Tappered leaders and tippet material

"Wolfgang" wrote in message
...

"riverman" wrote in message
...

I fish mostly a 8.5 foot 4wt, medium rod, and I do not have a
particularly powerful foreward cast. As a result, a typical 12 foot 5x
leader is a bit long for me, and doesn't really turn over well until I've
lost about 18 inches off the end. At that point, its like a guitar that
has been tuned: my casts become very precise and easy, the leader turns
over sweetly, and I can drop dry flies within a few inches of where I am
aiming, even at long distances.

Then, as I conitinue to change flies and the leader shortens another foot
or so, the whole thing slips back out of 'tune'....I start getting
windknots, or unintentional dumpcasts (where the leader lands in a spiral
around the fly), or the dry fly hits too hard. Then, I add another 2 feet
of tippet, and the whole thing starts to feel great again.

I don't know that there's anything "typical" about a 12 foot store bought
leader. I'm not sure I've ever seen one.


I'm not sure I have either g. The moment I hit send, I thought "did I say
12 foot?" I use 9 foot leaders, usually 4x or 5x trout tapers.

You might want to consider buying 9 foot leaders, or even 7 1/2, and then
tying on as much material as you need for the conditions at hand.

Oh, and I strongly suggest that you change tippet long before it gets down
to 10 inches.......it's real tough to get a good drift with anything that
short. Opinions on what is best will vary, but I never use less than 24
inches when I'm serious about trying to catch fish on dry flies.

I'll try your advice out, Wolfgang. I always hate to cut off all that clean
leader, but I should consider that the knot could quite easily be putting
off fish, and a shorter length does affect the drift. A lot depends on what
thickness the end of the leader is: if its a 5x leader with a foot or so of
original end still on it, and I'm using a 5x tippet, I'll fish it until the
tippet is down quite a bit. If its a 3x or 4x leader with a 5x tippet, I'll
change tippet (or tie on another section of 5x or 6x) when it gets down to
about 18 or 20 inches. But I'll start experimenting with longer tippets.

I do find that, over time, the leader-tippet setup develops its own
character. I have some setups that just seem to work better than others,
from a combination of kinks, old windknots and varying lengths of tippet.
They become a lot like hand-tied leaders, and I get 'attached' to some and
actually feel a pang of remorse when I have to cut them off. But then
there's that little thrill of satisfaction when I get to rip open a
brand-new package. :-)

A question of my own: I always go down 2 numbers when tying on tippet: I'll
start with a 3x leader, then tie on a 5x, and then maybe a 7x. Or I'll start
with a 4x, and tie on a 6x. Or I'll go 5x-7x. Is this standard?

--riverman

"riverman" wrote in message
...

A question of my own: I always go down 2 numbers when tying on tippet:
I'll start with a 3x leader, then tie on a 5x, and then maybe a 7x. Or
I'll start with a 4x, and tie on a 6x. Or I'll go 5x-7x. Is this standard?

--riverman

http://www.activeangler.com/articles...r/tippets2.asp

Typical
Tippet Diameters

Tippet
Diameter

0x .011"
1x .010"
2x .009"
3x .008"
4x .007"
5x .006"
6x .005"
7x .004"
8x .003"



Tapered Leader
Recipe
(12', 5x for trout)

Length
Diameter

36" .021"
24" .019"
16" .017"
12" .015"
7" .013"
7" .011"
7" .009"
7" .008"
28" .006"



Apparently, Orvis thinks so.

Mark

"riverman" wrote in message
...

I'll try your advice out, Wolfgang. I always hate to cut off all that
clean leader, but I should consider that the knot could quite easily be
putting off fish, and a shorter length does affect the drift. A lot
depends on what thickness the end of the leader is: if its a 5x leader
with a foot or so of original end still on it, and I'm using a 5x tippet,
I'll fish it until the tippet is down quite a bit. If its a 3x or 4x
leader with a 5x tippet, I'll change tippet (or tie on another section of
5x or 6x) when it gets down to about 18 or 20 inches. But I'll start
experimenting with longer tippets.

