Lulea Sweden

Jeff Miller wrote:
i'm ashamed to say that a 1st year teacher with a masters
degree and all proper teaching credentials in my city's schools has a

starting pay of a little over 29k...and it takes 20 years before
he/she
can expect to earn over 40k.


Working 10 months out of the year, 29K would equate to 35K for the rest
of us. Not a bad start, when you consider how relatively easy it is to
obtain an education degree and the lack of real knowledge on a subject
needed to *teach* it in some states, it is not unrealistic to expect
lowered salaries. (Please note i did not say teachers did not *know*
their subjects in all cases)

Elementary and Secondary education is not the noble profession many
folks make it out to be. Can some teachers make a difference in some
kid's life, of course. it still does not the whole profession noble.

You want to raise teacher salaries? Raise the bar to get in.

Wayne
I might have left this alone if I wasn't writing checks to the IRS and
state today after receiving my property tax bill yesterday.

In article .com,
"Wayne Knight" wrote:

Jeff Miller wrote:
i'm ashamed to say that a 1st year teacher with a masters
degree and all proper teaching credentials in my city's schools has a

starting pay of a little over 29k...and it takes 20 years before
he/she
can expect to earn over 40k.


Working 10 months out of the year, 29K would equate to 35K for the rest
of us. Not a bad start, when you consider how relatively easy it is to
obtain an education degree and the lack of real knowledge on a subject
needed to *teach* it in some states, it is not unrealistic to expect
lowered salaries. (Please note i did not say teachers did not *know*
their subjects in all cases)

Elementary and Secondary education is not the noble profession many
folks make it out to be. Can some teachers make a difference in some
kid's life, of course. it still does not the whole profession noble.

You want to raise teacher salaries? Raise the bar to get in.

Wayne
I might have left this alone if I wasn't writing checks to the IRS and
state today after receiving my property tax bill yesterday.

You should have.

Let's look at some other things about teaching...

Out of that "not a bad start", you are required to take continuing education
courses... of course, you don't get PAID to take them, like in most other
professions... they're out of your own pocket. And of course they're only
available during the summertime. So much for that "10 months of the year" job.

You spend several hours a night grading papers, recording grades, writing lesson
plans, creating classroom materials, reading background material, correcting
textbooks, reading professional journals, contacting parents, other teachers,
administrators... So much for that "8 to 3" job...

You buy extra supplies (just little things like classroom materials for 30 kids,
extra reading material for the kids, all those little extras that make a
classroom more than an empty box with students in it) out of your own pocket, to
the tune of several thousand dollars a year (We have the receipts to prove
it...) So much for that "not a bad start"...

Any attempt to maintain classroom discipline is met with angry calls from
parents denying that their little darlings would EVER do anything disruptive
(despite the fact the the little "darling" has spent more time suspended than in
the classroom), and the fact that due to a few bad apples, a teacher can't even
hug a crying student on the playground anymore. Of course, the parents are
completely ignorant of the fact that if you let the TV raise the kids for the
first 6 years, there's almost nothing that a school can do to rescue them.

Not to mention the fact that anytime a school levy comes up, you have to act
like a beggar, pleading for the community to pass it so you will have a job the
next year.

Then you've got the school board that keeps the number of teachers as low as
possible, so that you're constantly at a load that is ONE student short of the
number that would require them to assign you an aide... and you're working with
special ed students that all have different needs, and writing 12 highly
detailed individual lesson plans a week (over the course of a year, over 1000
pages worth!).

On top of all that, after years and years of teaching in the highest stress
field, you're thrown out without even a gold watch when the strain gets to be
too much, with completely inadequate counselling and assistance available.

I was a substitute teacher for 2 years, and taught music for 7 years. I was a
profesional musician for over 30 years, and have 2 recordings to my credit. I
bacame a Mr. Mom after my son was born because it was clear there was no future
in teaching, and have made more money in retail hell than I ever did in
education. My wife taught "special needs" students (ages to 13, highest
functioning at about 2-3 grade)for 25 years. You clearly have NO idea what
teaching is really like. You probably wouldn't survive a week in an elementary
classroom, and a high school basic math or English class would eat you alive in
an hour.

