Long tapered leaders
 

Has anyone had success turning over flies with long tapered
leaders?
Currently I'm using 4x 9' knotless tapered leaders with 18"
5x tippet material and been having good success turning over
18-16 size flies. I'm now planning to try 12' leaders with an 18"
5x tippet material. I'm thinking however the leaders don't
necessarily have to be knotless.
Any good formulas for 12' leaders for delicate presentation?
Keep in mind I do want to use 18" tippet material.
thanks,
-tom

Long tapered leaders
 

On Fri, 8 Feb 2008 13:05:33 -0800, "Tom Nakashima"
wrote:

Currently I'm using 4x 9' knotless tapered leaders with 18"
5x tippet material and been having good success turning over
18-16 size flies. I'm now planning to try 12' leaders with an 18"
5x tippet material.

Why do you want to go to 12' leaders, Tom.

Long tapered leaders
 

Tom Nakashima wrote:
Has anyone had success turning over flies with long tapered
leaders?
Currently I'm using 4x 9' knotless tapered leaders with 18"
5x tippet material and been having good success turning over
18-16 size flies. I'm now planning to try 12' leaders with an 18"
5x tippet material. I'm thinking however the leaders don't
necessarily have to be knotless.
Any good formulas for 12' leaders for delicate presentation?
Keep in mind I do want to use 18" tippet material.
thanks,
-tom



I don't like using a leader that's much longer than my rod, or at least
not longer than I can stow by wrapping it around the reel, with the fly
hooked into a convenient guide. I don't want the line/leader connection
to get past the tip guide.

In rare spring-creek conditions it might be necessary, but not usually.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

Long tapered leaders
 

"Tom Nakashima" wrote

Any good formulas for 12' leaders for delicate presentation?


Add more BUTT to the 9 footer you like, don't change the taper or tippet
( there is a slight chance that you will need to make the added butt
stiffer, too )

Long tapered leaders
 

"Dave LaCourse" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 8 Feb 2008 13:05:33 -0800, "Tom Nakashima"
wrote:

Currently I'm using 4x 9' knotless tapered leaders with 18"
5x tippet material and been having good success turning over
18-16 size flies. I'm now planning to try 12' leaders with an 18"
5x tippet material.

Why do you want to go to 12' leaders, Tom.

Yes,
I've been asked that many times. I can throw 9' leaders with a nice
turnover of the fly, and now I would like to try 12' leaders. For one,
see if I can turn over a #16 fly at 12' 18", and if I ever needed to do
so to leader shy trout.
I have a feeling you're going to tell me, that would never be the case.
-tom

Long tapered leaders
 

"rw" wrote



In rare spring-creek conditions it might be necessary, but not usually.



My 'typical' spring creek leader is about 10 foot including tippet ....
sometimes I go to 7 foot or less, to get back into undercut banks and
overhanging grass ..... the only time I go longer is if it is impossible
to cast from any place except directly down stream and conditions favor
'spooky' fish ( bright sun ) .... then I cut off the taper of my standard
leader, blood knot a new one onto the long BUTT left behind, put down the
fish in question anyway, then revert back to a standard leader by cutting
off and saving the 'new leader' and re-tying on the reserved 'old leader'
..... and move on G


P.S. I never buy a bright colored fly line for spring creek use ... if
your line is fluorescent orange you may need an extra long leader to
overcome that handicap

Long tapered leaders
 

"rw" wrote in message
m...
Tom Nakashima wrote:
Has anyone had success turning over flies with long tapered
leaders?
Currently I'm using 4x 9' knotless tapered leaders with 18"
5x tippet material and been having good success turning over
18-16 size flies. I'm now planning to try 12' leaders with an 18"
5x tippet material. I'm thinking however the leaders don't
necessarily have to be knotless.
Any good formulas for 12' leaders for delicate presentation?
Keep in mind I do want to use 18" tippet material.
thanks,
-tom



I don't like using a leader that's much longer than my rod, or at least
not longer than I can stow by wrapping it around the reel, with the fly
hooked into a convenient guide. I don't want the line/leader connection to
get past the tip guide.

