Fly Tying Question

I have a friend named Vincent (Vinny). Vinny just "graduated" from
high school. He is 20 yo. He received a "certificate of completion"
rather than a HS diploma. Vinny has an IQ of 70. He was born of an
alcoholic mother and father, and removed from them soon after his
birth. Surprizingly, he has fairly good motor skills (he's a whiz at
Quitar Hero!), and can learn - it just takes him a lot longer. He is
not spastic and has a steady hand and good eyes. His hearing is
somewhat diminished since birth.

Situation: Vinny has tried working in a supermarket bagging, and as a
bus boy at a local restaurant. He hates both of these jobs and thinks
they are beneath him. He wants, *needs*, a different vocation. He is
creative and capable of sovling puzzles (jigsaw, for example).

Questions: How difficult would it be to teach someone like Vinny to
tie flies? And, if he is successful at doing so, where could he sell
his creations? I realize that breaking in to such a market would be
tough for most, but I wonder if Vinny could tie and make a "get by
living" tying flies. He lives with his single adoptive mother who is
a professional woman and makes a fairly good living. The most
important thing is that he be accepted and have some worth. Right now
he is down on himself thinking that he has no real worth. I am
working with him and trying to change his attitude.

How does Umqua select their tyers? Orvis? If he can learn to tie,
and I believe he can, I know of several places that would accept his
flies, but only a few gross at a time. How does one break into the
professional fly tying community?

Dave
(Hoping there are no smart ass remarks posted)

On Sep 25, 8:27*am, Dave LaCourse wrote:
I have a friend named Vincent (Vinny). *Vinny just "graduated" from
high school. *He is 20 yo. *He received a "certificate of completion"
rather than a HS diploma. *Vinny has an IQ of 70. *He was born of an
alcoholic mother and father, and removed from them soon after his
birth. *Surprizingly, he has fairly good motor skills (he's a whiz at
Quitar Hero!), and can learn - it just takes him a lot longer. *He is
not spastic and has a steady hand and good eyes. *His hearing is
somewhat diminished since birth.

Situation: *Vinny has tried working in a supermarket bagging, and as a
bus boy at a local restaurant. *He hates both of these jobs and thinks
they are beneath him. *He wants, *needs*, a different vocation. *He is
creative and capable of sovling puzzles (jigsaw, for example). *

Questions: *How difficult would it be to teach someone like Vinny to
tie flies? *And, if he is successful at doing so, where could he sell
his creations? *I realize that breaking in to such a market would be
tough for most, but I wonder if Vinny could tie and make a "get by
living" tying flies. *He lives with his single adoptive mother who is
a professional woman and makes a fairly good living. *The most
important thing is that he be accepted and have some worth. *Right now
he is down on himself thinking that he has no real worth. *I am
working with him and trying to change his attitude.

How does Umqua select their tyers? *Orvis? *If he can learn to tie,
and I believe he can, I know of several places that would accept his
flies, but only a few gross at a time. *How does one break into the
professional fly tying community?

Dave
(Hoping there are no smart ass remarks posted)

Here at my school, the seniors have to do a Senior Project where they
get to do anything that they have ever wanted to explore, and they
must show how their HS education influenced their understanding of
their project. One of the seniors two years ago has Asperger's
Syndrome, which basically makes him incredibly awkward socially, and
oblivious to it. As you can imagine, someone with Asperger's faces a
tough future working in any capacity that involves interacting with
others.

This particular student chose as his project 'tying sal****er flies',
and asked me to be his mentor. He completely immersed himself in the
project, starting out with clousers and decievers, but soon he
branched out into developing his own flies based on researching what
fish eat, etc. He did extremely well on his project, but the long term
result is that he now only ties flies that he invents, and he puts a
lot of energy and thought into what properties a fly should have. I
mean, its over the top, but he regularly sends me samples of what he
is 'working on', and I field test them for him whenever I can. His
last batch of bass flies were astounding, and I was assessing whether
or not the clear ribbing made them more attractive than the light
green ribbing....I mean, he is that obsessive.

The moral of the story is; some day in the near future, we are all
going to be fishing with flies that this kid invented. He has found a
niche that he can fill, even with his personal challenges, and it will
work for him.

The other moral of the story: he'll never make any money at it. Thai
and Kenyan tyers will always dominate the market and underprice anyone
who ties for profit stateside. Sorry. But if its not about the money,
I'd say to teach him to tie.

--riverman

On Wed, 24 Sep 2008 19:46:44 -0700 (PDT), riverman
wrote:

wonderful story snipped

The other moral of the story: he'll never make any money at it. Thai
and Kenyan tyers will always dominate the market and underprice anyone
who ties for profit stateside. Sorry. But if its not about the money,
I'd say to teach him to tie.

