Problem with tying Wulffs
 

Howdy,

I've been tying all sorts of things for my NC trip, and in the
process of doing various Wulff ties, I noticed that I always seem to
have one problem. To wit, when I wrap the hackle from behind the wing
to in front, it always splays forward and winds up crowding the eye. I
build up the area in front of the wing, so there's a gentle slope (or
"ramp" as I believe Harry Mason calls it), but that doesn't seem to help.

I've tried tying the hackle in both ways (i.e., shiny side facing
the shank and dull side facing the shank), but it seems that the last
move of the hackle around the wing always screws up the position of the
hackle and causes it to splay. I can usually salvage things by holding
the stray fibers back before the next wrap, but I'm guessing I must be
missing something obvious.

Any ideas of what I might be doing wrong or helpful hints from you
more experienced tiers (tyers ... tires ... tyres)?


Chuck Vance (and while I've got your attention, how many wraps do
you try to get in front of and behind the wings?)

"Conan The Librarian" wrote


Any ideas of what I might be doing wrong or helpful hints from you more
experienced tiers (tyers ... tires ... tyres)?



one of my fondest daydreams .... right there with winning the lottery ....
is being able to tie a decent #20 Royal Wulff .... hell, I'd settle for an
#18 and $20 scratcher

Conan The Librarian wrote:

I've tried tying the hackle in both ways (i.e., shiny side facing

the shank and dull side facing the shank), but it seems that the last

move of the hackle around the wing always screws up the position of
the
hackle and causes it to splay. I can usually salvage things by
holding
the stray fibers back before the next wrap, but I'm guessing I must
be
missing something obvious.

Any ideas of what I might be doing wrong or helpful hints from
you
more experienced tiers (tyers ... tires ... tyres)?


Chuck Vance (and while I've got your attention, how many wraps
do
you try to get in front of and behind the wings?)

If Harry Mason or AK Best chime in, disregard what I say ;)

Are you using the right sized hackle for the hook? I don't use a guage
anymore, I just check that the fiber length is the same size as the
hook gape.

Anyway for what it is worth, on a wulff or humpy type tie, I moved the
calf tail back so it is a little more than 1/3 shank length distance to
the hook eye. I tie in both a brown hackle and a grizzly hackle infront
of the herl, wrap each fiber tightly twice behind the calf tail and
three times in front, as tight and as close to the calf tail as
possible. Sometimes I use a small hackle guard behind the eye to keep
me from getting too close the eye.

Good luck.

On Wed, 04 May 2005 07:30:35 -0500, Conan The Librarian
wrote:

Howdy,

I've been tying all sorts of things for my NC trip, and in the
process of doing various Wulff ties, I noticed that I always seem to
have one problem. To wit, when I wrap the hackle from behind the wing
to in front, it always splays forward and winds up crowding the eye. I
build up the area in front of the wing, so there's a gentle slope (or
"ramp" as I believe Harry Mason calls it), but that doesn't seem to help.

I've tried tying the hackle in both ways (i.e., shiny side facing
the shank and dull side facing the shank), but it seems that the last
move of the hackle around the wing always screws up the position of the
hackle and causes it to splay. I can usually salvage things by holding
the stray fibers back before the next wrap, but I'm guessing I must be
missing something obvious.

Any ideas of what I might be doing wrong or helpful hints from you
more experienced tiers (tyers ... tires ... tyres)?


Chuck Vance (and while I've got your attention, how many wraps do
you try to get in front of and behind the wings?)


Chuck, try a couple of things... post the wings back from the eye a
bit more... this may require you use a 1 or 2xL hook. Use a bit less
hair for the wings which makes the wing posts thinner so the
transition wrap of the hackle from the back of the wing to the front
will be more in a perpendicular plane to the hook shank.The angle of
the hackle wrap from the last (closest to the back side of the posted
wings) to the front has to be as narrow as you can get. If you make a
pronounced "cross under" going forward with the hackle stem, the
hackle barbs will "cock" forward, towards the eye, as you bring the
first wrap up and over on the front side of the wing. You will have,
in essence, made a small palmer wrapped the hackle collar.
Harry Mason
www.Troutflies.com

Conan The Librarian wrote:
Howdy,

I've been tying all sorts of things for my NC trip, and in the
process of doing various Wulff ties, I noticed that I always seem to
have one problem. To wit, when I wrap the hackle from behind the wing
to in front, it always splays forward and winds up crowding the eye. I
build up the area in front of the wing, so there's a gentle slope (or
"ramp" as I believe Harry Mason calls it), but that doesn't seem to help.

I've tried tying the hackle in both ways (i.e., shiny side facing the
shank and dull side facing the shank), but it seems that the last move
of the hackle around the wing always screws up the position of the
hackle and causes it to splay. I can usually salvage things by holding
the stray fibers back before the next wrap, but I'm guessing I must be
missing something obvious.