In rare spring-creek conditions it might be necessary, but not usually.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

Yes, I have read the same about the leader not much longer than the rod.
I'm currently throwing the 9' leaders 18" tippet with an 8' bamboo fly-rod.
-tom

Long tapered leaders
 

"Tom Nakashima" wrote in message
...

"Dave LaCourse" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 8 Feb 2008 13:05:33 -0800, "Tom Nakashima"
wrote:

Currently I'm using 4x 9' knotless tapered leaders with 18"
5x tippet material and been having good success turning over
18-16 size flies. I'm now planning to try 12' leaders with an 18"
5x tippet material.

Why do you want to go to 12' leaders, Tom.

Yes,
I've been asked that many times. I can throw 9' leaders with a nice
turnover of the fly, and now I would like to try 12' leaders. For one,
see if I can turn over a #16 fly at 12' 18", and if I ever needed to do
so to leader shy trout.
I have a feeling you're going to tell me, that would never be the case.
-tom


Now tom, be honest....it has nothing to do with shy trout....you just want
to fish with a longer leader!

good luck!

john

Long tapered leaders
 

"Tom Nakashima" wrote

Any good formulas for 12' leaders for delicate presentation?



Tom,

I just remembered that RIO makes a very nice 15 foot ( I think, maybe 16 )
leader they market as "Spring Creek" .... I've used it on Hebgen ( tougher
conditions than most on spring creeks ) and it handles very nicely straight
from the package ...

Long tapered leaders
 

On Fri, 8 Feb 2008 13:52:53 -0800, "Tom Nakashima"
wrote:

I have a feeling you're going to tell me, that would never be the case.

G

No, you will surely run into leader shy fish. I just don't think you
will need a 12 foot leader for them, however. I'll get flamed for
saying this, but a 7 1/2 foot 5x leader with 18 inches of 6x
fluorocarbon tippet would work just as well. Or even a 6x leader with
7x FC. FC sinks, true enough, but I have had no trouble floating
small flies with it, and because it does sink I think that is a
positive thing. Some will say that FC is too stiff to turn over a
fly, but I have never had that trouble.

Dave

Long tapered leaders
 

In article , Dave LaCourse
wrote:


Why do you want to go to 12' leaders, Tom.


On the one hand I think that this is the crucial question. there's a
pressure on us to fish longer leaders, or to cast longer lines, as
thought the whole business was some sort of competition. (which, imho,
it should be with the fish, but not with other people).

But the truth is often that the best line to cast is somewhere around
ten yards, and the best length of leader is often around nine feet.

On the other hand, I rarely actually measure my leader. I start with a
tapered cast one size above the tippet size I'm going to be using
(normally 3 lb), tie on a few feet of tippet, and when that's wrecked I
keep cutting and tying until the whole rig is clearly useless and I
have to start again.

I imagine that is roughly what a lot of us do.

On the other hand, I quite frequently find that I'm fishing a twelve or
fourteen foot cast ** not because I believe in it for any a priori
reason, but simply because it fishes better on the waters I'm on.

A lot of the time I'm on glassy, gin-clear chalk streams (spring
creeks) - in particular the Itchen, in Hampshire, england.

There, the one thing that will spell disaster is drag.

So what I'm actually seeking to do is have my tippet fall in a bit of a
bedraggle, that may unwind itself on the surface of the stream and give
just a few seconds for my fly to drift without drag over the lie where
my fish is feeding.

thus twelve to fourteen feet may give me a poor-looking cast, but may
also catch me a fish.

Lazarus

Long tapered leaders
 

"Tom Nakashima" wrote in message
...
Has anyone had success turning over flies with long tapered
leaders?
Currently I'm using 4x 9' knotless tapered leaders with 18"
5x tippet material and been having good success turning over
18-16 size flies. I'm now planning to try 12' leaders with an 18"
5x tippet material. I'm thinking however the leaders don't
necessarily have to be knotless.
Any good formulas for 12' leaders for delicate presentation?
Keep in mind I do want to use 18" tippet material.
thanks,
-tom



Tom:

More of a lurker than a regular here, but I think you have two good answers.
LarryL says to add to the butt of your 9' leader. I regularly fish leaders
of 12' and this is very good advice.