Lakewood buys its flies from a local tyer, so there is a market out
there, albeit small. I'll see Vinny this week-end and will begin to
teach him to tie if he wants to. If he shows some promise, I'll
continue.

Thanks for your insight, Myron.

Dave

"riverman" wrote in message
...
On Sep 25, 8:27 am, Dave LaCourse wrote:
I have a friend named Vincent (Vinny). Vinny just "graduated" from
high school. He is 20 yo. He received a "certificate of completion"
rather than a HS diploma. Vinny has an IQ of 70. He was born of an
alcoholic mother and father, and removed from them soon after his
birth. Surprizingly, he has fairly good motor skills (he's a whiz at
Quitar Hero!), and can learn - it just takes him a lot longer. He is
not spastic and has a steady hand and good eyes. His hearing is
somewhat diminished since birth.

Situation: Vinny has tried working in a supermarket bagging, and as a
bus boy at a local restaurant. He hates both of these jobs and thinks
they are beneath him. He wants, *needs*, a different vocation. He is
creative and capable of sovling puzzles (jigsaw, for example).

Questions: How difficult would it be to teach someone like Vinny to
tie flies? And, if he is successful at doing so, where could he sell
his creations? I realize that breaking in to such a market would be
tough for most, but I wonder if Vinny could tie and make a "get by
living" tying flies. He lives with his single adoptive mother who is
a professional woman and makes a fairly good living. The most
important thing is that he be accepted and have some worth. Right now
he is down on himself thinking that he has no real worth. I am
working with him and trying to change his attitude.

How does Umqua select their tyers? Orvis? If he can learn to tie,
and I believe he can, I know of several places that would accept his
flies, but only a few gross at a time. How does one break into the
professional fly tying community?

Dave
(Hoping there are no smart ass remarks posted)

Here at my school, the seniors have to do a Senior Project where they
get to do anything that they have ever wanted to explore, and they
must show how their HS education influenced their understanding of
their project. One of the seniors two years ago has Asperger's
Syndrome, which basically makes him incredibly awkward socially, and
oblivious to it. As you can imagine, someone with Asperger's faces a
tough future working in any capacity that involves interacting with
others.

This particular student chose as his project 'tying sal****er flies',
and asked me to be his mentor. He completely immersed himself in the
project, starting out with clousers and decievers, but soon he
branched out into developing his own flies based on researching what
fish eat, etc. He did extremely well on his project, but the long term
result is that he now only ties flies that he invents, and he puts a
lot of energy and thought into what properties a fly should have. I
mean, its over the top, but he regularly sends me samples of what he
is 'working on', and I field test them for him whenever I can. His
last batch of bass flies were astounding, and I was assessing whether
or not the clear ribbing made them more attractive than the light
green ribbing....I mean, he is that obsessive.

The moral of the story is; some day in the near future, we are all
going to be fishing with flies that this kid invented. He has found a
niche that he can fill, even with his personal challenges, and it will
work for him.

The other moral of the story: he'll never make any money at it. Thai
and Kenyan tyers will always dominate the market and underprice anyone
who ties for profit stateside. Sorry. But if its not about the money,
I'd say to teach him to tie.

--riverman

Much as I applaud the lad for his efforts tying to that level is always
going to be a labour of love. I have flies tied by Derek Bradbury that
are too good to put in the water ( I haven't bought a fly in many years)
olive pre-emerger buzzers with wing stubs that need a magnifying glass to
appreciate. I did try one and for sure it caught fish but then my own basic
pattern PTN and silver ribbed buzzers did equally well and there is the rub
its more than satifying to produce a fly that is indistinguishable from the
real
insect but trout sadly are not that discerning and the busy or less talented
angler just wants something that will catch. I did a spell of semi-pro tying
in the 80's but I could never have made a living at it after the first few
thousand flys ( mainly lures) I had done more than enough so I pointed
the tackle shop towards imported because at the selling price that was the
only way they could make a living.
Derek

"Dave LaCourse" wrote in message
...

snipped, but noted
David, the comments Umpqua and other large-scale operations and overseas
tying shops is accurate. However, local shops in most 'fishy' locations
rely, as you note, on locals to tie the local specialities. Therefore, after
instuction on the basics, and a level of mastery being achieved, you should
aim Vinnie(if the interest is still there), toward tying local Maine
specials. Mind you, he will have to tie a lot, at a good price, to generate
any significant income, as the shops sometimes pay far above the base rates,
but still, figure on about $0.80/fly profit after materials.
Frank's point, regarding personal, unique, specialities is well taken, but
usually pretty far down the experience path, IMHO.
I hope this helps some......
Tom

On Thu, 25 Sep 2008 13:17:28 GMT, "Tom Littleton"
wrote:

I hope this helps some......

