never heard of her/him. By the way, I don't know what the "otolith organs" in fish are, but I'll assume they are analogous to the vestibular maculae (the utricle and the saccule) in humans. If so, their function is the perception of linear acceleration and thus buoyancy and gravity, in and of themselves, would have nothing whatsoever to do with a fish getting confused by being upside down...... Wolfgang Otoliths are better known as earstones. They are calcium carbonate structures which are located behind the brain of bony fish. They are used to aid fish in balance and hearing in the same way the inner ear provides balance in humans. The three otoliths a Sagitta - which is the largest of the 3-pairs and are used for the detection of sound and converting sound waves into electrical signals. Asteriscus - which is the detection of sound and the process of hearing. Lapillus - which detects the gravitational forces and sound. Catfish have no problem swimming upside down or loss of equilibrium. Studies have found it is the swim bladder that maintains the upside-down swimming position, and postural control in catfish. Ah. I see. Thanks for clearing that up for us. Wolfgang Thanks for the seafood jambalaya recipe. I was telling my wife about it yesterday evening, and she asked, is this the same person who gave you the giblet gravy recipe? She really enjoyed it. She said; "I didn't think fly-fisherman could cook!" Zatarain's Creole seasoning blend? -tom |
Turning a fish upside down
"Scott Seidman" wrote in message . 1.4... "Tom Nakashima" wrote in : One thing I've been meaning to ask you, is how did you become interested in fly-fishing? Been fishing since around the age of five. Fly fishing started when dad took me and my brother to Connetquot on Long Island. There was a long hiatus through high school to grad school, and then I picked it up big during a post doc. -- Scott Reverse name to reply Thanks, I only know of one other Dr. Fly-Fisherman, amazing how you two parallel... he's a Physicist and highly respectable. -tom |
Turning a fish upside down
"Scott Seidman" wrote in message . 1.4... "Wolfgang" wrote in : If so, their function is the perception of linear acceleration and thus buoyancy and gravity, in and of themselves, would have nothing whatsoever to do with a fish getting confused by being upside down......it is movement, and not position, that they respond to. And the semicircular canals are simply vessels filled with a fluid whose inertia causes it to move relative to the stereocilia on hair cells in the epithelium of cristae ampullaris to detect angular acceleration. Thus, it is accurate but misleading to state that "the semicircular canals have no problem." In any case, once again, these vestibular endorgans detect motion, not position. If one looks very closely at the semicircular canals, the input to the biophysical model is of course angular acceleration, but because of the large radius of the canal as compared to the small radius of the lumen, a physical integration takes place, and the cupular displacement is most correlated with angular velocity. This is one of my favorite stories-- to bring it back to fish, this was first laid out by Steinhausen, Uber die Beobachtung der Cupula in den Bogengangsampullen des Labyrinths des lebenden Hechts, Pflugers Arch Ges Physiol 232(1933), (excuse the absence of diacriticals, please) in which he injected the cupula of the pike with india ink and measured its deflection during angular motion, modeling the system as a simple torsion pendulum. To this day, the equations are called the Steinhausen equations. The otolith organs (correctly identified as the sacculus and utricle) respond to linear accelerations, and as Einstein correctly pointed out, gravity is just a plain old linear acceleration (Einstein, The graviational equations and the problem of motion, Annals Mathematics, 1938). Thus, the otoliths detect, rather exquisitely, reorientations of the head with respect to gravity-- a la position, and at DC (i.e., constant). This is confirmable not only by the biophysics (Melvill-Jones, Biophysics of the Peripheral End Organs, in Wilson and Melvill-Jones, Mammalian Vestibular Physiology, Plenum, 1979), but right down to single-neuron recordings of eight nerve activity (Fernandez and Goldberg, J. Neurophysiol 39(1976) ). Of course, this creates an interesting story, in that the brain must make a decision about whether the head is undergoing a translational acceleration or a reorientation with respect to gravity when otolith activity is detected, and just how the brain does this is still a matter of debate. Part of the debate involves whether the canals are being used to help track tilt or not, but it turns out that the canals are not anywhere near the whole story. Yeah. That's a pretty good synopsis of what I said. As luck would have it, I've spent a significant portion of my life knee deep in this debate. I think the first two here