Hand tied leaders turn over much better than tapered (knots act as power
transmitters), so start with 3' of big stuff, go to 12" of the next size
down, then go down in 6" increments until you get to the section just above
the tippet. Use 12-16" there, just so you won't have to change it so often
as you lose little bits changing tippets. A simple fix it to add 3' of the
next diameter of line above what you are using to the butt of your leader.

Lazarus says that the reason to fish longer leaders is to create a "clump"
of tippet to defeat drag. This is the real reason to fish longer leaders.
If you do not have to deal with complex drag patterns, go as short as you
can. If you do have to deal with these situations, go long, realizing that
it may not look pretty but it will work. BTW, make sure to cast far enough
upstream to let the "kinks" in the "clump" of the leader to work itself out
before passing over the strike area.

Tight lines,

Patrick

Long tapered leaders
 

In article , PRM
wrote:

If you do have to deal with these situations, go long, realizing that
it may not look pretty but it will work. BTW, make sure to cast far enough
upstream to let the "kinks" in the "clump" of the leader to work itself out
before passing over the strike area.

Many years ago I had casting lessons from the Hardy professional, Andy
Murray. One of the things he taught me for dryfly upstream casting on
glassy water is to give your rod a good sideways wiggle as the line is
flying out. If you get the timing right on this it will lay your tippet
in a zig-zag pattern that will straighten as the stream pulls at it,
but will leave the fly un-dragged.

Lazarus

Long tapered leaders
 

"Lazarus Cooke" wrote


Many years ago I had casting lessons from the Hardy professional, Andy
Murray. One of the things he taught me for dryfly upstream casting on
glassy water is to give your rod a good sideways wiggle as the line is
flying out. If you get the timing right on this it will lay your tippet
in a zig-zag pattern that will straighten as the stream pulls at it,
but will leave the fly un-dragged.



casting slack ... in the wiggle cast you mention, or various pile casts ...
is a key to difficult dry fly waters ( ones with complex currents over weeds
and such )



The ability to pile up the tippet to absorb some 'drag' greatly increases
success on some waters but like all this stuff we must practice ... try to
put the fly on the pie plate in the yard with lots of tippet slack .. then
without same. Add learning to throw curves around obstacles part way to
the plate and/ or at the end. It's possible to throw slack into the
middle of the line with the leader still turning over well also etc.

One cast I learned a few years back is useful if emerging weeds are between
you and the fish, but he is just inches on the other side. The weeds keep
the line/ leader from flowing downstream and if you cast normally ( turned
over leader ) drag is instant. Try forcing a cast HARD and fast right into
the weeds ... they will absorb the force keeping the 'spat' from scaring our
prey and the end of the tippet will travel a little farther, coming down
well after the line ( remember you cast like you were trying to bury the
line ) in a nasty pile just past the weeds ... viola, fish on ( learned this
on Hot Creek where such weeds are common and wading to get a better angle,
highly frowned upon )

This slack where it helps stuff is partly leader construction, but mainly
just 'bad casting' ... on purpose

Long tapered leaders
 

On Feb 8, 6:07*pm, Lazarus Cooke
wrote:

[little snip]

On the other hand, I quite frequently find that I'm fishing a twelve or
fourteen foot cast ** not because I believe in it for any a priori
reason, but simply because it fishes better on the waters I'm on.

A lot of the time I'm on glassy, gin-clear chalk streams (spring
creeks) - in particular the Itchen, in Hampshire, england.

There, the one thing that will spell disaster is drag.

So what I'm actually seeking to do is have my tippet fall in a bit of a
bedraggle, that may unwind itself on the surface of the stream and give
just a few seconds for my fly to drift without drag over the lie where
my fish is feeding.

thus twelve to fourteen feet may give me a poor-looking cast, but may
also catch me a fish.

This thread has been interesting for me. The fish in my home
waters (mostly Guadalupe bass and sunfish) aren't particularly leader-
shy, so I'm usually more concerned with simply getting a leader to
turn the fly over.

When I visited western NC and the Smokies, I found that using a
short leader (less than rod length) worked best for dealing with the
overgrowth and tight quarters. When I met up with Wolfgang on an open
stretch of the Little River, he handed me a rod with about a 12'
leader (is that right, Wolfgang?) and told me to give that a try.