Any ideas of what I might be doing wrong or helpful hints from you
more experienced tiers (tyers ... tires ... tyres)?


Chuck Vance (and while I've got your attention, how many wraps do
you try to get in front of and behind the wings?)

Actually, the way you are tying them will always result in a crowded
eye. When tying any dry fly, the surface over which the hackle is wound
must be as cylindrical as you can make it. The hackle will always point
at a right angle to the surface it is wound on. When you cut off the
extra calf tail, make it rather squarish right near the eye. By tying
off the hackle at the head, you will build up the head sufficiently.

Also, I tie hairwings so that the butts point rearward, giving a much
smaller shank near the eye.

Hope this helps.

peter Collin

"Conan The Librarian" wrote in message
...
Howdy,

I've been tying all sorts of things for my NC trip, and in the
process of doing various Wulff ties, I noticed that I always seem to
have one problem. To wit, when I wrap the hackle from behind the wing
to in front, it always splays forward and winds up crowding the eye.
(snip)
Chuck Vance (and while I've got your attention, how many wraps do
you try to get in front of and behind the wings?)

Hi Chuck,
Harry Mason's "ramp" is important. Too steep, and whatever the hackle, you
are screw . . .er . . . have a problem.
Important is the hackle you use. Some have very thick stems . ..can cause
more problems. And twisting of hackle can always be a problem with any
stem when you just do it without considering the stem twist.

A few thoughts:
- Test a hackle before you ever put it on a fly. Wrap it around a bare hook
to see how the hackle works.
- If the stem is too dry, it may break, or crack. Steam it a bit before
tying.
- It seems I still many times have to "work" the stem/hackle based on how I
have done the underbody. I just can't wrap away without considering the
orientation of the hackle to the fly.
- Most often for dries, I tie with the shiny side up (away from the hook
shank) But I make exceptions to this also.
- As far as wraps, I'm all over the place. When I taught the stuff for
people just starting I was always concerned about crowding the eye. I
taught same number of wraps behind as in front of the wing for a "standard"
dry fly. When in "production" mode for a fly manufacturer, I went to 4
behind and 5 in front for Wulffs and Humpies for fast water, and 2 behind
and 2 in front for some others. All is the proportion of the fly. But it was
always several in back and several in front. I have even gone to 1 to 1.
"Willi", of ROFFand ROFFT, who lives only a couple hours north of me uses
sparsely hackled flies as I recall. My preference. (It seems I use 3-4 back
and 3-4 front for just my stuff)
I am getting ready for a short trip next week only an hour and a half from
me. (get this . ..I roughly counted 1000 flies in vest, plus a small carry
case) Heh . . .heh . . .also carrying a fly tying kit . . . if I can lift
it.
Won't be using any Wulff patterns on this trip.

Uhh . . . oh . . . the subject of the thread. Tie tail and wings first . .
..sorta important to me. I always use a hair stacker. If royal wulff, many
don't pay attention to the orientation of peacock herl. Look at it. Some go
back or forward in orientation, depending on how you make the wrap.
Hackle . . .I still always have to play with that part, depending on the
manufacturer. You have to sometimes twist the hackle/stem to make it " pay
attention".

Heck . . . just send me a pic. That will help me.
BestWishes,
DaveMohnsen
Denver

Wayne Knight wrote:

If Harry Mason or AK Best chime in, disregard what I say ;)

That reminds me, where has AK been, anyway? ;-)

Are you using the right sized hackle for the hook? I don't use a guage
anymore, I just check that the fiber length is the same size as the
hook gape.

I was about to answer that I am using the right hackle size, until I
saw the phrase "same size as the hook gape". I thought it was supposed
to be between 1 and 1-1/2 times the gape (i.e., more than the gape so
that the fly sits on the hackle rather than the hook).

Anyway for what it is worth, on a wulff or humpy type tie, I moved the
calf tail back so it is a little more than 1/3 shank length distance to
the hook eye. I tie in both a brown hackle and a grizzly hackle infront
of the herl, wrap each fiber tightly twice behind the calf tail and
three times in front, as tight and as close to the calf tail as
possible. Sometimes I use a small hackle guard behind the eye to keep
me from getting too close the eye.

Do you use a manufactured guard or a bit of a drinking straw or some
other homemade guard? I've been playing around with homemade things,
but find that I'm just as well off just using my third hand to hold the
fibers back. ;-)

I do like your suggestion of moving the wing. I've even been
playing around with tying Wulffs on 2X long dry hooks (TMC 5212?). To
my eye the proportions still look OK, but I guess the fish will be the
final arbiters of that. :-}

Thanks for your help. I was starting to think that either it was a
dumb question and no-one else on ROFF(T) has problems tying Wulffs, or
*everyone* has problems and no-one had any answers. :-)


Chuck Vance

Peter A. Collin wrote:

Actually, the way you are tying them will always result in a crowded
eye. When tying any dry fly, the surface over which the hackle is wound
must be as cylindrical as you can make it. The hackle will always point
at a right angle to the surface it is wound on. When you cut off the
extra calf tail, make it rather squarish right near the eye. By tying
off the hackle at the head, you will build up the head sufficiently.

