Fly Tying Question

"riverman" wrote in message
...
On Sep 25, 8:27 am, Dave LaCourse wrote:
I have a friend named Vincent (Vinny). Vinny just "graduated" from
high school. He is 20 yo. He received a "certificate of completion"
rather than a HS diploma. Vinny has an IQ of 70. He was born of an
alcoholic mother and father, and removed from them soon after his
birth. Surprizingly, he has fairly good motor skills (he's a whiz at
Quitar Hero!), and can learn - it just takes him a lot longer. He is
not spastic and has a steady hand and good eyes. His hearing is
somewhat diminished since birth.

Situation: Vinny has tried working in a supermarket bagging, and as a
bus boy at a local restaurant. He hates both of these jobs and thinks
they are beneath him. He wants, *needs*, a different vocation. He is
creative and capable of sovling puzzles (jigsaw, for example).

Questions: How difficult would it be to teach someone like Vinny to
tie flies? And, if he is successful at doing so, where could he sell
his creations? I realize that breaking in to such a market would be
tough for most, but I wonder if Vinny could tie and make a "get by
living" tying flies. He lives with his single adoptive mother who is
a professional woman and makes a fairly good living. The most
important thing is that he be accepted and have some worth. Right now
he is down on himself thinking that he has no real worth. I am
working with him and trying to change his attitude.

How does Umqua select their tyers? Orvis? If he can learn to tie,
and I believe he can, I know of several places that would accept his
flies, but only a few gross at a time. How does one break into the
professional fly tying community?

Dave
(Hoping there are no smart ass remarks posted)

Here at my school, the seniors have to do a Senior Project where they
get to do anything that they have ever wanted to explore, and they
must show how their HS education influenced their understanding of
their project. One of the seniors two years ago has Asperger's
Syndrome, which basically makes him incredibly awkward socially, and
oblivious to it. As you can imagine, someone with Asperger's faces a
tough future working in any capacity that involves interacting with
others.

This particular student chose as his project 'tying sal****er flies',
and asked me to be his mentor. He completely immersed himself in the
project, starting out with clousers and decievers, but soon he
branched out into developing his own flies based on researching what
fish eat, etc. He did extremely well on his project, but the long term
result is that he now only ties flies that he invents, and he puts a
lot of energy and thought into what properties a fly should have. I
mean, its over the top, but he regularly sends me samples of what he
is 'working on', and I field test them for him whenever I can. His
last batch of bass flies were astounding, and I was assessing whether
or not the clear ribbing made them more attractive than the light
green ribbing....I mean, he is that obsessive.

The moral of the story is; some day in the near future, we are all
going to be fishing with flies that this kid invented. He has found a
niche that he can fill, even with his personal challenges, and it will
work for him.

The other moral of the story: he'll never make any money at it. Thai
and Kenyan tyers will always dominate the market and underprice anyone
who ties for profit stateside. Sorry. But if its not about the money,
I'd say to teach him to tie.

--riverman

Much as I applaud the lad for his efforts tying to that level is always
going to be a labour of love. I have flies tied by Derek Bradbury that
are too good to put in the water ( I haven't bought a fly in many years)
olive pre-emerger buzzers with wing stubs that need a magnifying glass to
appreciate. I did try one and for sure it caught fish but then my own basic
pattern PTN and silver ribbed buzzers did equally well and there is the rub
its more than satifying to produce a fly that is indistinguishable from the
real
insect but trout sadly are not that discerning and the busy or less talented
angler just wants something that will catch. I did a spell of semi-pro tying
in the 80's but I could never have made a living at it after the first few
thousand flys ( mainly lures) I had done more than enough so I pointed
the tackle shop towards imported because at the selling price that was the
only way they could make a living.
Derek

wrote in message
...
On Wed, 24 Sep 2008 20:27:29 -0400, Dave LaCourse
wrote:

but I wonder if Vinny could tie and make a "get by
living" tying flies.
Dave
(Hoping there are no smart ass remarks posted)

Being able to tye
the bug is one thing but to do it for weeks on end is another thing
altogether.

As a kid in my early teens, I spent a summer in Livingston, MT. with family
friends. I spent many a days staring at the walls in Dan Bailey's fly shop,
looking at all the mounts and reading the plaques with outlined fish that
were huge... I would regularly stand outside looking though the windows and
watch the dozen or more ladies tying flies. As a kid, I thought to myself,
wow, I like tying flies but I could never site their for hours every day
tying!