To my eyes, my casts looked horrible; the leader landed in a pile
each time. But, the fish seemed more than happy to jump all over the
fly. Due to the slack, I missed some fish (and even had one fish that
I had "missed" somehow wind up on the end of my line after I finally
got all the slack in). But I had better luck when I followed
Wolfgang's advice and lengthened the leader on my own rig and stopped
worrying about how "pretty" my casts were.

I still struggle when I've got a leader much longer than the rod,
but I've been playing around with it more ever since that trip, and
when conditions permit, I'll definitely fish a longer leader.


Chuck Vance (now if I could just learn to throw slack line on
purpose)

Long tapered leaders
 

"Conan The Librarian" wrote


Chuck Vance (now if I could just learn to throw slack line on
purpose)


MY advice ( remember I concentrate on flat waters and 'tough' fish .. slack
casts are a hindrance in many situations, thus the mantra of 'turn over your
fly' ) is to start with a leader you like for the fly being cast ... I
won't detail what I usually use, except to say that a tippet ring is a
great help as it allows you to keep most of the leader uniform for weeks and
only change tippet size and length to suit the fly. Your furled leaders
should be fine, tweaked to a given fly.

This basic leader should, with YOUR casting stroke, 'turn over' the fly
involved when you cast a straight line ... only a little wiggle should be
in the leader at most.
Now throw some paper plates around your practice yard and try to hit them
with your fly ( gently :-) ... the fly may hop out of the hard plate but
it's the original landing that matters. After you hit one at mid
distance a few time, using exactly the same amount of line, try to land the
fly in a plate a foot or two closer to you.

Try aiming a little higher and using slightly less power, lower the rod as
the line falls .. viola, slack .... wiggle the rod tip as the line unfolds
.... slack .... try what would be a tuck cast if you were using a weighted
nymph .. put some plates between you and the target plate and try to snake
the line between them by flicking the rod tip to put bends into the line
..... cast your normal stroke and just as the line goes straight, pull back
slightly All these things ( and more ) will put slack into the line/
leader in different ways. First step it to observe the differences,
second is to start controling slack by the stoke you make.

Now the hard, ( and extremely fun ) part ... when you are on the stream look
before you cast ...decide IF and if so, WHERE slack is needed to fight drag,
BEFORE you cast. Your practice will provide strong clues as to how to
achieve what you need. Note: do not cast slack 'just because' have a
target and reason for that slack or cast normally ... most times, fishing
upstream in a freestone you probably won't cast slack ... much .. indeed
your task is to gather it up quickly as the fly comes back to you

If I could force my aging, habit ridden, and somewhat sluggish brain to do
one thing while fishing it would be to ... each and every single time ...
try and make my FIRST effort my BEST effort ... most anglers ( me too ) fail
in the places that have the reputation as difficult because they cast, see
that it didn't work, and maybe why, and THEN try harder ... respect your
prey more than that ... plan where the line, leader and fly will land ...
not just the fly ...


Tip: You do your best, chuck ( no pun ) it out there and put the fish down
anyway .... stay and recast until you master that lie even though he is long
gone ... you need the practice G

Long tapered leaders
 

"Larry L" wrote

Tip: snip


another one ... you can often practice a cast before making it to great
advantage

visualize what the line, leader and fly will look like as they land

Now staying a couple feet too far away make the cast short of the fish until
you get it to look like that visualization ( note it may not drift right
becasue you are actually casting to a differnt part of the stream ) Now
make that extra step towards you prey and repeat that difficult combination
of curve, mend and pile ... smile widely when it works G

http://tinyurl.com/2orw9d

Long tapered leaders
 

On the other hand, I quite frequently find that I'm fishing a twelve or
fourteen foot cast ** not because I believe in it for any a priori
reason, but simply because it fishes better on the waters I'm on.

A lot of the time I'm on glassy, gin-clear chalk streams (spring
creeks) - in particular the Itchen, in Hampshire, england.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

ok dude,

you just seriously piqued my interest with the Itchen thing. My last
name is Graves and so this is in my blood, otherwise, I wouldn't bother
with this post. I have a fascination with the spring creeks on occasion.
(Letort spring run, etc.) I frequent the Catskills mostly, and this
formula works great on the snooty fish there.