I do find that, over time, the leader-tippet setup develops its own
character. I have some setups that just seem to work better than others,
from a combination of kinks, old windknots and varying lengths of tippet.
They become a lot like hand-tied leaders, and I get 'attached' to some and
actually feel a pang of remorse when I have to cut them off. But then
there's that little thrill of satisfaction when I get to rip open a
brand-new package. :-)

A question of my own: I always go down 2 numbers when tying on tippet:
I'll start with a 3x leader, then tie on a 5x, and then maybe a 7x. Or
I'll start with a 4x, and tie on a 6x. Or I'll go 5x-7x. Is this standard?

I don't believe there is any meaningful standard. I think your second
paragraph above goes to the heart of the matter. You experiment until you
find an arrangement you find satisfactory. In my own case this has resulted
in ever decreasing reliance on knotless tapered leaders; they just don't do
anything very well. I do still occasionally use them because I'm too lazy
to keep myself supplied with hand tied leaders. When I do resort to them, I
always lop off a couple of feet at the tippet end and rebuild from there.
Knotless leaders are produced by a drawing process. I think the stresses
involved make the tippet end virtually worthless. As often as not, I've
found them to be badly out of round and with serious flaws in the surface.
The material also tends to be considerably softer than the Maxima tippet
material I use routinely. The Maxima tippet usually cuts through the weaker
leader when I try to tie them together at small diameters.

I carry tippet in four sizes; 2, 3, 5, and 8 pound test. I don't know what
the "x" designation for these is......easy enough to find out if one is
interested, I suppose. When setting up with the butt end of a new knotless
leader I cut it about where the 5 pound Maxima more or less matches the
diameter and tie in a foot or so. I follow that with 18-24 inches of the
three pound and then 30-40 inches of the two pound. Voila. I end up with
something on the order of ten to thirteen feet of leader......suitable for
most of what I do.

There can be no doubt that carefully determined leader setups will work
better in some situations than others, but I've found that slight (and
easily managed....with practice) adjustments to casting strokes will, in
most situations, compensate quite nicely.

In short, and is applicable to most of the controversial issues in fly
fishing, it ain't the fiddlestick that makes the music......it's the
fiddler.

Wolfgang

Wolfgang wrote:

In my own case this has resulted
in ever decreasing reliance on knotless tapered leaders; they just don't do
anything very well. I do still occasionally use them because I'm too lazy
to keep myself supplied with hand tied leaders. When I do resort to them, I
always lop off a couple of feet at the tippet end and rebuild from there.
Knotless leaders are produced by a drawing process. I think the stresses
involved make the tippet end virtually worthless.

That's absurd. ALL monofilament is produced by extrusion, including the
two feet of tippet you're wasting and the other two feet you're
replacing it with. The "stresses" are the same.

BTW, please don't throw that two feet of wasted tippet onto the ground.

As often as not, I've
found them to be badly out of round and with serious flaws in the surface.

Where the hell are you buying leaders? Bob's Bait's closeout sale?

The material also tends to be considerably softer than the Maxima tippet
material I use routinely. The Maxima tippet usually cuts through the weaker
leader when I try to tie them together at small diameters.

You can buy Maxima knotless tapered leaders at Cabela's and at thousands
of other fine retail outlets around the country. Duh.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

"rw" wrote in message
m...
Wolfgang wrote:

In my own case this has resulted in ever decreasing reliance on knotless
tapered leaders; they just don't do anything very well. I do still
occasionally use them because I'm too lazy to keep myself supplied with
hand tied leaders. When I do resort to them, I always lop off a couple
of feet at the tippet end and rebuild from there. Knotless leaders are
produced by a drawing process. I think the stresses involved make the
tippet end virtually worthless.

That's absurd.