might just be reachable without subscriptions, but I'm not real sure. http://www.springerlink.com/content/...07661j7714/?p= 22aa7e9ac5804d34a83bcd5fddd5388a&pi=5 http://jn.physiology.org/cgi/content...oshow=&HITS=10 &hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&author1=au+yong&searchid=1& FIRSTINDEX=0 &sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=HWCIT http://www.springerlink.com/content/...myd35f8bky/?p= 22aa7e9ac5804d34a83bcd5fddd5388a&pi=4 Interesting stuff. But I fail to see how any of it informs the present discussion. For example, none of it does much to support your contention that "the otolith organs get confused because there is a bouyancy in addition to gravity." Leaving aside the quaint notion that organs get confused (though I think this raises all kinds of fascinating hermeneutic issues that might be fun to explore someday) the sources you link to above suggest that, as has already been stated here, various other systems and cues come into play. Moreover, none of it appears to bear at all on (much less settle) the question of why a fish held in what is questionably presumed to be an unusual position remains quiescent, which, in any event, is only sometimes the case. Wolfgang who, while perhaps not knee deep, has gotten his feet wet a time or two. p.s. you say sacculus, i say saccule. i'm content to leave a comprehensive search of the literature and an accurate accounting as an exercise for all the fascinated readers. |
Turning a fish upside down
"Tom Nakashima" wrote in message ... Thanks for the seafood jambalaya recipe. You're welcome. I was telling my wife about it yesterday evening, and she asked, is this the same person who gave you the giblet gravy recipe? She really enjoyed it. She said; "I didn't think fly-fisherman could cook!" Lots of good recipes he http://tinyurl.com/2e6gu9 Zatarain's Creole seasoning blend? Um......not sure I understand the question. Wolfgang |
Turning a fish upside down
"Wolfgang" wrote in message ... "Tom Nakashima" wrote in message ... Thanks for the seafood jambalaya recipe. You're welcome. I was telling my wife about it yesterday evening, and she asked, is this the same person who gave you the giblet gravy recipe? She really enjoyed it. She said; "I didn't think fly-fisherman could cook!" Lots of good recipes he http://tinyurl.com/2e6gu9 Zatarain's Creole seasoning blend? Um......not sure I understand the question. Wolfgang You wrote: Here's what I did: 1 large (very) clove garlic, finely minced 1 medium onion, diced fairly fine 1 large green bell pepper, coarsely diced 1 lb. shrimp (These happened to be pre-cooked tails with a bit of the shell left on. Shrimp in any form, whole, pieces, shells on or off, will work. More flavorful if used with the shells on, but messier to eat.) 1/2 lb. crayfish (These were precooked whole with seasoning. Ditto observations above for shrimp) 1/2 lb andouille (Johnsonville or some such crap......all I could find on the spur of the moment) cut into quarter inch rounds. 1/2 lb. smoked pork shoulder (had this on hand and needed to use it up before it spoiled.....this is what started the whole project.) cut into half inch cubes. two medium catfish fillets (1/2 lb. ?) cut into chunks two 15 oz. cans diced tomatoes (these had green chilis in them) 3 cups lobster stock (prepared as per instructions on jar) 2 cups Uncle Ben's converted rice (Chef Jake insisted on the converted rice.....said it will prevent the jambalaya from becoming a glutinous solid mass) 3 cups pre-cooked red beans. Zatarain's Creole seasoning blend to taste. I suppose I probably used about 3 tablespoons. I didn't understand the Zatarain's Creole seasoning blend? Your last sentence in the above. -tom |
Turning a fish upside down
"Wolfgang" wrote in
: For example, none of it does much to support your contention that "the otolith organs get confused because there is a bouyancy in addition to gravity." Leaving aside the quaint notion that organs get confused (though I think this raises all kinds of fascinating hermeneutic issues that might be fun to explore someday) the sources you link to above suggest that, as has already been stated here, various other systems and cues come into play. Thats a little bit more of a jump, but I do have some evidence to support it. I can't pull this stuff of the tips of my fingers like the last stuff, but it is buried in the literature. There's a whole slew of space data, with a variety of interpretations. The bottom line is that when we remove our 1-g operating point, the system gets very confused. What does "confused" mean? That's a little hard to pin down. Certainly, about half the astronauts and cosmonauts hurl violently for the first few days of micro-g. Typically, space flight papers are just nasty low-n POS's with incredibly large variability in methods and results, but there are some real stars out there (so to speak!!). Perhaps the paper that best attempts to quantify this