I actually had an invite to fish the Itchen once, but couldn't scrape
up the cash for airfare. Someday though....

I have tried the Orvis bradied leaders, they used to work very well,
They were popular in the 1980's. And they worked great, esp. in small
sizes to 7x, but they are a hassle to tie. The interval sections were
only 7", and if you messed this up, your accuracy suffered greatly. The
formula below is very mellow and forgiving.

this is George Harvey formula, from Pennsylvania USA. This guy is
(was?) an interesting fellow, teaches flyfishing at a State college.
The legendary Spring Creek runs through the campus. This leader
formula works really well, you can do an incredible "pile cast" with
it, and get oodles of slack. It has a 36" tippet!!!!! In the words of
legendary Michael Palin: "say no more!!!"

The downside is; you must use Maxima for the butt sections which is a
wonderfully limp material, not as strong compared to the new stuff,
but again, you only use it for the butt sections, you use the good
modern (clear) stuff for the tippet.

I use Orvis Super Strong for the tippet section. Never fails. *You do
have to learn how to properly join two sections of different
stiffnesses of materials together, which can be tricky.

Lately though, I've thought that maybe a surgeon's knot might work
better than a blood knot to join the stiffer tippet to the butt. The
interesting thing about this leader is the fact that the overall taper
is very gradual, as opposed to the standard thinking that you need a
very stiff, rapidly, descending butt section.

BTW, a compound leader will always turn over better than a one-piece,
but with a one-piece, you won't have the weedball problem on the knots.
I know this may be a common problem in spring creeks.

Contact Fly Fisherman Magazine (USA) for info on this article, it came
out maybe 8 years ago. maybe longer, can't remember...

Here's the formula. I swear this lays out the best I've ever seen, for
small stuff with no wind..... In the lenght you are looking for, this
will fit the bill.

Tight Lines, Tally Ho, etc.

George Harvey Leader formula:

4X 5X

.015--- 18-19" (MAX.) .015----- 18-19" (MAX.)
.013-----18" .013----- 18-19"
.011-----18" .011----- 18-19"
.009-----18" .009----- 18-19"
3X-------15"
3X-------15"
4X-------36" (!!!!!) (S.S.) 4X-------15"

5X-------36" (SS)
(!!!!!!)


Sir, your problems are now solved. you could probably go all the way
to 7x by continuing the 5x formula, but I would shorten the 6x interval
section to maybe 10-12" . S.S. stands for the final "Super Strong"
section, but use whatever tippet material you want. Again, just be
careful tying that last tippet joiner knot. You'll see what I mean....


--
rustyspinner
------------------------------------------------------------------------
rustyspinner's Profile: http://www.njflyfishing.com/vBulleti...php?userid=641
View this thread: http://www.njflyfishing.com/vBulleti...ad.php?t=13829


----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

Long tapered leaders
 

ugh, can't fugure out how to edit my post. Tom, try the above also. The
formula for the 5x to the right got moved too far left for the tippet.

5X:

015.... 18-19" (maxima)
013-----18-19" (maxima)
044-----18-19" (maxima)
009-----18-19" (maxima)
4X-------15" (super strong or whatever)
5X-------36" (super strong or whatever)

You can go to 6X by cutting down the 5X to 12"
You can go to 7X by cutting down the above 6X to 10-12"

Hope that helps to clarify. The 4X formula is fairly readable. Just
follow it down.


--
rustyspinner
------------------------------------------------------------------------
rustyspinner's Profile: http://www.njflyfishing.com/vBulleti...php?userid=641
View this thread: http://www.njflyfishing.com/vBulleti...ad.php?t=13829


----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

Long tapered leaders
 

rustyspinner wrote:
ugh, can't fugure out how to edit my post. Tom, try the above also. The
formula for the 5x to the right got moved too far left for the tippet.

5X:

.015.... 18-19" (maxima)
.013-----18-19" (maxima)
.044-----18-19" (maxima)
.009-----18-19" (maxima)
4X-------15" (super strong or whatever)
5X-------36" (super strong or whatever)

You can go to 6X by cutting down the 5X to 12"
You can go to 7X by cutting down the above 6X to 10-12"

Hope that helps to clarify. The 4X formula is fairly readable. Just
follow it down.