Is it? Let's see.

ALL monofilament is produced by extrusion, including the two feet of
tippet you're wasting and the other two feet you're replacing it with. The
"stresses" are the same.

Extrusion? Did I say something about extrusion? Did I, for that matter,
say anything about how monofilament is made?

BTW, please don't throw that two feet of wasted tippet onto the ground.

I'll save it for you. You can stick it where your head lives.

As often as not, I've found them to be badly out of round and with
serious flaws in the surface.

Where the hell are you buying leaders? Bob's Bait's closeout sale?

I'm not familiar with that establishment. Do they have an outlet in
southeast Wisconsin?

The material also tends to be considerably softer than the Maxima tippet
material I use routinely. The Maxima tippet usually cuts through the
weaker leader when I try to tie them together at small diameters.

You can buy Maxima knotless tapered leaders at Cabela's and at thousands
of other fine retail outlets around the country. Duh.

And? I thought I had made it clear that I wasn't in the market for knotless
tapered leaders.

Wolfgang
good god, the boy is stupid!

Wolfgang wrote:

"rw" wrote in message
m...


Where the hell are you buying leaders? Bob's Bait's closeout sale?


I'm not familiar with that establishment. Do they have an outlet in
southeast Wisconsin?

Just down the road, but it may have changed ownershop, as it does every
year or so. They also sell minnows and nightcrawlers.

You can buy Maxima knotless tapered leaders at Cabela's and at thousands
of other fine retail outlets around the country. Duh.


And? I thought I had made it clear that I wasn't in the market for knotless
tapered leaders.

Right, because (among other things) they didn't accept your precious
Maxima tippet. Geez. What a self important loser.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

"rw" wrote in message
m...
Wolfgang wrote:

"rw" wrote in message
m...


Where the hell are you buying leaders? Bob's Bait's closeout sale?


I'm not familiar with that establishment. Do they have an outlet in
southeast Wisconsin?

Just down the road, but it may have changed ownershop, as it does every
year or so. They also sell minnows and nightcrawlers.

Which road?

You can buy Maxima knotless tapered leaders at Cabela's and at thousands
of other fine retail outlets around the country. Duh.


And? I thought I had made it clear that I wasn't in the market for
knotless tapered leaders.

Right, because (among other things) they didn't accept your precious
Maxima tippet.

Huh? Refresh my memory. What was I trying to get for Maxima tippet, and
from whom?

Geez. What a self important loser.

Would you care to give us a hint concerning what the hell you are gibbering
about? And while you're at it, why don't you explain to us the difference
between drawing and extruding?

Wolfgang
who supposes this is what comes of cavorting with thirteen year old girls.

"Wolfgang" Wolfgang
who supposes this is what comes of cavorting with thirteen year old girls.



I was in a tsunami once...washed up in a child brothel. Nothing happened...

john

Wolfgang wrote:

In my own case this has resulted
in ever decreasing reliance on knotless tapered leaders; they just don't do
anything very well. I do still occasionally use them because I'm too lazy
to keep myself supplied with hand tied leaders. When I do resort to them, I
always lop off a couple of feet at the tippet end and rebuild from there.
Knotless leaders are produced by a drawing process. I think the stresses
involved make the tippet end virtually worthless.

That's absurd. ALL monofilament is produced by extrusion, including the
two feet of tippet you're wasting and the other two feet you're
replacing it with. The "stresses" are the same.

BTW, please don't throw that two feet of wasted tippet onto the ground.

As often as not, I've
found them to be badly out of round and with serious flaws in the surface.

Where the hell are you buying leaders? Bob's Bait's closeout sale?

The material also tends to be considerably softer than the Maxima tippet
material I use routinely. The Maxima tippet usually cuts through the weaker
leader when I try to tie them together at small diameters.

You can buy Maxima knotless tapered leaders at Cabela's and at thousands
of other fine retail outlets around the country. Duh.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.