You never fail to help, Tom. Thanks.

Dave

On Wed, 24 Sep 2008 20:27:29 -0400, Dave LaCourse
wrote:

but I wonder if Vinny could tie and make a "get by
living" tying flies.
Dave
(Hoping there are no smart ass remarks posted)


Doing the math will be sobering. In round numbers at $10.00 a dozen,
which in real terms is over market, Vinny would need to build 2500 dz
to make 25k. Assuming he sits for an 8 hour plus day, 5 days a week,
he would need to average about 1.5 dozen an hour to crack that nut.
Many think ...that's all?... I can do that, what's the big?....my
suggestion would be then, sit down and tye as many princes you can in
one day... then get up the next day and do it again for 8 hours...if
after 5 days if you still have the fire...you have a chance of making
the 25k. I tied for supplemental monies ( sons college) and gear for
over 10 years, my last order was a mixed bag of 1700 dozen...I
finished it but it took all the "spare" time I had for over a year and
soured me on doing anything remotely close again. Being able to tye
the bug is one thing but to do it for weeks on end is another thing
altogether.

harry

PS...still no killer caddis...sorry

wrote in message
...

absolute truth in your remarks, Harry. I still tie a couple bulk orders half
for the challenge, and half as favors to the buyers involved, but sitting
for two 5 hour stretches a day, tying the same few bugs, gets rather dull.
Tom

On Thu, 25 Sep 2008 10:23:12 -0700, wrote:

Doing the math will be sobering. In round numbers at $10.00 a dozen,
which in real terms is over market, Vinny would need to build 2500 dz
to make 25k. Assuming he sits for an 8 hour plus day, 5 days a week,
he would need to average about 1.5 dozen an hour to crack that nut.
Many think ...that's all?... I can do that, what's the big?....my
suggestion would be then, sit down and tye as many princes you can in
one day... then get up the next day and do it again for 8 hours...if
after 5 days if you still have the fire...you have a chance of making
the 25k. I tied for supplemental monies ( sons college) and gear for
over 10 years, my last order was a mixed bag of 1700 dozen...I
finished it but it took all the "spare" time I had for over a year and
soured me on doing anything remotely close again. Being able to tye
the bug is one thing but to do it for weeks on end is another thing
altogether.

harry

I have considered all of that, Harry. I doubt he would become that
"successful". He does need a jolt of self respect mostly. He is down
because he isn't able to perform like other kids his age. It is
finally dawning on him. I am thinking that if he can make some money
on his own like tying flies that he will be happier. We'll see.
Thanks for the insight.

PS...still no killer caddis...sorry

You better get 'em to me, quick, or I'll have Vinny tying them for me.
d;o)

Won't need them until spring, anyway. Thanks for remembering.

Dave

On Thu, 25 Sep 2008 16:14:54 -0400, Dave LaCourse
wrote:

On Thu, 25 Sep 2008 10:23:12 -0700, wrote:

Doing the math will be sobering. In round numbers at $10.00 a dozen,
which in real terms is over market, Vinny would need to build 2500 dz
to make 25k. Assuming he sits for an 8 hour plus day, 5 days a week,
he would need to average about 1.5 dozen an hour to crack that nut.
Many think ...that's all?... I can do that, what's the big?....my
suggestion would be then, sit down and tye as many princes you can in
one day... then get up the next day and do it again for 8 hours...if
after 5 days if you still have the fire...you have a chance of making
the 25k. I tied for supplemental monies ( sons college) and gear for
over 10 years, my last order was a mixed bag of 1700 dozen...I
finished it but it took all the "spare" time I had for over a year and
soured me on doing anything remotely close again. Being able to tye
the bug is one thing but to do it for weeks on end is another thing
altogether.

harry

I have considered all of that, Harry. I doubt he would become that
"successful". He does need a jolt of self respect mostly. He is down
because he isn't able to perform like other kids his age. It is
finally dawning on him. I am thinking that if he can make some money
on his own like tying flies that he will be happier. We'll see.
Thanks for the insight.

PS...still no killer caddis...sorry

You better get 'em to me, quick, or I'll have Vinny tying them for me.
d;o)

Won't need them until spring, anyway. Thanks for remembering.

Dave



I know of one shop owner around here who would pay some of the
students in his classes to tye some patterns for his boxes. Obviously
these flies where not size 20 No Hackles but rather buggers and hares
ears and the like. Worked out very well for both parties and the
flies were of good quality. Maybe someone in your area does or would
do something similar?