Man, you guys are really uptight about your leaders.

Was it you that wrote that knotted leaders turn over better than
knotless because the knots are "power transmitters," or something like that?

That's absurd. It's not physical. Makes no sense at all.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

Long tapered leaders
 

Steve a écrit :

Have you tried this?
http://globalflyfisher.com/fishbette...c/download.php



Quite interesting, thanks for sharing.

--
Hope to read you soon,

Denis
www.uqtr.ca/~lamyd

You'll have to eat the SPAM to E-mail

Long tapered leaders
 

Man, you guys are really uptight about your leaders.

Was it you that wrote that knotted leaders turn over better than
knotless because the knots are "power transmitters," or something like
that?

That's absurd. It's not physical. Makes no sense at all.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I have tried the knotless many times for dry flies and have always
found a well tied, compound leader to be more accurate. It has to do
with the energy transfer of a larger diameter section producing
sufficient force to carry into the next section, which can also be of a
softer grade. It has nothing to do with the knots.

I know it doesn't seem to make sense, but it does. It's the same thing
as a "Garrison" (compound) tapered bamboo fly rod being more efficient
and accurate than a "single" taper.

Another reason I posted this formula was because this leader has a 36"
tippet, which will cause far less surface drag than the more standard
18" tippet. There is also drag that the fisherman cannot see, but the
fish can. This is sometimes termed "micro-drag," and often causes
refusals.

I still use the knotless for nymphs, and use a shorter leader for that,
usually 7 to 9 foot. I'll even use 'em for a large bushy fly on a small
creek, no big deal.

But that's a different presentation entirely than the more "technical"
fishing, with oftentimes a tiny dry fly on complex, gin-clear braided
currents, like on a Limestoner.

This formula was also developed by an old-timer who specialized in
limestone creeks.


--
rustyspinner
------------------------------------------------------------------------
rustyspinner's Profile: http://www.njflyfishing.com/vBulleti...php?userid=641
View this thread: http://www.njflyfishing.com/vBulleti...ad.php?t=13829


----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

Long tapered leaders
 

rustyspinner wrote:
Man, you guys are really uptight about your leaders.

Was it you that wrote that knotted leaders turn over better than
knotless because the knots are "power transmitters," or something like
that?

That's absurd. It's not physical. Makes no sense at all.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I have tried the knotless many times for dry flies and have always
found a well tied, compound leader to be more accurate. It has to do
with the energy transfer of a larger diameter section producing
sufficient force to carry into the next section, which can also be of a
softer grade. It has nothing to do with the knots.

OK, an advantage in having a transition to a softer-grade section is at
least plausible.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

Long tapered leaders
 

"rw" wrote


OK, an advantage in having a transition to a softer-grade section is at
least plausible.



For the nearly nothing it's worth, I've given "Harvey Style" knotted leaders
serious testing over the years.

They are very nice casting ( dry fly 'techy water' ) but I've given up on
them. The bad side effects of all those knots outweighs the slightly
better casting ... for me ... the worst bad effects revolve mainly around
knots picking up weed ( always a problem after early season in fertile
creeks, sometimes THE problem on HFork with its heavy growths combined with
varying, dam controlled flows )


IMHO, anybody with a serious interest in fishing dry flies to very picky
fish should give a leader with a thin butt, long taper and long tippet (
basic idea of the Harvey leader ) a solid try, if only to make an educated
decision to not use them. Historically they are what is considered best
for this type of angling.


My current leader choice for, say, Silver Creek .... starts as a RIO 7.5'
3X .... I mike it and cut it off about half the 3X I tie a tippet
ring to the 3X and add tippet to suit the day. Anything from 3X to
6X works ok tied directly to the ring ( with appropriate fly ) ... 7X works
best if you make a compound tippet 5 then 7X .... my 'average' tippet is
going to run very nearly 3 feet and thus the leader is about 9 to 10.5 feet
as fished ( always balance tippet to the fly being used with some test casts
.... if you can't turn over the fly well when trying to, thicker or shorter,
..... if a gentle effort to pile slack straightens out anyway .. thinner or
longer )


