7/8 Weight Steelhead Rod Recommendations

Ken you are dead wrong about everything you just wrote. I can build a
better rod in every way than any factory. Have you ever had a reel seat
come loose, guide finish cracking, guides come loose or fall out, cork
thats all pitted. On my rods thise things dont happen ever. My rods are
built with single foot ceramic fly guides that are better in every way
and cast further than any rod with snake guides. My rods are fitted to
the caster not the other way around. My guides are placed where they
should be, not set to some standard placement that means nothing
because every blank is different even in the same model. When you bend
the blank it shows you were the guides need to be placed to keep the
line off the blank for better distance. I can make my rods any color I
choose, I can do feather inlays, butt wraps, use the best glue, finish,
the best components money can buy. (the factory doesnt do that) Seems
to me all factory guys come from the same mold and its and old mold, if
you are still fishing any rods with snake guides you are way behined
the curve. All you are paying for in a factory rod is a warrenty and
you are getting a product that is set up for the average guy with
average components and is of average quality. I can tell you have never
fishied a good custom rod or your opinion would be different, come to
the Penns Clave and I'll show show you a real fly rod. Bruce Fisher

Softhackle wrote:
Ken you are dead wrong about everything you just wrote.

Well, I disagree of course, but then it wouldn't be the first
time that everything I wrote was dead wrong.

snip
I can tell you have never
fishied a good custom rod or your opinion would be different, come to
the Penns Clave and I'll show show you a real fly rod. Bruce Fisher

Actually I have fished with what I assume was a good custom rod.
Wayne Knight let me play with a custom made Winston in Wisconsin
one time. Beautiful stick, gorgeous feather inlays, perfect in
every respect, built by Tom Hargrove if I'm not mistaken. I didn't
notice any difference between that Winston and my own factory
Winston except that the custom rod was prettier to look at.

Penn's is not on my calendar, I'm planning to be in Bryson City,
North Cackalacky from May 8-13. Come on down, Wayno's gonna wear
an Illini sweatshirt and buy dinner at the Fryemont. ;-)

--
Ken Fortenberry

Ken I am not saying all factory rods are bad because thats just not the
case. But let me put it to you this way a custom rod will hold up
better over time. A custom rod will be less expensive for the same
blank and components because the customer is not paying for a warrenty.
A custom rod built by a qualified professional will absolutly cast with
less effort and less friction simply because it will have ceramic
guides on it. Until the factory starts using ceramic guides their rods
they will be inferior. A custom rod is fitted to the customer and
designed for a specific type of fishing and the customer can choose any
layout he wants. The factory isnt interested in any of these things and
certainly not quality they seem to be interested in quantity. They dont
use the best glues, finish or components because they know the rod will
be broken in a year or two and they'll have to replace it. And this
comes from a guy that is in love with his sage 490-4 LL, its damn near
my best friend. But the rod has deteriorated so badly over the last 10
years that it needs to be stripped and refinished. The reel seat fell
off two years ago and I had to reglue it, the guides are all cracked
and water had rotted the threads. These things dont happen with well
build custom's. So its not the pretty stuff that makes it custom its
the quality, cosmetics are secondary. With all this being said the
thing that kills me is the rod blanks for any major company only cost
about 3 dollars to manufacture, 5 with labor. My buddy is a distributor
for serveral major midwest companys and if you only knew what he pays
for his stuff you would fall off your chair. So for myself I would
never pay more than 50.00 for a blank no matter how strait or perfect
the paint job, or how nice it bends. Never in my wildest dreams did I
think I'd see the day when a graphite fly rod sold for 700.00 but they
do and people actually think they are better then custom's because of
the price. It amazes me what advertising can do to a culture. I'll give
you this the Winstons are pretty damn nice maybe even the best of the
factory rods but for 700.00 I could build myself 3 great rods. Bruce

Softhackle wrote:
A custom rod will be less expensive for the same
blank and components because the customer is not paying for a
warrenty.

For the last freeking time, neither you nor anyone else can point to
any impirical evidence that the advent of the unconditional life time
warrantied rods drove the cost up. The year when the major *premium*
rod makers added the unconditional warranty (either 1997 or 1998), the
prices either remained flat or did not increase any more than they been
increasing in the years prior. The only thing that changed was the
nature of the warranty on older rods, Sage retroactvely applied the
warranty, Winston offered some owners of certain rods an extended
warranty for a fee, Scott and T&T just applied to rods purchased from
that point forward.

