Fish do/don't anticipate things? (was: "ARAs" against Game chickens)

On 26 Aug 2005 Goo wrote:

dh wrote:

Fish can and do anticipate Goo

They don't.

It has already been established that they do. One
example of them anticipating is: lake fish hang out
around lakeside restaurants because people feed
them. And we've also noted that they follow ducks
around, Goo, out of anticipation of the ducks getting
some bread, and quite possibly of what might come
out of the ducks' asses as well...processed bread.
Those are two clear examples of anticipation in fish.
There are probably plenty more of them.

Yes, they do! When they see you outside the tank, don't they wiggle
with anticipation of being fed???

n

NanK wrote:
Yes, they do! When they see you outside the tank, don't they wiggle
with anticipation of being fed???

n

Even the simplest organisms have some capacity for learning when it's
directly related to their survival. If a fish always sees a person when
it's being fed, it will associate the image of a person with food and
will exhibit feeding behavior every time it sees somebody, even before
any food is dropped in front of them. In the wild and in captivity, this
ability to associate events ensures that the smartest fish gets to the
food faster than the dumb ones and is thus more likely to survive longer
to pass on it's "smart" genes.

The only question I have, could such a fish (one having learned to
associate the presence of humans with food) learn to distinguish between
humans and other large creatures who show up in front of it's tank who
don't feed it (like dogs or cats)?

- Logic316



Logic: n. The art of thinking and reasoning in strict accordance with
the limitations and incapacities of the human misunderstanding.
-- Ambrose Bierce

On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 22:40:20 -0400, Logic316 wrote:

NanK wrote:
Yes, they do! When they see you outside the tank, don't they wiggle
with anticipation of being fed???

n

Even the simplest organisms have some capacity for learning when it's
directly related to their survival. If a fish always sees a person when
it's being fed, it will associate the image of a person with food and
will exhibit feeding behavior every time it sees somebody, even before
any food is dropped in front of them.

Goo insists that no animals can anticipate, but that humans are
somehow projecting their emotions into the animals causing them
to behave in a way which gives the obvious appearance that they
are experiencing them themselves...most likely through voodoo or
something...it's bizarre, whatever it is.

In the wild and in captivity, this
ability to associate events ensures that the smartest fish gets to the
food faster than the dumb ones and is thus more likely to survive longer
to pass on it's "smart" genes.

I've explained to Goo that without the ability to anticipate, hawks
would starve to death. They wouldn't look for food if they didn't
anticipate finding it. That seemed as clear an example as I could
think of, but he still can't understand.

The only question I have, could such a fish (one having learned to
associate the presence of humans with food) learn to distinguish between
humans and other large creatures who show up in front of it's tank who
don't feed it (like dogs or cats)?

- Logic316

Most likely they can learn to avoid things as well as anticipate
getting food from them. Amusingly, Goo can understand that animals
feel fear and anger, but can't understand that they also feel pride,
anticipation and disappointment. It's amusing, but in an almost pitiable
way.

mid-post

dh@. wrote:
Goo insists that no animals can anticipate, but that humans are
somehow projecting their emotions into the animals causing them
to behave in a way which gives the obvious appearance that they
are experiencing them themselves...most likely through voodoo or
something...it's bizarre, whatever it is.

Perhaps he's referring to "anthropomorphism". Yes, people are often
guilty of attributing human qualities and motives to things that aren't
human. Just look at the Disney channel :-P


The only question I have, could such a fish (one having learned to
associate the presence of humans with food) learn to distinguish between
humans and other large creatures who show up in front of it's tank who
don't feed it (like dogs or cats)?

- Logic316


Most likely they can learn to avoid things as well as anticipate
getting food from them. Amusingly, Goo can understand that animals
feel fear and anger, but can't understand that they also feel pride,
anticipation and disappointment. It's amusing, but in an almost pitiable
way.

'Fear' and 'anger' are among the most primal of emotions, present even
in most lower lifeforms. These help ensure survival by allowing the
organism to either flee danger, or fight off threats to its food and
territory. 'Anticipation' is not an emotion; it's the condition of
merely having knowledge of an upcoming event, and acting on it. As for
'pride', that's a far more complex emotion which involves feeling
pleasure from knowing that you acquired, accomplished or succeeded at
something - which you definitely won't find in a fish. The closest
instinct you can find to that in a fish is simply territoriality and
aggression. As for 'disappointment', that's also a complex mammalian
emotion involving a feeling of dissatisfaction that results when one's
expectations are not realized. Again, I doubt a fish can feel that; if
it sees and tries to obtain food or a mate and it fails to do so, they
don't have the capacity to think about their loss - they just keep
trying and keep going about the business of survival.

- Logic316



"Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to
realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first."
-- Ronald Reagan

A GOOGLE search may direct you to the latest research where scientists
have actually taught flies to follow a particular flight pattern in
controlled experiments! And did you know that bees remove the legs on a
fellow worker bee that habitually returns "drunk" on fermented nector.

If you watch Animal Planet and Discovery, you have learned about the
complexity of elephants, dolphins, wolves, and many other animals and
insects. Recently, I saw a clip where an unhappy, aquarium-housed
octopus was given a Duplo (jumbo toy blocks) structure with
window-shaped holes, and the animal immediately perked up and
investigated the structure and its openings.