Think about this - those taxes you pay aren't for the kids you may or may not
have in school any more, they're payments on the credit you were extended for
the education YOU received, and still use.

So go ahead and **** and moan about your taxes. Poor baby.

--
"What it all comes to is that the whole structure of space flight as it
stands now is creaking, obsolecent, over-elaborate, decaying. The field is
static; no, worse than that, it's losing ground. By this time, our ships
ought to be sleeker and faster, and able to carry bigger payloads. We ought
to have done away with this dichotomy between ships that can land on a planet,
and ships that can fly from one planet to another." - Senator Bliss Wagoner
James Blish - _They Shall Have Stars_

Joe Ellis wrote:


You should have.

Let's look at some other things about teaching...

Out of that "not a bad start", you are required to take continuing
education
courses... of course, you don't get PAID to take them, like in most
other
professions... they're out of your own pocket. And of course they're
only
available during the summertime. So much for that "10 months of the
year" job.

Not what my sister endures. She manages to get hers in during the
school year.


You buy extra supplies (just little things like classroom materials
for 30 kids,
extra reading material for the kids, all those little extras that
make a
classroom more than an empty box with students in it) out of your own
pocket, to
the tune of several thousand dollars a year (We have the receipts to
prove
it...) So much for that "not a bad start"...

Seen the extra checks I used to write for supplies big guy? Seen the
tax treatment for teachers? Probably not.

On top of all that, after years and years of teaching in the highest
stress
field, you're thrown out without even a gold watch when the strain
gets to be
too much, with completely inadequate counselling and assistance
available.

Defined benefit pensions too. The private sector has been losing them
for years.

You probably wouldn't survive a week in an elementary
classroom, and a high school basic math or English class would eat
you alive in
an hour.

I subbed too. Math and Chemistry. Got quite a bit of work in too at the
time as I was employed in a clinical laboratory. Even considered doing
it for a living but my undergrad Chemistry degree and post graduate
work was not good enough for them, they wanted an education degree. At
that point the salary was comparable to my private sector income and
the benefits were definitely better.

My employer at one point *loaned* me to a school system. I taught
calculus and general chemistry for two hours each day for one year. I
enjoyed it. Even enjoyed doing lesson plans and grading tests. I take
work home now in the evening, I'm sure others do too. So what?

Think about this - those taxes you pay aren't for the kids you may or
may not
have in school any more, they're payments on the credit you were
extended for
the education YOU received, and still use.

My taxes are a civic duty to support vital government functions. As far
as I know, most citizens generally don't mind paying our fair share for
a community benefit. I do object to the education system not having to
live like the rest of us and tighten our belts peridocially. My fellow
citizens and I just got a levy increase for administrative and athletic
facilities. I'm all for high school sports, but seven million for a
football stadium is a little out of hand.

So go ahead and **** and moan about your taxes. Poor baby.

I would not go around calling those you feed you baby. Read the post
again, I said the education requirements were not tough. And I said it
was not the noble profession folks made it out to be. I never said it
was an easy job.

I knew someone would sputter bull**** rather than offer an intellectual
argument, speaks highly for some abilitiy to teach.

Wayne

"Wayne Knight" wrote in message
ups.com...

SNIP
I knew someone would sputter bull**** rather than offer an intellectual
argument, speaks highly for some abilitiy to teach.

Wayne


So the bottom line was that you couldn't cut it, you couldn't or wouldn't
make a career in teaching? Yet, you get to trash it and beauregard as if you
actually knew what the hell you were talking about?

As a retiree out of the human services I do not have to smile and be quiet
anymore when someone talks trash. Two of the things that account for allot
of what's wrong with this country is that most MEN do not know **** about
the health care system, or the education system. That makes them dangerous
in the voting booth, and total whiners for the most part in the nursing
homes and hospitals.