A custom rod built by a qualified professional will absolutly cast
with
less effort and less friction simply because it will have ceramic
guides on it. Until the factory starts using ceramic guides their
rods
they will be inferior. A custom rod is fitted to the customer and
designed for a specific type of fishing and the customer can choose
any
layout he wants.

Of the last 10 rods I have purchased, seven have been custom made for
me. Some, but not all, had ceramic guides, and I personally cannot tell
the difference in their action but I can tell the difference in the
cosmetics. The only other difference is in the cork handle, my custom
rods generally have wider cork grips, which I believe to me more
comfortable after a day of fishing.

The factory isnt interested in any of these things and
certainly not quality they seem to be interested in quantity. They
dont
use the best glues, finish or components because they know the rod
will
be broken in a year or two and they'll have to replace it. And this
comes from a guy that is in love with his sage 490-4 LL, its damn
near
my best friend. But the rod has deteriorated so badly over the last
10
years that it needs to be stripped and refinished. The reel seat fell
off two years ago and I had to reglue it, the guides are all cracked
and water had rotted the threads.

Sorry, sounds to me like it was a rod that was not cared for. I've got
early model factory rods that don't have that problem becasue they are
dried before they get sealed in the tube if they got wet, cleaned
periodically, even waxed once a year. Every rod in my *collection*
including my cane rods were made to be fished and have been fished,
dropped in the stream, used to break falls, tangled in trees, etc. I
have been careful to avoid doors, but I have been known to drive off
with them on top of the vehicle, luckily none have been run over yet
when doing that.

These things dont happen with well
build custom's. So its not the pretty stuff that makes it custom its
the quality, cosmetics are secondary.

I would think if I did not care for the rods, even the custom rods
would suffer damage.

With all this being said the
thing that kills me is the rod blanks for any major company only cost
about 3 dollars to manufacture, 5 with labor.

If you are talking about mass produced imported blanks, maybe.
Otherwise you are seriously mistaken. I was part of an investor group
that tried to purchase one of the major rod makers in the late 90's. US
rolled blanks with US labor cost, the costs were higher than you
assert.

My buddy is a distributor
for serveral major midwest companys and if you only knew what he pays
for his stuff you would fall off your chair. So for myself I would
never pay more than 50.00 for a blank no matter how strait or perfect
the paint job, or how nice it bends.

Good for you.

Never in my wildest dreams did I
think I'd see the day when a graphite fly rod sold for 700.00 but
they
do and people actually think they are better then custom's because of
the price. It amazes me what advertising can do to a culture. I'll
give
you this the Winstons are pretty damn nice maybe even the best of the
factory rods but for 700.00 I could build myself 3 great rods.

I think there are too many reverse snobs who get hung up on what a rod
cost or does not. Especially in todays market. Some folks define good
in what a rod does or does not do in their hands, other define it in
terms of the fish handling ability, others in the appearance. Premium
rods, if one can afford them, are usually sold from specialized stores
and priced using a margin vs volume market philosophy. If you want a
factory winston, that's what they cost? Do I think a winston wt rod is
a better fishing rod than a TFO Ticr? Hell yes and not just because of
the price, do I think a Winston LT is a better fishing rod than a Sage
Discovery? hell no even if the cosmetics are better and it cost more.
It would be nice if rods had the same price point differences as does
imported hackle vs genetic hackle but it doesn't. And I don't think
I've ever seen anyone assert that an imported asian neck is "just as
good" as a Grade I Whiting neck.

I would hope as a builder you could build three rods with winston
blanks for the price of one factory rod. However if you were in the
business of making and selling rods as your sole source of income, I
guaran-damn-tee you that you would not be selling the rods for what
they *cost*. Otherwise you would not be making many rods for long or
you would starve.

Wayne Knight wrote:
Softhackle wrote:
A custom rod will be less expensive for the same
blank and components because the customer is not paying for a
warrenty.

For the last freeking time, neither you nor anyone else can point to
any impirical evidence that the advent of the unconditional life time
warrantied rods drove the cost up. The year when the major *premium*
rod makers added the unconditional warranty (either 1997 or 1998),
the
prices either remained flat or did not increase any more than they
been
increasing in the years prior. The only thing that changed was the
nature of the warranty on older rods, Sage retroactvely applied the
warranty, Winston offered some owners of certain rods an extended
warranty for a fee, Scott and T&T just applied to rods purchased from
that point forward.