stuff is Clement et al, Exp Brain Res 138(2001)-- a group I know for about 15 years and trust very much. Abstract: During the 1998 Neurolab mission (STS-90), four astronauts were exposed to interaural and head vertical (dorsoventral) linear accelerations of 0.5 g and 1 g during constant velocity rotation on a centrifuge, both on Earth and during orbital space flight. Subjects were oriented either left-ear-out or right-ear-out (Gy centrifugation), or lay supine along the centrifuge arm with their head off-axis (Gz centrifugation). Pre- flight centrifugation, producing linear accelerations of 0.5 g and 1 g along the Gy (interaural) axis, induced illusions of roll-tilt of 20 degrees and 34 degrees for gravito-inertial acceleration (GIA) vector tilts of 27 degrees and 45 degrees , respectively. Pre-flight 0.5 g and 1 g Gz (head dorsoventral) centrifugation generated perceptions of backward pitch of 5 degrees and 15 degrees , respectively. In the absence of gravity during space flight, the same centrifugation generated a GIA that was equivalent to the centripetal acceleration and aligned with the Gy or Gz axes. Perception of tilt was underestimated relative to this new GIA orientation during early in-flight Gy centrifugation, but was close to the GIA after 16 days in orbit, when subjects reported that they felt as if they were 'lying on side'. During the course of the mission, inflight roll-tilt perception during Gy centrifugation increased from 45 degrees to 83 degrees at 1 g and from 42 degrees to 48 degrees at 0.5 g. Subjects felt 'upside-down' during in-flight Gz centrifugation from the first in- flight test session, which reflected the new GIA orientation along the head dorsoventral axis. The different levels of in-flight tilt perception during 0.5 g and 1 g Gy centrifugation suggests that other non-vestibular inputs, including an internal estimate of the body vertical and somatic sensation, were utilized in generating tilt perception. Interpretation of data by a weighted sum of body vertical and somatic vectors, with an estimate of the GIA from the otoliths, suggests that perception weights the sense of the body vertical more heavily early in-flight, that this weighting falls during adaptation to microgravity, and that the decreased reliance on the body vertical persists early post-flight, generating an exaggerated sense of tilt. Since graviceptors respond to linear acceleration and not to head tilt in orbit, it has been proposed that adaptation to weightlessness entails reinterpretation of otolith activity, causing tilt to be perceived as translation. Since linear acceleration during in-flight centrifugation was always perceived as tilt, not translation, the findings do not support this hypothesis **** I have a bundle of VOR and perception data that seem to suggest that the brain takes liberties, and assumes a 1-g downward acceleration at all times, and that way instead of taking the time doing the geometry on the multi-dimensional otolith responses, the brain need only deal with those bits of acceleration that are orthogonal to gravity, and gets it right most of the time. This is stuff I haven't written on yet, but it certainly goes along with some of the details of the Clement paper. I've spent quite some time chatting with this with one of the authors, and I think we're on the same page. Of course, just because humans and monkeys get confused when you change their gravitational setpoint with micro-g doesn't necessarily mean that adding a bouyant component causes similar outcomes. Frankly, the monkeys keep drowning (just kidding, PETA guys!), but NASA does train their astronauts underwater, and some of the early orientation papers (a la Graybiel) put the body underwater. That's a bit of a jump on my part. Also, none of this means that fish get screwed up when you remove their bouyancy. They certainly flop around a good deal when you take them out of the water and don't put them upside down, which is what pushes me toward the funny paralytic-like state that can cause not being of an octavolateralis origin. -- Scott Reverse name to reply |
Turning a fish upside down
"Wolfgang" wrote in
: Leaving aside the quaint notion that organs get confused (though I think this raises all kinds of fascinating hermeneutic issues that might be fun to explore someday) the sources you link to above suggest that, as has already been stated here, various other systems and cues come into play. And to directly answer that, most definetely correct. The extent of just what cues and systems come into play really surprises people-- the two later papers I posted show that noise and vibration are interpreted as cues of motion, even when its not appropriate, and that's a whole bunch more kinaesthesia than even Mittealstaedt would have guessed. By the way, he proposed that the kidneys could serve as a great graviceptor. -- Scott Reverse name to reply |
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