Teaching is possibly the most noble of the professions. My children were
well served by teachers, and most people can name teachers who had
considerable influence on their lives. My daughter is now a professor. Most
of the retired teachers I know are balanced and happy people, and most take
comfort that their pensions are not in the hands of corrupt corporations and
slimy politicians. And that is about as much justice as one should expect in
this sad-assed country.

Dave

"David Snedeker" wrote in message
...

"Wayne Knight" wrote in message
ups.com...

SNIP
I knew someone would sputter bull**** rather than offer an intellectual
argument, speaks highly for some abilitiy to teach.

Wayne


So the bottom line was that you couldn't cut it, you couldn't or wouldn't
make a career in teaching? Yet, you get to trash it and beauregard as if
you
actually knew what the hell you were talking about?

As a retiree out of the human services I do not have to smile and be quiet
anymore when someone talks trash. Two of the things that account for allot
of what's wrong with this country is that most MEN do not know **** about
the health care system, or the education system. That makes them dangerous
in the voting booth, and total whiners for the most part in the nursing
homes and hospitals.

Teaching is possibly the most noble of the professions. My children were
well served by teachers, and most people can name teachers who had
considerable influence on their lives. My daughter is now a professor.
Most
of the retired teachers I know are balanced and happy people, and most
take
comfort that their pensions are not in the hands of corrupt corporations
and
slimy politicians. And that is about as much justice as one should expect
in
this sad-assed country.

Yet another load of unmitigated (as well as unsubstantiated) horse**** from
our resident psychopath in the great northwest.

Wolfgang
who knows that have offspring, knowing a teacher or two, and being retired
from the public tit does not an authority make.

"Wolfgang" wrote in message
...

Yet another load of unmitigated (as well as unsubstantiated) horse****
from
our resident psychopath in the great northwest.

Wolfgang
who knows that have offspring, knowing a teacher or two, and being retired
from the public tit does not an authority make.



Well you don't know much.

1. Most of my working life I owned and or managed private firms, so your
public tit comment is gratuitous.

2. As a part of my work Ive visited, observed, evaluated, consulted,
trained, advised etc in more schools, educational programs and classrooms
and shops than you or Knight will ever see or drive by, including urban
systems where you would most likely wet yourself within a half hour.

3. Ive spent a bit of time in hospitals, worked in one for a short time in
college, and hung out for about 6 months at a nursing home while my father
died. Turns out I seem to have a pretty high pain threshold. Doesn't make me
an expert, but I observed that men were bigger whiners and complainers when
sick than women. Why don't you ask some of the nurses, or maybe a few
mothers. Most men get queasy if they see their own blood, or even have to
clean up a little ****. And if you don't know that I know you have not been
around little kids much, and apparently don't like to get out of the lab
much.

4. Ive also worked with more than a few Older worker employment programs and
on a few class actions. In my personal experience, two occupational groups
stand out as being noticeably more well adjusted and "happy" in retirement:
Teachers, and surprising to me, highway patrol men.

For someone who works in the 5% difference drug realm, you sure play fast
and loose with the word "unsubstantiated."

Dave

"David Snedeker" wrote in message
...

"Wolfgang" wrote in message
...

Yet another load of unmitigated (as well as unsubstantiated) horse****
from
our resident psychopath in the great northwest.

Wolfgang
who knows that have offspring, knowing a teacher or two, and being
retired
from the public tit does not an authority make.



Well you don't know much.

Unlike you, I never claimed to.

1. Most of my working life I owned and or managed private firms, so your
public tit comment is gratuitous.

Most? To how many decimal places?

2. As a part of my work Ive visited, observed, evaluated, consulted,
trained, advised etc in more schools, educational programs and classrooms
and shops than you or Knight will ever see or drive by,

And you calculated that......how?

including urban
systems where you would most likely wet yourself within a half hour.

Urban systems? Yeah, I don't see much of that

3. Ive spent a bit of time in hospitals, worked in one for a short time in
college,

Well......gosh......I won't try to match that.

and hung out for about 6 months at a nursing home while my father
died. Turns out I seem to have a pretty high pain threshold.

What.....they put thumbscrews on you?