I DO use a knotted leader ( a special formula very diiferent than
Harveys ) .. to use with there is high wind ( and not on my 4wt rod that I
use most often ) ... and my 'nymphing only' 6wt has a knotted leader I got
from a Borger book hat lobs lead and bobber well but still has a thin tippet
for fast sinking


On the waters I most enjoy I consider the leader and the line to be the most
important tackle items ... I don't need a fancy rod, but I feel severely
handicapped with a poor choice in either of those ( and almost always
pattern is more important than 'presentation school' anglers are willing to
believe :-)

Long tapered leaders
 

"Larry L" wrote


My current leader choice for, say, Silver Creek .... starts as a RIO
7.5' 3X ....




Above for 'average' flies over normal size range


If it was trico time I'd start with a RIO 9ft 7X ... cut it back to 4X, add
ring, and go from there .... this gives a thinner butt and longer finished
leader that works better ... for me ... when the fish are at their most
hammered, and, thus, often, most picky best

Long tapered leaders
 

"rw" wrote in message
m...
OK, an advantage in having a transition to a softer-grade section is at
least plausible.

for whatever reason, the Harvey design works, and works well. One advantage,
not noted, was that one seldom needs drop below 6x, even for Tricos and the
like. This leader design will present dries with a series of gentle curves
in the tippet section only, and one needn't resort to 7x, 8x tippets to fool
very wary trout in clear water.
Tom

Long tapered leaders
 

Thanks for all the repost.
-tom

Long tapered leaders
 

"Larry L" wrote

, thus the mantra of 'turn over your
fly' )


I woke up this morning thinking that maybe some lurker out there might get
the wrong idea from my comments in this thread.

The phrases I use like "pile of slack" never imply the fly isn't 'turned
over' ... in other words, the fly should always land farther from the
angler than any of the leader ... if the leader bends back on itself and the
fly is closer than that bend, less tippet or thicker tippet is called for
( with that fly )


In 'slack casts' the line and/ or leader fall in wiggles, and bends like a
meadow stream often runs its course. The very worthwhile goal I'm
advocating here is to practice and learn to control the position and amount
of that wiggle and those bends. Like controlling loop size there is a big
advantage in being able to lay out a very straight line and leader, one very
wiggly , or many steps in between, at will, and with full understanding of
the why and where of each.

As I said differently elsewhere in this tread ... start with a leader you
can lay down very nearly straight ( with the fly in use ) with a 'text book'
cast and then learn to cast poorly, on demand, for adding and controlling
the wiggle when you want it. Do not depend on the leader to produce the
wiggle on it's own ( basically too thin and too much tippet ) or it always
will, even when a straightened leader would be better in a given situation.


Again, I assume all the regulars around here are far more skilled and
knowledgeable than myself, but I like to think that someone out there might
get some advantage from reading ROFF... occasionally G


Larry L ( 'very nearly straight' still has a tiny bit of wiggle in the last
segment of tippet for dry fly use ... language is not my .. what is that
word, you know ... ah, ..well, ... I just ain't good at it )

Long tapered leaders
 

"Larry L" wrote in message
...

Larry L ( 'very nearly straight' still has a tiny bit of wiggle in the
last segment of tippet for dry fly use

In my case I had a very slight curve to the 9' leader, 18" tippet, and
fly-line.
There were two things I corrected that allowed me to straighten out the
leader/tippet/fly and fly-line.

1. Soften up on the last forward cast. I had a tendency to put a little
whump on the final forward cast. Since softening up and coming to a gentle
stop, I was able to take out the ever-so-slight shock. You still however
have to follow-through and lay it down on the final forward cast.

2. Come completely vertical on the back and forward cast. When I
wasn't complete vertical it produces a natural bow in the line and transfers
to
the leader/tippet/fly. Since casting vertical and easing up on the final
forward
cast, I can now cast completely straight...just have to learn to do it with
12'
leaders now.

As Lary L has said, there are times when you want a deliberate curve in the
cast; mending, curve casting behind objects, wiggle cast.

The split cane rod (soft rod) has taught me a lot about my casting stroke.
I've learned to soften-up and smooth out my cast, more of a fineness move
instead of a power application.
-tom

Long tapered leaders
 

"Conan The Librarian" wrote in message
...

