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A Plea for Sanity
All,
It has been noted, by some who a regulars, and some who are less frequent posters, that ROFF has gotten nearly painful to read of late. Bitter exchanges, misinterpretations, off-hand insults and the like are far too common, the latest example being Dave LaCourse's "dialogue" with several folks. Perhaps it is, as suggested, the annual "cabin fever". I think, in some cases, it goes deeper than that. Here in the US, we are in the midst of a divisive election year. Further, as noted in his own posts, David has some serious health worries. I think such worries can, and do, color one's tolerance and manner of dealing with others. About a year back, Mike Connor and I had a bitter exchange, which upon reflection was probably made far more virulent by the fact that both of us were in distress over the health of a loved one. Not that such are excuses, but I am here to make a plea for tolerance of others which seems to have evaporated from the posts of some on here. As Wolfgang noted in another thread, this place has been capable of spawning friendships, fishing partnerships and a special kind of kinship among its participants over the past 10 years. I have always enjoyed the intellectual debates and downright silliness that occurs here, but as wayno noted, the tearing asunder of friendships is painful to watch. I beg for sanity, and an attempt to understand the feeling of others. Take the tongue-in-check stuff with a grain of salt, understand the limitations of Usenet communication and try to bring something to the table that is positive once in a while. I'll probably get the predicatable amount of response along the lines of "don't tell me what to do...",etc, but really couldn't care less. I am not telling anyone what to do, just hoping that some can find it in their souls to do the right thing, and act like adults. Tom |
A Plea for Sanity
Tommy Littleton cued the sappy violin sound track and pleaded:
... Not that such are excuses, but I am here to make a plea for tolerance of others which seems to have evaporated from the posts of some on here. ... **** that ****. -- Ken Fortenberry |
A Plea for Sanity
"Tom Littleton" wrote... All, It has been noted, by some who a regulars, and some who are less frequent posters, that ROFF has gotten nearly painful to read of late. Bitter exchanges, misinterpretations, off-hand insults and the like are far too common, snip Yeah, it sure would be good if the personal name calling and insults could be taken off-line before they get placed on display here. Oh, and FYT. :) -- TL, Tim http://css.sbcma.com/timj |
A Plea for Sanity
Peter Charles wrote: About the only problem I see emerging is the apparent slowdown in the accretion of new "regulars". The newsreader stats posted by Forty seems to indicate a reduction in new/return posters and the same old, same old dominating the charts. The seemingly endless internecine warfare has to be turn-off for newbies. As I said previously, wayno calls this place Darwinian and Darwin's theories include extinction. The attrition of regular posters without being replaced new people, will lead to deterioration. The infighting with the regulars is one thing and it can dominate the conversations and go over board especially in the Winter, but I think the part of ROFF that is most self destructive is the game - "abuse the newbe" - that some people seem to find entertaining. Personally, I find it hard to come up with any "on topic" stuff in the middle of the Winter and fall into the "****" now and again. Spring is just around the corner and I'm willing to bet things will improve. At least I'll have more to say. Willi |
A Plea for Sanity
"Tom Littleton" wrote in message ... All, It has been noted, by some who a regulars, and some who are less frequent posters, that ROFF has gotten nearly painful to read of late. (snip well-reasoned plea for future group self-control) over the winter, i have returned to my lifelong love of playing/singing acoustic guitar. naturally, i sought a usenet group that expressed a shared interest in the activity. the group, rmmga (rec. music. makers. guitar. acoustic), is, in many ways, similar to roff. there is an obvious core group of regulars (often referred to as the "inner circle") of about the same size as here--i would estimate twenty to thirty would be a good guess. they often discuss ot subjects, and they have their inside jokes, developed from their clave-like regional meetings, which they call "gatherings". their talent levels vary from rank beginners (even though those types may be found among the "inner circle" of long time posters) to the highest level of professional talent. they distribute, for a nominal cost, a collection of songs/pieces about once a year, organized, collated, and produced by certain of their membership. while the number of "regulars" is about the same as roff, the number of "middleground" posters, random repeaters, and newbies, is considerably higher than on our group. within the relatively short term of my participation, i have watched with considerable bemusement as the "inner circle", which is comprised of a rainbow of personalities, met the challenge of a newbie who was determined to bombard the group with thread hijackings centered around his own very right-wing political attitudes. the core group, *almost to a man*, without regard to the variation of their own politics, absolutely smothered the renegade's efforts to create wholesale dissension. he retired from the fray after about two or three weeks of fruitless blustering. i must say that the quality of intellect and literacy displayed over there doesn't match the best roff has to offer; few places do. but when it comes to finding a place to go for some pleasant interaction concerning one's particular choice of escapism, the guitar room is where i find myself, more and more. i fear that others, both regulars and those who just stop by for a drink or two, now and then, will make the same choice, until roff as we knew it will, as peter charles perceptively notes, becomes extinct. my reading of tom littleton's post, and my understanding of my own petulant urgings is not to make this place into a place populated by stepford wives; no one wants a usenet version of "pleasantville". like most of life, it's a matter of degree; and while no one can convince me that the intensely personal vendettas that seem to have grown in number and intensity over the last few months do not portend dark times, i know enough about some of the people involved to hold out hope that we can mend the tears in the fabric, at least for long enough to fish together again, and thereby heal ourselves and this community. yfitons wayno |