No they just give the warrenty away for free.

A custom rod built by a qualified professional will absolutly cast
with
less effort and less friction simply because it will have ceramic
guides on it. Until the factory starts using ceramic guides their
rods
they will be inferior. A custom rod is fitted to the customer and
designed for a specific type of fishing and the customer can choose
any
layout he wants.

Of the last 10 rods I have purchased, seven have been custom made for
me. Some, but not all, had ceramic guides, and I personally cannot
tell
the difference in their action but I can tell the difference in the
cosmetics. The only other difference is in the cork handle, my custom
rods generally have wider cork grips, which I believe to me more
comfortable after a day of fishing.

You cant tell the diference between ceramic and wire you gotta be
kidding. If your rods are custom built you tell the guy what you want
and he shapes the grip to your specs.


The factory isnt interested in any of these things and
certainly not quality they seem to be interested in quantity. They
dont
use the best glues, finish or components because they know the rod
will
be broken in a year or two and they'll have to replace it. And this
comes from a guy that is in love with his sage 490-4 LL, its damn
near
my best friend. But the rod has deteriorated so badly over the last
10
years that it needs to be stripped and refinished. The reel seat
fell
off two years ago and I had to reglue it, the guides are all
cracked
and water had rotted the threads.

Sorry, sounds to me like it was a rod that was not cared for. I've
got
early model factory rods that don't have that problem becasue they
are
dried before they get sealed in the tube if they got wet, cleaned
periodically, even waxed once a year. Every rod in my *collection*
including my cane rods were made to be fished and have been fished,
dropped in the stream, used to break falls, tangled in trees, etc. I
have been careful to avoid doors, but I have been known to drive off
with them on top of the vehicle, luckily none have been run over yet
when doing that.

Please tell me how I should care for the epoxy that holds the reel seat
in place. After time when the guide finish cracks there is no amount of
care that will stop water from rotting the threads.

These things dont happen with well
build custom's. So its not the pretty stuff that makes it custom
its
the quality, cosmetics are secondary.

I would think if I did not care for the rods, even the custom rods
would suffer damage.

A good epoxy doenst come loose and good finish doesnt crack.

With all this being said the
thing that kills me is the rod blanks for any major company only
cost
about 3 dollars to manufacture, 5 with labor.

If you are talking about mass produced imported blanks, maybe.
Otherwise you are seriously mistaken. I was part of an investor group
that tried to purchase one of the major rod makers in the late 90's.
US
rolled blanks with US labor cost, the costs were higher than you
assert.

Nope 10 bucks tops

My buddy is a distributor
for serveral major midwest companys and if you only knew what he
pays
for his stuff you would fall off your chair. So for myself I would
never pay more than 50.00 for a blank no matter how strait or
perfect
the paint job, or how nice it bends.

Good for you.

Yup thats right

Never in my wildest dreams did I
think I'd see the day when a graphite fly rod sold for 700.00 but
they
do and people actually think they are better then custom's because
of
the price. It amazes me what advertising can do to a culture. I'll
give
you this the Winstons are pretty damn nice maybe even the best of
the
factory rods but for 700.00 I could build myself 3 great rods.

I think there are too many reverse snobs who get hung up on what a
rod
cost or does not. Especially in todays market. Some folks define good
in what a rod does or does not do in their hands, other define it in
terms of the fish handling ability, others in the appearance. Premium
rods, if one can afford them, are usually sold from specialized
stores
and priced using a margin vs volume market philosophy. If you want a
factory winston, that's what they cost? Do I think a winston wt rod
is
a better fishing rod than a TFO Ticr? Hell yes and not just because
of
the price, do I think a Winston LT is a better fishing rod than a
Sage
Discovery? hell no even if the cosmetics are better and it cost more.
It would be nice if rods had the same price point differences as does
imported hackle vs genetic hackle but it doesn't. And I don't think
I've ever seen anyone assert that an imported asian neck is "just as
good" as a Grade I Whiting neck.

I would hope as a builder you could build three rods with winston
blanks for the price of one factory rod. However if you were in the
business of making and selling rods as your sole source of income, I
guaran-damn-tee you that you would not be selling the rods for what
they *cost*. Otherwise you would not be making many rods for long or
you would starve.

