How important is the spine of a blank?

I keep hearing contradictory stories about the spine of a blank. Most
people seem to ignore it, but some say the right placement of the guides
along the spine (or 180 degrees opposed) is the single most important
thing to check while selecting a rod.

Is this fact or fiction?

Thanks

I keep hearing contradictory stories about the spine of a blank. Most
people seem to ignore it, but some say the right placement of the guides
along the spine (or 180 degrees opposed) is the single most important
thing to check while selecting a rod.

Is this fact or fiction?

Thanks

I have never seen(or heard of for the matter) a manufacture place guides on
the "wrong" side of the spine. All rods except multireel/trigger rods should
have their guides placed on the "spine side" of the blank. Reverse on
multireel/trigger rods.

If you place the guides on the wrong side, the rod becomes very "soft" and
"slabby" if you can use these words.


/Thomas

Spline finding is above all a stability issue, where the rod will be stable
under load. With the guides on the bottom of a fly rod and the reel there
also, stability would seem not to be an issue.
Sage, Loomis, etc do not spline their rods, they put their guides on in
such a way as the hide any curve in the blank with the guide placement.
They know that most rods are looked at from the top or the bottom, not from
the side where you'd notice a blank curve.
There is no sloppy, soft side of a blank. If there was we'd all be in
trouble as the soft and hard sides of a blank's spline are rarely 180 deg.
apart.

Some set heir eyes on or opposite the spline so the rod will cast straight
and true. Others set their eyes for cosmetic reasons. I try to set mine
relative to the spline in case it may have some effect on how true the rod
casts

--


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"William H.M. Wood" wrote in message
...




I keep hearing contradictory stories about the spine of a blank. Most
people seem to ignore it, but some say the right placement of the guides
along the spine (or 180 degrees opposed) is the single most important
thing to check while selecting a rod.

Is this fact or fiction?

Thanks

wrote:

There is no sloppy, soft side of a blank. If there was we'd all be in
trouble as the soft and hard sides of a blank's spline are rarely 180 deg.
apart.

The blank of the one rod I've built definitely had a spine, and the soft
side and stiff side were 180 degrees apart. I read somewhere that this
occurs because of the way the the graphite overlaps when it's wrapped on
the mandrel. That sounds plausible to me.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

wrote in message
ink.net...
Spline finding is above all a stability issue, where the rod will be
stable
under load. With the guides on the bottom of a fly rod and the reel there
also, stability would seem not to be an issue.
Sage, Loomis, etc do not spline their rods, they put their guides on in
such a way as the hide any curve in the blank with the guide placement.
They know that most rods are looked at from the top or the bottom, not
from
the side where you'd notice a blank curve.
There is no sloppy, soft side of a blank. If there was we'd all be in
trouble as the soft and hard sides of a blank's spline are rarely 180 deg.
apart.

Having read all of this carefully, I am struck not so much by the question
of whether your analysis is right or wrong, but rather by the fact that none
of it seems to mean anything at all.

Point 1. "Spline finding is above all a stability issue, where the rod will
be stable under load."

Finding the spine....or spline....is a matter of holding one end of a blank
section at one end and allowing the other to rest on some surface, keeping
it at a shallow angle, and turning it. If one side of the blank is
stiffer.....almost certainly a result of being slightly thicker by virtue of
the process by which blanks are manufactured....there may be a noticeable
change in the downward curvature as the blank is turned. The spine is up
when that curvature is at a minimum. Once the guides are attached, their
weight will swamp the effects of the spine.....or you've got a piece of crap
that should be discarded. None of this holds true for butt sections or, in
multi piece rods, for any of the other thick sections.....they are simply
too stiff for any noticeable effect. A fly rod under load will ALWAYS curve
with the tip toward the line extending from it, which is to say, toward the
load, because of it's inherent flexibility and the fundamental laws of
mechanics. Stability WOULD be an issue IF the rod were rigid and curved
with the tip pointing in any direction other than at the load, but it isn't
and it doesn't, so it isn't.

Point 2. "With the guides on the bottom of a fly rod and the reel there
also, stability would seem not to be an issue."

Assuming that the "bottom" is that side toward the ground when the rod is
held horizontally and when gravity is allowed to do what it does, the reel
and line guides will, of course, always be at the bottom. What any of this
has to do with what a rod does under load.....or with anything else, for
that matter, is a complete mystery. Moreover, if the reel and guides are on
the bottom.....and you seem to be suggesting that they are....and this
negates stability issues, then one is hard pressed to understand why spline
finding (Point 1) matters at all.

Point 3. "Sage, Loomis, etc do not spline their rods,"

Does this mean that they do not put a spline in their rods, or that they do
not bother to find it in the process of attaching components....or what? Is
"Sage, Loomis, etc" meant to indicate inclusion of ALL rod manufacturers or
is this indicative of a distinction of some sort? In other words, do SOME
manufacturers but not others "spline their rods".....whatever that might
mean?

Point 4. "they put their guides on in such a way as the hide any curve in
the blank with the guide placement."

This one is a true gem. I can't even think of a way to frame a question
about what this might possibly mean.