A Plea for Sanity
Wayne Harrison wrote: my reading of tom littleton's post, and my understanding of my own petulant urgings is not to make this place into a place populated by stepford wives; no one wants a usenet version of "pleasantville". like most of life, it's a matter of degree; and while no one can convince me that the intensely personal vendettas that seem to have grown in number and intensity over the last few months do not portend dark times, i know enough about some of the people involved to hold out hope that we can mend the tears in the fabric, at least for long enough to fish together again, and thereby heal ourselves and this community. In the past, I've made statements similar to yours from time to time (although probably not as eloquently posed) and I was met with with statements, from you as well as others, such as "all you want is a group that discusses fishing - how boring", " if you don't like it don't read it" etc. Things may be A BIT different right now on ROFF, but if they are, they aren't much different. I was puzzled by the recent criticisms you made of ROFF. It thought they were quite similar to statements I made in the past that you discounted, but now that you've found a new place to hang, it makes more sense. Willi |
A Plea for Sanity
"Wayne Harrison" schrieb im Newsbeitrag . com... SNIP of the people involved to hold out hope that we can mend the tears in the fabric, at least for long enough to fish together again, and thereby heal ourselves and this community. yfitons wayno Even train wrecks pall eventually. This is not a community, it is basically a motley collection of widely differing individuals who happen to come in here for whatever reason. There may be some community feeling at claves etc, but there is not much here. This is mainly because many people can not get along with total freedom of speech. (Within the limitations obtaining here of course). Wishing others to be friendly and polite is not sufficient, one must also be friendly and polite. Without some form of control, chaos invariably eventually reigns. The only real control here is self-control, and some simply donīt have any. I donīt see this changing either. If one discusses off-topic contentious material, then the results are inevitable, as many disagreements almost immediately deteriorate into personal battles. Hardly anybody wants to read or become otherwise involved in such. It is embarrassing and pointless. As a fishing NG, this place has become almost useless. Just like governments, you get the newsgroup you deserve. If you want a better one, then the general behaviour and attitude of the participants has to change. I donīt think this is likely either. This group can only become extinct if the level of posting sinks below a certain level for a certain period of time. This too is unlikely. What is possible is that more and more of the once prolific posters retire, or at least post less, this might allow some new blood to assert itself. Whether that is then "better" is a moot point, and entirely subjective. As it happens, I agree with your sentiments, and Tom Littletonīs as well, but others will not do so, and even this will cause contention, as doubtless even my agreement therewith! Some comments to this effect have already been made. Unless a common basis is found, and some people practice a little restraint, things will simply not change. TL MC |
A Plea for Sanity
Peter Charles wrote:
About the only problem I see emerging is the apparent slowdown in the accretion of new "regulars". The newsreader stats posted by Forty seems to indicate a reduction in new/return posters and the same old, same old dominating the charts. The seemingly endless internecine warfare has to be turn-off for newbies. As I said previously, wayno calls this place Darwinian and Darwin's theories include extinction. The whole "Darwinian" business is cute but can only bear so much. Sure, "survival of the fittest" and all that jazz. Hardly likely, though, that a newsgroup would become "extinct" in anything like the way a species does. People come, some stay, some go, some come back, some stay gone. So, ROFF "mutates", it "evolves", but not in any Darwinian sense. The size of the "core group" of regulars probably stays around the same over time, with attrition and "recruitment" more or less equal (who knows, maybe there's some more or less standard "inner circle" size for Usenet--the maximum number whose personal histories, likes/dislikes, etc., other Inner Circlers can comfortably keep in their heads). And even if ROFF could cease to exist (or if it were to atrophy to *only* the same 10-20 folks) and the rest of the millions of fly fishers in the world went and did something else, just how dire would that be, who would care? JR |
A Plea for Sanity
JR wrote:
... And even if ROFF could cease to exist (or if it were to atrophy to *only* the same 10-20 folks) and the rest of the millions of fly fishers in the world went and did something else, just how dire would that be, who would care? Well said, JR. Maudlin pleas for comity, camaraderie and "can't we all get along and sing a round of Kumbaya" are as old as cabin fever itself. In actual point of fact, no, we cannot all get along, we never have and we never will. Those who can deal with that, either by staying out of the fray, ignoring it altogether or participating in it, will stay, those who cannot will leave. 'Twas ever thus on unmoderated Usenet newsgroups. -- Ken Fortenberry |
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