I am not in the business of selling rods

Softhackle wrote:

If you are talking about mass produced imported blanks, maybe.
Otherwise you are seriously mistaken. I was part of an investor group
that tried to purchase one of the major rod makers in the late 90's.

US

rolled blanks with US labor cost, the costs were higher than you
assert.


Nope 10 bucks tops


I hear a couple deep muffled rumbles as I feel the earth shift below my
feet, "George, George, is that you????"


Willi

Softhackle wrote:

No they just give the warrenty away for free.


No they assumed the cost of warranty in price of the product. Probably
creating a reserve that partially lowered their tax liability. Their
margins are obviously higher due to the nature of the product and the
market model. It was a marketing thing which allowed better competion
with Orvis at the time. And the higher priced assumption does not
explain how a TFO can offer the same.

Some, but not all, had ceramic guides, and I personally cannot
tell the difference in their action

You cant tell the diference between ceramic and wire you gotta be
kidding.

I did not say I could not tell the difference in their appearance, I
said I could tell a difference in their action.

If your rods are custom built you tell the guy what you want
and he shapes the grip to your specs.

I have not disagreed with that assertion, I think I supported your
argument there.

Please tell me how I should care for the epoxy that holds the reel
seat
in place. After time when the guide finish cracks there is no amount
of
care that will stop water from rotting the threads.

Water, plus other environmental factors and the resultant reaction over
time to things will often corrode and or loosen thing. I've never had
those things happen, and I have assembled a cross section of different
maker's rods. I've had rods break at the ferrulles but never had a grip
loosen or winding crack. In a sealed system that SHOULD NOT happen.


A good epoxy doenst come loose and good finish doesnt crack.


But a scratched wrap or a rod stored wet can absorb water and other
things which can allow these to happen over time. In the same manner a
knick in the rod can create a weak point which under certain stresses
in a particular time create breakage.

Nope 10 bucks tops

One more time, a little better worded. I did due diligence on a rod
company about 8 years ago. I have copies of their development and costs
to this day. I think you need a better understanding of costing methods
and cost recovery. The then owner of the company should still be
kicking himself, he turned down our offer but sold it two-three years
later for

Yup thats right

If you're as good as you say you are, i envy your skill, I've been
playing with making my own rods for several years, the result usually
suck. For some reason I can carve a quail or pheasant into a 20g
shotgun stock but I can't wrap silk worth a damn, go figure.

I am not in the business of selling rods

Which further proves my point. If you were in the business of selling
rods, yes you could make one for less than the fly shop's charge for a
new factory rod but you would mark them up so that your expected sales
would cover your fixed and variable costs, plus provide you additional
profit to cover personal expenses and the like, resulting in a cost
closer to the retail price of that rod. Whatever the blank you use.

Wayne Knight wrote:

said I could tell a difference in their action.

should say I could NOT tell a difference in their action.

"Wayne Knight" wrote in message
oups.com...

...I don't think
I've ever seen anyone assert that an imported asian neck is "just as
good" as a Grade I Whiting neck...

Judged on the basis of utility per unit cost (and assuming careful selection
of the former before purchase) they're better.

Wolfgang

Softhackle wrote:
Ken I am not saying all factory rods are bad because thats just not the
case. But let me put it to you this way a custom rod will hold up
better over time. A custom rod will be less expensive for the same
blank and components because the customer is not paying for a warrenty.

OK, let's do the math. We're talking about 7/8 weights here so let's
take the Winston BoronIIx 7wt. This is a 4 piece rod with a fighting
butt that sells as a factory rod for $615 and as a blank for $308.

Blank - $308
Components - ~$60 wholesale
Labor- at least 10 hours

Most custom builders I know won't agree to build that rod with high
quality components, much less fancy inlays or wraps, for $307, the
difference between the factory rod and the blank. Now maybe you do,
but if so I think you're charging too little for your labor and
you're definitely charging less than your peers. So the custom rod
will actually cost *more* than the factory rod and you have no
warranty.

snip
... With all this being said the
thing that kills me is the rod blanks for any major company only cost
about 3 dollars to manufacture, 5 with labor.

Well, it's just like the pharmaceutical industry. The *second* pill,
just like the second blank, that comes off the line cost pennies to
manufacture but the *first* one cost many millions. Now is a fishing
stick made of Boron really worth $615 ? If somebody is willing to pay
$615 for it, then yeah, I suppose it is.

--
Ken Fortenberry