Wild birds have demonstrated uncanny abilities to figure out puzzles in
order to obtain a tasty morsel. Parrots can watch you unlock a cage,
and repeat your action. No training, no conditioning -- just brain power.

Many bored, lonely, anxious pets (birds, rats, cats, dogs, horses) and
zoo animals, i.e., pandas, marsupials, monkeys, develop behavior
problems when confined in inappropriate conditions. Experts constantly
seek to improve zoos and rescue facilities for this very reason. Rescue
groups anxiously rehabilitate and rehome orphaned animals according to
the needs of the species. (Did you catch the otters on "GROWING UP OTTER"?)

We assume a whole lot more than we should about the animals with whom we
share this planet. Perhaps our fish ARE capable of learning,
recognition, and feelings.

Who among us knows for sure?


n

On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 13:16:04 -0400, Logic316 wrote:

mid-post

dh@. wrote:
Goo insists that no animals can anticipate, but that humans are
somehow projecting their emotions into the animals causing them
to behave in a way which gives the obvious appearance that they
are experiencing them themselves...most likely through voodoo or
something...it's bizarre, whatever it is.

Perhaps he's referring to "anthropomorphism". Yes, people are often
guilty of attributing human qualities and motives to things that aren't
human. Just look at the Disney channel :-P

It can go either way...people can attribute too much to animals, but they
also can be ignorant of what animals are capable of. The latter is the case
with Goo. But. Goo does insist that a fantasy about a talking pig--an extreme
case of anthropomorphism written by one of his fellow "ARAs"--somehow
refutes the fact that some farm animals benefit from farming.

The only question I have, could such a fish (one having learned to
associate the presence of humans with food) learn to distinguish between
humans and other large creatures who show up in front of it's tank who
don't feed it (like dogs or cats)?

- Logic316


Most likely they can learn to avoid things as well as anticipate
getting food from them. Amusingly, Goo can understand that animals
feel fear and anger, but can't understand that they also feel pride,
anticipation and disappointment. It's amusing, but in an almost pitiable
way.

'Fear' and 'anger' are among the most primal of emotions, present even
in most lower lifeforms. These help ensure survival by allowing the
organism to either flee danger, or fight off threats to its food and
territory. 'Anticipation' is not an emotion; it's the condition of
merely having knowledge of an upcoming event, and acting on it. As for
'pride', that's a far more complex emotion which involves feeling
pleasure from knowing that you acquired, accomplished or succeeded at
something - which you definitely won't find in a fish. The closest
instinct you can find to that in a fish is simply territoriality and
aggression. As for 'disappointment', that's also a complex mammalian
emotion involving a feeling of dissatisfaction that results when one's
expectations are not realized. Again, I doubt a fish can feel that; if
it sees and tries to obtain food or a mate and it fails to do so, they
don't have the capacity to think about their loss - they just keep
trying and keep going about the business of survival.

- Logic316

That's probably the case with fish, but some animals do experience
disappointment even if fish don't. This is another area of Goo's extreme
ignorance. Here are a couple of his classic quotes:
__________________________________________________ _______
From: Rudy Canoza
Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 15:48:32 GMT

Animals do not experience pride or disappointment. Period.
[...]
No animals anticipate.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
His ignorance is so pure, that he doesn't even consider the possibility
that some animals are capable of experiencing things that other
animals are not capable of. That is very shallow "thinking", and in
many ways very primitive and animal like imo.

NanK wrote:
Yes, they do! When they see you outside the tank, don't they wiggle
with anticipation of being fed???

No. That's stimulus response, *not* anticipation.

On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 05:25:50 GMT, Rudy Canoza wrote:

NanK wrote:
Yes, they do! When they see you outside the tank, don't they wiggle
with anticipation of being fed???

No. That's stimulus response, *not* anticipation.

That stimulus response *is* anticipation Goo.

dh@. wrote:
On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 05:25:50 GMT, Rudy Canoza wrote:


NanK wrote:

Yes, they do! When they see you outside the tank, don't they wiggle
with anticipation of being fed???

No. That's stimulus response, *not* anticipation.


That stimulus response *is* anticipation Goo.

I would have to agree. "Anticipation" simply means sensing that an event
is going to occur. If somebody punches you a couple of times in the
face, you're naturally going to remember the pain and try to avoid his
hand next time you see it coming towards you - that's anticipation, and
it's done without using any abstract thought. But somewhere in that
fish's tiny brain there is a piece of data being stored which tells it
that there's going to be food when it sees the image of a person in
front of it's tank. This information was not genetically inherited from
it's parents, not will it pass it on through it's DNA to it's offspring,
so it can't be called instinct. It is, in fact, a memory - learned
information. It's a very primitive sort of learning, just barely above
the level of instinct, but learning nevertheless. But it does not imply
or require that the fish is consciously thinking or reflecting about
what it's doing.

- Logic316




"A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring
one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their
own pursuits of industry and improvement."
-- Thomas Jefferson, First Inaugural address - 1801