I suppose those days of ladies tying are gone? I haven't been to Livingston
in 25 plus years....

JT

"riverman" wrote


I know I get antsy just tying a dozen flies for a swap. I could not
imagine 9 hours a day, 5 days a week, 4 weeks a month,


I've had discussions about this with 3 different "famous" tiers ... each one
a highly intelligent individual ( mentioned because it seems to me that as
such they should be more prone to boredom?? ... mental repetitive stress
syndrome )

They all mentioned simply getting into "a different space" ( or similar
wording ) when tying and suffering little boredom.


I found that a big surprise..



FWIW, I also suggested to each that they try "sets" of flies packaged in a
fancy box and sold as "original TierNameHere flies" for an increased price,
rather than just adding to a shop's bin. None thought the idea worth
considering and that the market was for flies to catch fish not collect ...
another surprise, to me, .... even though I've never considered collecting
flies I assumed others did.

On Sep 25, 12:23*pm, wrote:
On Wed, 24 Sep 2008 20:27:29 -0400, Dave LaCourse

wrote:
but I wonder if Vinny could tie and make a "get by
living" tying flies.
Dave
(Hoping there are no smart ass remarks posted)

* Doing the math will be sobering. In round numbers at $10.00 a dozen,
which in real terms is over market, Vinny would need to build 2500 dz
to make 25k. Assuming he sits for an 8 hour plus day, 5 days a week,
he would need to average about 1.5 dozen an hour to crack that nut.
Many think ...that's all?... I can do that, what's the big?....my
suggestion would be then, sit down and tye as many princes you can in
one day... then get up the next day and do it again for 8 hours...if
after 5 days if you still have the fire...you have a chance of making
the 25k. I tied for supplemental *monies ( sons college) and gear for
over 10 years, my last order was a mixed bag of 1700 dozen...I
finished it but it took all the "spare" time I had for over a year and
soured me on doing anything remotely close again. Being able to tye
the bug is one thing but to do it for weeks on end is another thing
altogether.

harry

PS...still no killer caddis...sorry

By the way, this kind of math is viewed in the eyes of someone making
a significant amount more than Vinny needs. I know my brother and
sister both subsist on about 600 bucks a month from Social Security.
Yes, I help out and they earn a little bit of pocket money doing odd
jobs for other folks (pet sitting, cleaning out barns, mowing, making
planters), but the most either of them has made in a year with a "real
job" is 11K. For them, that was flush.
Vinny will probably have subsidised housing and other support (SSI),
he just needs some extra cash to make it through the winter.
Frank Reid

"Larry L" wrote in message
...

"riverman" wrote


I know I get antsy just tying a dozen flies for a swap. I could not
imagine 9 hours a day, 5 days a week, 4 weeks a month,


I've had discussions about this with 3 different "famous" tiers ... each
one
a highly intelligent individual ( mentioned because it seems to me that
as
such they should be more prone to boredom?? ... mental repetitive stress
syndrome )

They all mentioned simply getting into "a different space" ( or similar
wording ) when tying and suffering little boredom.


I found that a big surprise..



FWIW, I also suggested to each that they try "sets" of flies packaged in a
fancy box and sold as "original TierNameHere flies" for an increased
price,
rather than just adding to a shop's bin. None thought the idea worth
considering and that the market was for flies to catch fish not collect
...
another surprise, to me, .... even though I've never considered collecting
flies I assumed others did.




As an alternative why not suggest framed display sets I did a number back
in the eighties and they were quite popular and the markup makes it more
worthwhile at least till the Kenyans get in on the act. Coming towards
Christmas they are a very fine present and in demand once word gets around
http://preview.tinyurl.com/4hreyq
Derek

On Tue, 30 Sep 2008 06:03:43 -0700 (PDT), Frank Reid
wrote:

Vinny will probably have subsidised housing and other support (SSI),
he just needs some extra cash to make it through the winter.

Everyone says, "It's not the money." And it is not so much the money
as it is self-worth. Vinny's mom (and Jo and I) will make sure he
never ends up on the street. We all need love, and we all need to
know that we matter. Vinny has the love, in spades! He needs to know
that he has worth to someone besides those who love him.

Tried to teach him some very basics at the bench the other day.
Things didn't go too well. His attention wandered. I haven't given
up, however.

Dave