Doesn't make me an expert,

We agree on that much.

but I observed that men were bigger whiners and complainers when
sick than women.

And you know how impressive your observations are......right?

Why don't you ask some of the nurses, or maybe a few
mothers.

Mainly because I have no reason to suspect that any I am familiar with would
have any idea of or interest in your observations. There are other reasons,
but I suspect that one will suffice.

Most men get queasy if they see their own blood, or even have to
clean up a little ****.

You've traveled more widely than I suspected. I wasn't aware that you were
intimately familiar with most men.

And if you don't know that I know you have not been
around little kids much, and apparently don't like to get out of the lab
much.

Well, you don't know much.

4. Ive also worked with more than a few Older worker employment programs
and
on a few class actions.

Well......gosh.

In my personal experience, two occupational groups
stand out as being noticeably more well adjusted and "happy" in
retirement:
Teachers, and surprising to me, highway patrol men.

And one could hardly ask for better evidence than your personal experience,
huh?

For someone who works in the 5% difference drug realm, you sure play fast
and loose with the word "unsubstantiated."

O.k., why don't you see if you can point out what you have
substantiated......and how?

For that matter, why don't you see if you can elucidate for us just what any
of the self-congratulatory twaddle above has to do with the claim that
teaching is "possibly the most noble of the professions" or anything that
Wayne said in response to Mr. Ellis?

Good luck!

Wolfgang

"David Snedeker" wrote in message
...

So the bottom line was that you couldn't cut it, you couldn't or wouldn't
make a career in teaching? Yet, you get to trash it and beauregard as if
you
actually knew what the hell you were talking about?

I said I considered it, they wanted an education degree in that particular
school system. At the time I was doing post grad work in chemistry, and yes
I made a choice not to seek the edu degree.

Two of the things that account for allot
of what's wrong with this country is that most MEN do not know **** about
the health care system,

I have forgotten more about the health care system than you ever learned.

Teaching is possibly the most noble of the professions. My children were
well served by teachers, and most people can name teachers who had
considerable influence on their lives.

Oh bull****, if you're bleeding out from a chest wound, I'm sure you would
consider the trauma surgeon to be the most noble profession at the time, or
if your house was on fire....you get the idea. There are good teachers that
*inspire* kids but I'm sure your children were exposed to bad and medicore
teachers too, most of which they can't remember. No different than everyday
life and other people you come in contact with on a daily basis.

of the retired teachers I know are balanced and happy people, and most
take
comfort that their pensions are not in the hands of corrupt corporations
and
slimy politicians. And that is about as much justice as one should expect
in
this sad-assed country.

Oh come on, the country has issues, always has had issues We'll find a way
to survive Georgie and the sun will continue to rise in the east and set in
the west. As to your friends pensions, get a grip son, they were government
employees, and who do the governement employees actually work for? , hint,
it ain't the taxpayer.

"Wayne Knight" wrote in message
...


Well I don't have a clue what your point is.

I stand by my statement that from what I have seen in life and in my work,
teachers are an uncommonly dedicated lot, and seem to me to be generally
happy in retirement and uncommonly satisfied with how they have spent their
lives.

Wayne, I hope you are not holding up hospitals as bastions of efficiency and
cost effectiveness. And your comment about surgeons? . . . Noble would not
be my choice of adjectives. To me they are more like fighter pilots, same
kind of egos, reflexes etc. Definitely needed, interesting and talented . .
.. but noble? Sorry.

Dave
Dave

"David Snedeker" wrote in message
...

Well I don't have a clue what your point is.

I stand by my statement that from what I have seen in life and in my work,
teachers are an uncommonly dedicated lot, and seem to me to be generally
happy in retirement and uncommonly satisfied with how they have spent
their
lives.

Teachers are not the only uncommonly dedicated lot David. You can put them
on a pedestal if you like, I won't. .

Wayne, I hope you are not holding up hospitals as bastions of efficiency
and
cost effectiveness.

No but I try everyday to make them that way. Like the education *system*,
they're a tough nut to bring to reality and make them work right.