Point 5. "They know that most rods are looked at from the top or the
bottom, not from the side where you'd notice a blank curve."

"Most " rods? Why not ALL rods? And where in God's name would they come up
with the patently absurd notion that people don't look at rods from the
side? Have you EVER seen anyone pick up a fly rod that he or she was
thinking about buying (or examining for any other reason, for that matter)
without turning it this way and that? And if they don't bother to "spline
their rods"....whatever in the world that might mean.....and there is a
curve in the rod, then that curve could, presumably, be in any direction.
Whether or not one could see the curve would indeed depend on which
direction one was looking from, but it could be any direction.....well,
actually, the curvature would be invisible from two diametrically opposed
directions. And, again, if you hold ANY finished fly rod horizontally and
it curves any way but down toward the tip, it is in fact NOT a fly rod. It
is a tomato stake.

Point 6. "There is no sloppy, soft side of a blank. If there was we'd all
be in trouble as the soft and hard sides of a blank's spline are rarely 180
deg. apart.

If there is no soft side of a blank, then how far apart it and the hard side
are would seem to be moot. Moreover, even if it were important, angular
measurements between one thing and nothing are notoriously difficult to do
with any precision. And all of this, of course, doesn't begin to touch on
the knotty problem of how you can even HAVE a hard side......I mean, the
thing about comparative terms is that.....well.....you have to have
something to compare WITH. See what I mean? The HARD side has to be harder
than SOMETHING or else why would we bother to call it hard? And if there's
no SOFT side, then one is pretty much at a loss as to just what it is harder
than.

Wolfgang
who hopes this helps......but won't be holding his breath.

Hi Bill,

I could write for hours/days on this subject but will try to say a few good
things here. It is hard to describe this in words.

Steve Rajeff is the worlds most famous professional fly caster who works
daily designing the G.Loomis fly rods. The people at G.Loomis don't feel the
spine is worth worrying about till you get to a #8 rod. I learned this in a
factory tour.

Most rod manufactures put the guide on the blank on the bottom of any bend
so the rod looks straighter. If their blank is not dead on (straight), the
rod will look crooked if they follow the spine. Sad but true.

It is pretty hard to find the spine on a fast action 4 piece 9' graphite
rod.

I started building fiberglass rods in the '60s at Edwolt's Rod & Reel Repair
in Sacramento, CA, USA. They had one piece yellow fiberglass Lamiglass and
Grizzly blanks. They taught us how to build rods. Lee, Wanda and Mike were
very good to lots of us kids. They took us in the back and showed us how to
wrap a rod.


I also built rods and repaired them in a bait & tackle shop in the '70s.

I have sold blanks and rod building materials for 39 years now helping many
people to get started.

The spine is a big debate.

I usually fine the spine by holding the top of the blank section in my left
hand and put the bottom on the edge of a table or sales counter. Then I
apply power in the middle of the piece with my right hand to push it into a
bend or arc. While rolling the blank you can feel different power or
strength in the blank. I usually put masking tape around the blank and have
someone mark it for me when I get it to the 'soft side' or the relaxed side.
Sometimes there are two spines in a blank.

Another way that I was shown in the last 10 years was to take the blank
section (mostly the tip) and stand it vertically on it's bottom on a surface
then put the palm of your open hand on the top and just push down till you
get the blank into a bow or arc. The inside of this curve will be the soft
side of the blank so then you can put the snake guides on the opposite or
hard side for power for casting. The soft side will be better for fighting
trout so it won't break the light tippets.

No we can argue this for hours, days, weeks, years.............but who
cares.

Rod building is all but dead now in most fly shops. Maybe because of the
high cost of blanks , the low cost of new import rods and the lifetime
warranty on new rods?

A good friend, Gary Anderson, of Anderson Custom Rods in southern Oregon is
one of the world finest rod builders. I have discussed the spine issue with
him and we do the same thing. I think that it makes a rod more directional
while casting to have the guides in the right place on the blank.

--
Bill Kiene

Kiene's Fly Shop
Sacramento, CA, USA

Web site: www.kiene.com


"William H.M. Wood" wrote in message
...




I keep hearing contradictory stories about the spine of a blank. Most
people seem to ignore it, but some say the right placement of the guides
along the spine (or 180 degrees opposed) is the single most important
thing to check while selecting a rod.

Is this fact or fiction?

Thanks

"rw" wrote:
The blank of the one rod I've built definitely had a spine, and the soft
side and stiff side were 180 degrees apart. I read somewhere that this
occurs because of the way the the graphite overlaps when it's wrapped on
the mandrel. That sounds plausible to me.

I've built at least 50 rods, and I've always found the softest spine to
be 90 degrees from the stiffest. The second stiffest spine is usually 180
degrees from the stiffest, and they are often damn hard to tell apart.
I usually place the guides in alignment with the with the soft spine, in
the theory that the rod will be easier to cast accurately; occasionally I
place the guides on the butt section on the hard spine for a little extra
power. I have cast a number of factory finished rods that had a rather
haphazard guide/spine relationship, and I as of late I tend to agree that it
doesn't make a huge difference.