TR Cascade River

First time fishing this year. Two weeks off was hard to take, but I
spent some of the time skiing, and some building a new 10wt rod mostly
for pike and sal****er use. I had to try the new rod, so I drove up to
the Cascade river looking for steelhead or dollies. The steelhead
didn't cooperate, but a nice 21 inch Dolly did. I've posted a picture
on abpf, and on my website at:
http://home.comcast.net/~chas.wade/w...D-1257387.html

This fish didn't put up much fight, a fairly common result with
dollies, but the water was 35 degrees or so. I wonder if cold
temperatures are as hard on the fish as hot temperatures. Anybody know?

It turns out that the rains we had a couple months ago moved the river
north a bit, and not much water is in the section that's right in front
of the hatchery. Fishermen have kept a few hundred steelies there this
year, but the hatchery has only taken 28 fish with only 3 of those
being hens. There are 3 large plastic fish holders on the bank for
fishermen who catch hatchery hens to put their fish in and set in the
river so the game department can get their quota of hens. One of the
guys I talked to on the river said that he's seen one fish given to the
hatchery this way. I've never seen anything like this, but I hope it
works, and I'd give them my hen if I caught one.

Chas
remove fly fish to reply
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San Juan Pictures at:
http://home.comcast.net/~chasepike/wsb/index.html

Chas,

I don't know it for a fact but in presentations by biologists my is
impression that winter is indeed stressful for resident brown and brook
trout in my local streams. How stressful probably varies from year to year
and from stream to stream. For example, intuitively I would think that
trout in spring creeks might withstand winter better than trout in freestone
rivers because of the availability of food and more constant temperatures.
I believe that very severe winters that result in anchor ice formation are
deadly. A report that sticks in my mind was a radio-tracking experiment on
brown trout in a local stream. The loss in body mass from fall to spring
was very high, double digit percentages - don't quote me on this but it
might have been of the order of 20-30%. I am not sure of the significance
of the result because the sample size was very small and it was only for one
winter in one stream. I am not sure how fishing regulations were developed
over the years but it seems to me that closed trout seasons, while probably
intended primarily to protect spawning fish, probably also serve to protect
them during a period when they are most highly vulnerable.

Yuji Sakuma

================================================== ===============
"Chas Wade" wrote in message
news:1isMb.28770$Rc4.118871@attbi_s54...

This fish didn't put up much fight, a fairly common result with
dollies, but the water was 35 degrees or so. I wonder if cold
temperatures are as hard on the fish as hot temperatures. Anybody know?

Chas
remove fly fish to reply
http://home.comcast.net/~chas.wade/w...ome.html-.html
San Juan Pictures at:
http://home.comcast.net/~chasepike/wsb/index.html

Nice fish Chas. Great Picture.

bruce h

Yuji Sakuma wrote:

Chas,

I don't know it for a fact but in presentations by biologists my is
impression that winter is indeed stressful for resident brown and brook
trout in my local streams. How stressful probably varies from year to year
and from stream to stream. For example, intuitively I would think that
trout in spring creeks might withstand winter better than trout in freestone
rivers because of the availability of food and more constant temperatures.
I believe that very severe winters that result in anchor ice formation are
deadly. A report that sticks in my mind was a radio-tracking experiment on
brown trout in a local stream. The loss in body mass from fall to spring
was very high, double digit percentages - don't quote me on this but it
might have been of the order of 20-30%. I am not sure of the significance
of the result because the sample size was very small and it was only for one
winter in one stream. I am not sure how fishing regulations were developed
over the years but it seems to me that closed trout seasons, while probably
intended primarily to protect spawning fish, probably also serve to protect
them during a period when they are most highly vulnerable.


I'm pretty sure that catching fish at low water temps is less stressful
than at high ones. (I'll see if I have any info on that)

However, like you state, Winter can be tough on the fish. In streams and
rivers, if anchor ice forms, there can be significant loss. Overall,
although there is weight loss during the Winter, trout deal just fine
with low water temps. The trout have evolved to be able to handle it.
Shallow lakes do often fish kill during the Winter, but this is do to
oxygen depletion and not temperatures that are too low. There are some
sections of tailwaters where the temps "never" get out of the forties
and the fish populations are high and the trout prosper.

Higher water temps are generally the limiting factor in where trout can
survive. As a river flows downstream, average temps generally rise until
they reach the point where the trout can't survive. Today, most of the
trout water that has been lost has been due to increased water temps
caused by changes that man has made. Some of these things a removing
water for for irrigation so water temps rise more easily, the removal
of tree cover, etc.

