Problem with tying Wulffs

Howdy,

I've been tying all sorts of things for my NC trip, and in the
process of doing various Wulff ties, I noticed that I always seem to
have one problem. To wit, when I wrap the hackle from behind the wing
to in front, it always splays forward and winds up crowding the eye. I
build up the area in front of the wing, so there's a gentle slope (or
"ramp" as I believe Harry Mason calls it), but that doesn't seem to help.

I've tried tying the hackle in both ways (i.e., shiny side facing
the shank and dull side facing the shank), but it seems that the last
move of the hackle around the wing always screws up the position of the
hackle and causes it to splay. I can usually salvage things by holding
the stray fibers back before the next wrap, but I'm guessing I must be
missing something obvious.

Any ideas of what I might be doing wrong or helpful hints from you
more experienced tiers (tyers ... tires ... tyres)?


Chuck Vance (and while I've got your attention, how many wraps do
you try to get in front of and behind the wings?)

"Conan The Librarian" wrote


Any ideas of what I might be doing wrong or helpful hints from you more
experienced tiers (tyers ... tires ... tyres)?



one of my fondest daydreams .... right there with winning the lottery ....
is being able to tie a decent #20 Royal Wulff .... hell, I'd settle for an
#18 and $20 scratcher

Conan The Librarian wrote:

I've tried tying the hackle in both ways (i.e., shiny side facing

the shank and dull side facing the shank), but it seems that the last

move of the hackle around the wing always screws up the position of
the
hackle and causes it to splay. I can usually salvage things by
holding
the stray fibers back before the next wrap, but I'm guessing I must
be
missing something obvious.

Any ideas of what I might be doing wrong or helpful hints from
you
more experienced tiers (tyers ... tires ... tyres)?


Chuck Vance (and while I've got your attention, how many wraps
do
you try to get in front of and behind the wings?)

If Harry Mason or AK Best chime in, disregard what I say

Are you using the right sized hackle for the hook? I don't use a guage
anymore, I just check that the fiber length is the same size as the
hook gape.

Anyway for what it is worth, on a wulff or humpy type tie, I moved the
calf tail back so it is a little more than 1/3 shank length distance to
the hook eye. I tie in both a brown hackle and a grizzly hackle infront
of the herl, wrap each fiber tightly twice behind the calf tail and
three times in front, as tight and as close to the calf tail as
possible. Sometimes I use a small hackle guard behind the eye to keep
me from getting too close the eye.

Good luck.

Wayne Knight wrote:

If Harry Mason or AK Best chime in, disregard what I say

That reminds me, where has AK been, anyway? ;-)

Are you using the right sized hackle for the hook? I don't use a guage
anymore, I just check that the fiber length is the same size as the
hook gape.

I was about to answer that I am using the right hackle size, until I
saw the phrase "same size as the hook gape". I thought it was supposed
to be between 1 and 1-1/2 times the gape (i.e., more than the gape so
that the fly sits on the hackle rather than the hook).

Anyway for what it is worth, on a wulff or humpy type tie, I moved the
calf tail back so it is a little more than 1/3 shank length distance to
the hook eye. I tie in both a brown hackle and a grizzly hackle infront
of the herl, wrap each fiber tightly twice behind the calf tail and
three times in front, as tight and as close to the calf tail as
possible. Sometimes I use a small hackle guard behind the eye to keep
me from getting too close the eye.

Do you use a manufactured guard or a bit of a drinking straw or some
other homemade guard? I've been playing around with homemade things,
but find that I'm just as well off just using my third hand to hold the
fibers back. ;-)

I do like your suggestion of moving the wing. I've even been
playing around with tying Wulffs on 2X long dry hooks (TMC 5212?). To
my eye the proportions still look OK, but I guess the fish will be the
final arbiters of that. :-}

Thanks for your help. I was starting to think that either it was a
dumb question and no-one else on ROFF(T) has problems tying Wulffs, or
*everyone* has problems and no-one had any answers. :-)


Chuck Vance

Conan The Librarian wrote:

I was about to answer that I am using the right hackle size,
until I
saw the phrase "same size as the hook gape". I thought it was
supposed
to be between 1 and 1-1/2 times the gape (i.e., more than the gape so

that the fly sits on the hackle rather than the hook

It's probably *supposed* to be the ration you mention, on flies with
long tails, I prefer to keep the hackle the size of the gape. Which
puts it on the smaller end of the spectrum.


Do you use a manufactured guard or a bit of a drinking straw or
some
other homemade guard? I've been playing around with homemade things,

but find that I'm just as well off just using my third hand to hold
the
fibers back. ;-)

I use something I picked up a few years ago, it's metal with a slotted
round and slightly conical head. I looked online in a few places for a
picture but did not find one. I've also used a hair stacker in a pinch,
I tend to carry my wraps out too far and the guard keeps me honest.


I do like your suggestion of moving the wing. I've even been
playing around with tying Wulffs on 2X long dry hooks (TMC 5212?).
To
my eye the proportions still look OK, but I guess the fish will be
the
final arbiters of that. :-}

I tie almost all of my dry flies on 2x long hooks, Otherwise I'd really
be screwed

Thanks for your help. I was starting to think that either it was
a
dumb question and no-one else on ROFF(T) has problems tying Wulffs,
or
*everyone* has problems and no-one had any answers. :-)

I think of those who responded, Mr. Collin probably has the best
experience. The last fly swap I entered, I had to tie almost 60 to get
24 to send.