I'm not sure I'm understanding you correctly here. You say that I
should make the calf-tail cut "squarish right near the eye". But I tie
on the calftail with the butts pointed towards the hook bend, so there
isn't anything to cut off near the eye.

And every instruction I've ever read (or at least Harry's :-) says
to make angled cuts, never square ones.

As far as making a cylindrical surface for the hackle to rest on,
that's basically what I'm trying to do with the "ramp" I describe. But
I don't see how you can make a cylinder that runs all the way to the
hook eye and matches the size of the buildup behind the wings. Seems
like the thread would just slide right off the eye. :-)

Or are you saying that you tie the wing-butts off in front, so you
already have a buildup there?

Thanks for your suggestions.


Chuck Vance

DaveMohnsen wrote:

Hi Chuck,
Harry Mason's "ramp" is important. Too steep, and whatever the hackle, you
are screw . . .er . . . have a problem.
Important is the hackle you use. Some have very thick stems . ..can cause
more problems. And twisting of hackle can always be a problem with any
stem when you just do it without considering the stem twist.

A few thoughts:
- Test a hackle before you ever put it on a fly. Wrap it around a bare hook
to see how the hackle works.
- If the stem is too dry, it may break, or crack. Steam it a bit before
tying.
- It seems I still many times have to "work" the stem/hackle based on how I
have done the underbody. I just can't wrap away without considering the
orientation of the hackle to the fly.
- Most often for dries, I tie with the shiny side up (away from the hook
shank) But I make exceptions to this also.

This is all good advice, thanks. Just for perspective, I tend to
tie my Wulffs with the pre-sized Whiting hackle. I bought a bunch of
that when I was just starting out tying trout flies, and it's handy when
tying a fly like a Wulff where there is a lot you have to get right. :-)

I use Harry's trick of "softening" the hackle by taking it over the
far side of the hook and back to the close side before doing the final
wrap. (That also lets me know what to expect when doing the wrap.)

light bulb I just realized one thing that I do, and this may be
what's causing the problem. You mention tying with the shiny side *up*,
but I tend to tie my hackle in so that the shiny or dull side is facing
me rather than paralleling the hook. Once I do the "softening", I wrap
so the hackle is perpendicular to the hook, but maybe that's a twist I
should avoid.

I think I picked up that habit tying parachutes, and it's stuck with
me.

[sip of useful info on number of wraps]

Uhh . . . oh . . . the subject of the thread. Tie tail and wings first . .
.sorta important to me. I always use a hair stacker. If royal wulff, many
don't pay attention to the orientation of peacock herl. Look at it. Some go
back or forward in orientation, depending on how you make the wrap.
Hackle . . .I still always have to play with that part, depending on the
manufacturer. You have to sometimes twist the hackle/stem to make it " pay
attention".

Excellent summation, thanks.

Heck . . . just send me a pic. That will help me.

I've got a couple of pics on my website. One is a "Carolina" Wulff:
http://uweb.txstate.edu/~cv01/ncwulff.jpg The other is a "Thunderhead":
http://uweb.txstate.edu/~cv01/thunderhead.jpg

Those were taken a while back, but you can see the types of problems
I have (especially too little hackle in front of the wing, I expect).

Thanks for your advice, Dave.


Chuck Vance

bones wrote:

Chuck, try a couple of things... post the wings back from the eye a
bit more... this may require you use a 1 or 2xL hook. Use a bit less
hair for the wings which makes the wing posts thinner so the
transition wrap of the hackle from the back of the wing to the front
will be more in a perpendicular plane to the hook shank.The angle of
the hackle wrap from the last (closest to the back side of the posted
wings) to the front has to be as narrow as you can get. If you make a
pronounced "cross under" going forward with the hackle stem, the
hackle barbs will "cock" forward, towards the eye, as you bring the
first wrap up and over on the front side of the wing. You will have,
in essence, made a small palmer wrapped the hackle collar.

I think we have a winner. :-) Now that you mention it, I expect I
use too much hair (or parapost, as I sometimes tie with that for wings
on Wulff ties). Also, thinking about it some more, I tend to get
carried away when I'm posting the wings, thinking that more thread wraps
will make a more stable wing. In the process, I'm creating a broad wing
base which I have to negotiate with the hackle wrap.

As for using XL hooks -- funny, but that's one thing I've been
playing around with. I worry about messing up proportions, but with a
Wulff tie, it doesn't seem to look bad. If anything, it looks better;
my Wulffs tend to look a bit chunky.

Thanks, Harry ... I think you hit on it.


Chuck Vance