Willi

Hello Willi,

Around here, people are voluntarily choosing not to fish on vulnerable local
streams if the water gets too low and the temperature rises too much in
mid-summer. We also have a tailwater fishery which can be fished all summer
without compunction. Our closed season is from the end of September until
nearly the end of April, almost seven months, but even if it were open all
year, I personally would be inclined to leave them alone during spawning
season and in deep winter. I would like to be able to start earlier in the
spring though, weather permitting. A trout's weight loss over the cold
months is I believe, natural and not something to be overly concerned about;
it is probably analagous to a bear's weight loss during hibernation. Its
metabolism no doubt slows as the temperature drops and consequently it does
not feed as actively, even if food is abundant. If so, they are probably
harder to catch and not as much fun to catch anyway. Fishing in winter will
not do an individual trout any good because of the extra stress during a
stressful time but it probably will not do much harm on a population wide
basis - I reckon the fishing pressure would be minimal from October to March
and few fish would get caught anyway. There might be an additional reason
not to fish in late fall though - extensive wading could possibly disturb
redds.

Best regards,

Yuji Sakuma

================================================== ==
"Willi" wrote in message
...


I'm pretty sure that catching fish at low water temps is less stressful
than at high ones. (I'll see if I have any info on that)

However, like you state, Winter can be tough on the fish. In streams and
rivers, if anchor ice forms, there can be significant loss. Overall,
although there is weight loss during the Winter, trout deal just fine
with low water temps. The trout have evolved to be able to handle it.
Shallow lakes do often fish kill during the Winter, but this is do to
oxygen depletion and not temperatures that are too low. There are some
sections of tailwaters where the temps "never" get out of the forties
and the fish populations are high and the trout prosper.

Higher water temps are generally the limiting factor in where trout can
survive. As a river flows downstream, average temps generally rise until
they reach the point where the trout can't survive. Today, most of the
trout water that has been lost has been due to increased water temps
caused by changes that man has made. Some of these things a removing
water for for irrigation so water temps rise more easily, the removal
of tree cover, etc.

Willi

Willi wrote in message ...

Higher water temps are generally the limiting factor in where trout can
survive. As a river flows downstream, average temps generally rise until
they reach the point where the trout can't survive.

Willi, have you ever explored downstream to see if trout move down at
different seasons? I could imagine that trout move down in winter (if
there's enough water) and maybe back again when it gets too warm. You've
talked here before about daily migrations of a hundred yards, but are
there seasonal migrations on the order of miles?

I could also imagine that in high-runoff years, quite a few trout may
find themselves (either "purposefully" in their pea-brains or accidentally)
quite a ways downstream, and not really make an effort to move back up
as the water warms. This could be an opportunity to harvest some decent
trout that would otherwise perish anyways. Maybe in the few weeks after
runoff and before the water really starts warming up.

Jon.

I guess it should be noted that you live near streams that make a
fairly abrupt change from good trout water to uninhabitable, with
a fairly short amount of "marginal" habitat. In other areas of the
country, this situation may be uncommon (I'm guessing).

"Yuji Sakuma" wrote:
Chas,

I don't know it for a fact but in presentations by biologists my is
impression that winter is indeed stressful for resident brown and brook
trout in my local streams. How stressful probably varies from year to
year
and from stream to stream. For example, intuitively I would think that
trout in spring creeks might withstand winter better than trout in
freestone
rivers because of the availability of food and more constant
temperatures.
I believe that very severe winters that result in anchor ice formation
are
deadly. A report that sticks in my mind was a radio-tracking
experiment on
brown trout in a local stream. The loss in body mass from fall to
spring
was very high, double digit percentages - don't quote me on this but it
might have been of the order of 20-30%. I am not sure of the
significance
of the result because the sample size was very small and it was only
for one
winter in one stream. I am not sure how fishing regulations were
developed
over the years but it seems to me that closed trout seasons, while
probably
intended primarily to protect spawning fish, probably also serve to
protect
them during a period when they are most highly vulnerable.

Yuji Sakuma

I know about that kind of stress, and I'm pretty sure it's no more of a
problem than an Atkins diet. The question is how the fish recover from
a fight when the water is very cold. Dolly Varden need very cold water
to spawn, 37 degrees if I remember correctly, so I suspect they're
little effected by the cold.

I agree about your later comment, we certainly need to be aware of
redds and avoid trampling them any time of year.

Thanks,

Chas
remove fly fish to reply
http://home.comcast.net/~chas.wade/w...ome.html-.html
San Juan Pictures at:
http://home.comcast.net/~chasepike/wsb/index.html

Jonathan Cook wrote:

Willi wrote in message ...

Higher water temps are generally the limiting factor in where trout can
survive. As a river flows downstream, average temps generally rise until
they reach the point where the trout can't survive.


Willi, have you ever explored downstream to see if trout move down at
different seasons? I could imagine that trout move down in winter (if
there's enough water) and maybe back again when it gets too warm. You've
talked here before about daily migrations of a hundred yards, but are
there seasonal migrations on the order of miles?

I've never read anything about that except for some reports from the
East where the trout will migrate in the Summer to spring heads to get
relief from the rising temps. I don't know how far they go.

From what I've read, in some Yellowstone rivers, the trout migrate in
and out of certain areas.