Wayne Knight wrote:
Conan The Librarian wrote:
snip
Do you use a manufactured guard or a bit of a drinking straw or
some other homemade guard? I've been playing around with homemade
things,

but find that I'm just as well off just using my third hand to hold
the fibers back. ;-)

I use something I picked up a few years ago, it's metal with a slotted
round and slightly conical head. I looked online in a few places for a
picture but did not find one.

When I started tying a few years ago, I would find those in almost every
fly shop. I think I picked up a set (for different sized hooks) from
Walt at http://ezflyfish.com, but now I can't find them at all. A very
handy tool when you're crowding the eye.
--
TL,
Tim
------------------------
http://css.sbcma.com/timj

Tim J. wrote:

When I started tying a few years ago, I would find those in almost every
fly shop. I think I picked up a set (for different sized hooks) from
Walt at http://ezflyfish.com, but now I can't find them at all. A very
handy tool when you're crowding the eye.

Are you talking about the Thompson hackle guard:
http://www.dhthompson.com/tools.php

I've got one of those somewhere in my stack of stuff. I bought it
thinking I'd use it all the time, and promptly stuck it in one of my
tying materials bins, never to be seen again. :-}


Chuck Vance (who tends to grab a length of plastic straw when he
gets desperate)

Something about the hackle proportions: If you want to emulate the Wulff's,
as tied(tyed) by Lee Wulff and Dan Bailey, then the hackle will be 1-1/2 to
2 times the gap. or roughly the length of the shank from the eye to the
bend. I'm fairly sure that Lee Wulff used the Mustad 9671 (2xl) for his
Wulffs. Of course maybe he did that because he was tying without a vise.
Personally, I don't like the idea of a gentle sloping bed of wraps in front
of the wing. The hackle will follow that slope which will angle the barbs
forward. Build up a dam immediately against the front of the wing. Encircle
the individual wings to stand them up. Then lay a smooth layer of thread in
front of the wing as a base. That way, when you wrap the hackle, the barbs
will stand straighter then with a sloped underbody.

Allan

On Wed, 04 May 2005 07:30:35 -0500, Conan The Librarian
wrote:

Howdy,

I've been tying all sorts of things for my NC trip, and in the
process of doing various Wulff ties, I noticed that I always seem to
have one problem. To wit, when I wrap the hackle from behind the wing
to in front, it always splays forward and winds up crowding the eye. I
build up the area in front of the wing, so there's a gentle slope (or
"ramp" as I believe Harry Mason calls it), but that doesn't seem to help.

I've tried tying the hackle in both ways (i.e., shiny side facing
the shank and dull side facing the shank), but it seems that the last
move of the hackle around the wing always screws up the position of the
hackle and causes it to splay. I can usually salvage things by holding
the stray fibers back before the next wrap, but I'm guessing I must be
missing something obvious.

Any ideas of what I might be doing wrong or helpful hints from you
more experienced tiers (tyers ... tires ... tyres)?


Chuck Vance (and while I've got your attention, how many wraps do
you try to get in front of and behind the wings?)


Chuck, try a couple of things... post the wings back from the eye a
bit more... this may require you use a 1 or 2xL hook. Use a bit less
hair for the wings which makes the wing posts thinner so the
transition wrap of the hackle from the back of the wing to the front
will be more in a perpendicular plane to the hook shank.The angle of
the hackle wrap from the last (closest to the back side of the posted
wings) to the front has to be as narrow as you can get. If you make a
pronounced "cross under" going forward with the hackle stem, the
hackle barbs will "cock" forward, towards the eye, as you bring the
first wrap up and over on the front side of the wing. You will have,
in essence, made a small palmer wrapped the hackle collar.
Harry Mason
www.Troutflies.com

bones wrote:

Chuck, try a couple of things... post the wings back from the eye a
bit more... this may require you use a 1 or 2xL hook. Use a bit less
hair for the wings which makes the wing posts thinner so the
transition wrap of the hackle from the back of the wing to the front
will be more in a perpendicular plane to the hook shank.The angle of
the hackle wrap from the last (closest to the back side of the posted
wings) to the front has to be as narrow as you can get. If you make a
pronounced "cross under" going forward with the hackle stem, the
hackle barbs will "cock" forward, towards the eye, as you bring the
first wrap up and over on the front side of the wing. You will have,
in essence, made a small palmer wrapped the hackle collar.

I think we have a winner. :-) Now that you mention it, I expect I
use too much hair (or parapost, as I sometimes tie with that for wings
on Wulff ties). Also, thinking about it some more, I tend to get
carried away when I'm posting the wings, thinking that more thread wraps
will make a more stable wing. In the process, I'm creating a broad wing
base which I have to negotiate with the hackle wrap.

As for using XL hooks -- funny, but that's one thing I've been
playing around with. I worry about messing up proportions, but with a
Wulff tie, it doesn't seem to look bad. If anything, it looks better;
my Wulffs tend to look a bit chunky.

Thanks, Harry ... I think you hit on it.


Chuck Vance