When I visited western NC and the Smokies, I found that using a
short leader (less than rod length) worked best for dealing with the
overgrowth and tight quarters. When I met up with Wolfgang on an open
stretch of the Little River, he handed me a rod with about a 12'
leader (is that right, Wolfgang?) and told me to give that a try.

Yeah, I believe it was something like that.

To my eyes, my casts looked horrible; the leader landed in a pile
each time. But, the fish seemed more than happy to jump all over the
fly. Due to the slack, I missed some fish (and even had one fish that
I had "missed" somehow wind up on the end of my line after I finally
got all the slack in). But I had better luck when I followed
Wolfgang's advice and lengthened the leader on my own rig and stopped
worrying about how "pretty" my casts were.

I still struggle when I've got a leader much longer than the rod,
but I've been playing around with it more ever since that trip, and
when conditions permit, I'll definitely fish a longer leader.

A longer leader is definitely more difficult to handle, especially with
shorter, lighter, and/or slower rods. And there's no doubt that it is
sometimes unnecessary. But, it's pretty much like anything else in that
once you get used to it everything else feels wrong. Moreover, I've never
encountered a situation where a longer leader on the water in dry fly
fishing was a hindrance. In the air.....or the shrubbery.....is another
matter entirely. :(

Chuck Vance (now if I could just learn to throw slack line on
purpose)

The first rule of expert marksmanship is to identify the target after the
shot. Doubtless, there are applicable corollaries. :)

Wolfgang

Long tapered leaders
 

On Feb 8, 3:05 pm, "Tom Nakashima" wrote:
Has anyone had success turning over flies with long tapered
leaders?
Currently I'm using 4x 9' knotless tapered leaders with 18"
5x tippet material and been having good success turning over
18-16 size flies. I'm now planning to try 12' leaders with an 18"
5x tippet material. I'm thinking however the leaders don't
necessarily have to be knotless.
Any good formulas for 12' leaders for delicate presentation?
Keep in mind I do want to use 18" tippet material.
thanks,
-tom

I use them... No one really had much good to say about them, but I
fish a big tailwaters mostly. I think just like anyone you can get
carried away with a ton of leader, and struggling to get the
presentation just right when using one. On a nice non-windy day I
believe they work on a lot of those picky fish either runnin shallow
or in calm water. It does take practice to cast but I think you should
try it and see if it's right for your situation.

Long tapered leaders
 

One thing I've learned about casting 12' leaders is, it's more
difficult to cast short distances. I've been practicing casting at
various distances between 25' - 60' with the long leaders.
At shorter distances of 25' there's less line and therefore less
weight to carry the leader effectively for a good turnover of
the fly. This is where good tip-caster could do well.
-tom

Long tapered leaders
 

Tom Nakashima wrote:
One thing I've learned about casting 12' leaders is, it's more
difficult to cast short distances. I've been practicing casting at
various distances between 25' - 60' with the long leaders.
At shorter distances of 25' there's less line and therefore less
weight to carry the leader effectively for a good turnover of
the fly. This is where good tip-caster could do well.
-tom



You need a 12' rod. :-)

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

Long tapered leaders
 

"rw" wrote



You need a 12' rod. :-)



Which, for no reason even I can understand, reminds me that I've never been
able to 'dap' with any success ... seems the wind is blowing whenever I need
to try it and lowering the fly into the correct spot becomes an exercise in
frustration

Long tapered leaders
 

"rw" wrote in message
m...
Tom Nakashima wrote:
One thing I've learned about casting 12' leaders is, it's more
difficult to cast short distances. I've been practicing casting at
various distances between 25' - 60' with the long leaders.
At shorter distances of 25' there's less line and therefore less
weight to carry the leader effectively for a good turnover of
the fly. This is where good tip-caster could do well.
-tom
You need a 12' rod. :-)
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

It's just the opposite Steve,
to "cast short distances" with longer leaders, say 12' leaders,
a 7.5" fly-rod would work better. Or tip-cast. I was playing around
with tip-casting (using more of the wrist) and was able to generate
enough speed at a short distances to turn over the fly.

It's probably good to have a length range of leaders handy, and to
know how to cast them at various distances.
-tom