Locally what I've observed is that they "hole up" during either high or
low temps. During these low flow periods, I can clearly see the bottom
of all but the very deepest pools and not see a fish. An influx of water
or a moderation in temps will bring them out.



I could also imagine that in high-runoff years, quite a few trout may
find themselves (either "purposefully" in their pea-brains or accidentally)
quite a ways downstream, and not really make an effort to move back up
as the water warms. This could be an opportunity to harvest some decent
trout that would otherwise perish anyways. Maybe in the few weeks after
runoff and before the water really starts warming up.


I think that since they evolved with runoff, they've adapted well to it.
I'm sure there's some fish that end up like you describe. One of the
things they do locally is run up irrigation canals during runoff, but
when the water recedes some of them will get stuck. A few of them find
spots that consistently hold enough water so they can live there. In the
irrigation canal that borders my property, there's a big brown that
lives under the bridge that's been there several years, even though
flows in the Summer can be almost like bathwater.



I guess it should be noted that you live near streams that make a
fairly abrupt change from good trout water to uninhabitable, with
a fairly short amount of "marginal" habitat. In other areas of the
country, this situation may be uncommon (I'm guessing).


I think many streams and rivers share this at some point. They flow from
elevation which keeps them cool enough to support trout, but as they
descend they reach an area where the water becomes too warm to support
them.

Willi

Yuji Sakuma wrote:

Hello Willi,

Around here, people are voluntarily choosing not to fish on vulnerable local
streams if the water gets too low and the temperature rises too much in
mid-summer. We also have a tailwater fishery which can be fished all summer
without compunction. Our closed season is from the end of September until
nearly the end of April, almost seven months, but even if it were open all
year, I personally would be inclined to leave them alone during spawning
season and in deep winter. I would like to be able to start earlier in the
spring though, weather permitting. A trout's weight loss over the cold
months is I believe, natural and not something to be overly concerned about;
it is probably analagous to a bear's weight loss during hibernation. Its
metabolism no doubt slows as the temperature drops and consequently it does
not feed as actively, even if food is abundant. If so, they are probably
harder to catch and not as much fun to catch anyway.

Most (all) of the Rocky Mountain states have no closed seasons (except
for some specific streams and rivers). Winter does produce some midge
hatches and you can even sometimes catch fish ontop. When the water
temps are very cold, the fish are what I call, "ice cube trout" and
aren't fun to catch. Most of the Winter fishing, at least in CO, are
tailwaters whose temps stay moderate. There the fish feed "normally" all
Winter.

I've never caught a trout during cold water temps that needed any
revival before releasing, but I have during "prime" times. I think
closing streams and rivers when the temps get too high would do more for
the fishery than closing them in the Winter.


Fishing in winter will
not do an individual trout any good


I don't think it ever does an individual trout any good!


because of the extra stress during a
stressful time but it probably will not do much harm on a population wide
basis - I reckon the fishing pressure would be minimal from October to March
and few fish would get caught anyway. There might be an additional reason
not to fish in late fall though - extensive wading could possibly disturb
redds.


I agree with this because it makes sense. However, the studies I've read
comparing populations on streams when they were closed during spawning
compared to when they were open, showed no difference. The redds of
Browns and Brookies are pretty easy to spot and avoid because they are
Fall spawners and during that time flows are low. The redds of Rainbows
and Cutts are often difficult to see because of the higher flows in the
Spring.

Willi

Willi,

In another post in this thread, I referred to a radio tracking study of
brown trout on a local stream which showed that trout lose considerable
weight over the winter, (at least in the experiment). I do not have a
report, only recollection of a preliminary verbal presentation of findings.
Among the discoveries was that trout do move around, some moving
considerable distances, 8-10 kms, others not as much.

Radio tracking is glamorous and consequently is somewhat of a fad among
field biologists working on almost every species imaginable these days. Some
aspects of it on some species bothers me. For instance, I was disturbed by
tracking experiments on endangered sea turtles; even to my untrained eye the
particular transmitter used had to have affected the hydrodynamics of the
creature. Most researchers never recover their specimens but I recall
reading of one team that did and found their specimen wasted and about to
die, presumably because of an inability to swim normally and feed. The lead
scientist chose to end his program at that point because of that. In the
case of trout in my home river, there was a very high mortality of the
specimens for reasons that apparently could not be identified. My suspicion
is that the fish might have been very highly stressed not by the transmitter
itself but by the procedure to install it. The fish are out of the water
for 5-10 minutes during which time they are only doused with water laced
with a disinfectant. This is inconsistent with the preachings of other
biologists who advise anglers to release their catch as quickly as
possible - I am surprised that any survived at all. However, in the case of
fairly abundant species such as trout, I suppose sacrificing a few to find
information to save many is a worthwhile trade off.

Yuji Sakuma

================================================== =======
"Willi" wrote in message
...


Jonathan Cook wrote:

Willi wrote in message
...