montana...and, fawn lake

1. IMO, two weeks is too long to be away from one's home and those
you love...even when the adventure involves the company of good friends,
willing mentors, and fine fishing. Thanks to Indian Joe for
keeping it interesting and entertaining, and for being the best of
traveling companions. Thanks also to all who shared their moments with
me. Each year is better. Each year I notice something new - albeit
something that's been patently apparent to others. Montana is a
wondrous circumstance i doubt i'll ever tire of, and i'm grateful to
this place and all hereabouts that provided the impetus for my travels
west.

it was fun seeing several others in their first baptism in montana's
waters.

2. The salmon fly hatch will make a mediocre fisherman swell up with
confidence and provide many worthy subjects for photos. The end of the
salmon fly hatch brings reality and honesty back into the struggle.
There were a lot of 20+ inch fish caught this year in the Madison. The
water was lower, but the salmon fly hatch wasn't as prolific... there
was one day I'll never forget. adhd trout. Thank the goddesses, bruce
caught twice as many fish as i did in the same area...he's more than
twice the fisherman i will ever be, and a marvel on a stream, but he
confirmed my experience as real.

it was a hoot. the caddis fly hatch was just as productive after the
stones disappeared. little bugs and big fish. i "aged" on the madison.
i fished several other rivers as well, but the madison was constant.
it's a pleasant way to grow old. i shook hands with grayling, cutthroat,
brown, rainbow, and brookies. they said to give regards to y'all.

3. i met and enjoyed the company of several of the folks who were mere
names and typed words to me before july 6. all seemed fine folks in our
short contact, and i suspect them to be even better people in their
sustained relationships. i hope to see them again. met some new folks
as well - bevin, robin, harry. seemed like they'd always been a part of
the crowd - passionate fishermen all.

4. the occasion to be in the company of the western roff crowd is reason
enough to travel to montana. willi, danl, bruce, rw, john hightower,
mark tinsky. warren is a fine and sacrificial host...even encumbered
with duties to daughter and girlfriend, he exceeded all expectations -
thanks for the time and the copenhagen smiles.

5. wayno...hmmm. i have your cell phone. the wading boots...last i
saw, joe was bartering them for an acre or two of land...or a coffee
spoon. those were some big fish, eh? indian creek next year? ree was a
wise and pleasant addition to the scruffy crowd. she near about makes
you handsome, though apparently not to mormon girl scouts. but ree
confirmed the desirability of having more of the distaff side in
attendance. looking forward to seeing the photos she took.

6. One item on my agenda this year was selfish and sorta mean of
spirit. ...i harbored a need to confront an unpleasantry, and to find
and confirm a truth. it was a personal and ugly mission in most
respects.. one i felt compelled to follow to a resolution. it was a
scenic journey though. is there a Fawn Lake? Was ken fortenberry
correct in his claims that the lake was a myth and that i was stupid in
suggesting otherwise? i've been wrong many times in my life, but the
personal tone of ken's comments raised an indignant spark in me and a
need to discover the truth about the matter.

so... for some background...

On or about 17 August 2004, tim g posted and asked:

"...again, the goal here is, yes, to catch wild trout in a beatiful
place. The trip should place special emphasis on the hiking, camping,
scenery, wildlife, etc., as I'll be trying to encourage her [his wife]
to take more similar trips with me in the future, and it's currently
unclear whether the fishing alone will sell her on it. I know there are
a lot of good possibilities to choose from, but I'm hoping someone might
have personal experience to help me narrow my choices."

In response, I made an oblique comment in which I remarked on my
experience near the headwaters of the Gardner and the potential for
camping at or near Fawn Lake suggesting them as potential hiking,
camping, and/or fishing destinations away from the crowds. Ken,
commenting on my top-post, asserted the following:

"I'm saying you're stupid. Rude, stupid and lazy to be precise.
Go ahead and take a 3-day, 2-night backcountry camping trip into
the area you so stupidly recommended. That'll teach you.
But until you do you'd better be prepared to take the criticism
from those who know better."

and,

"This conversational Usenet barroom has its own unique conundrums, not
the least of which is the "who do you believe" dilemma when roff
regulars disagree on a fishing/trip/spot/campsite.

I am somewhat knowledgeable about Yellowstone and I don't post false
info here on roff."

and,

"Jeffie is an idiot"
[ok...he got that one right...but, not about the fawn lake thing.]

and,

"There is no Fawn Lake in Yellowstone you insufferable moron. There
is a Fawn Pass, I've crossed it, a Fawn Pass Trail, I've hiked it,
and a Fawn Creek, I've wet my hiking boots in it near where it
joins the Gardner at Gardners Hole. That is also the location of
the closest campsites on your recommended route. I would suggest
that you actually hike up there and camp and try to catch a tiny
fish before spouting ignorant advice here.

You gave the guy bad advice, not through malice I'm sure but because
you don't know jack**** about Yellowstone or backcountry camping and
of course, you're rude, stupid and lazy."


and, continuing his screed, ken said:

"There is no Fawn Lake. If you hike the five or six miles expecting to
find a lake to fish in you will be surprised to find that there is no
lake, only a swamp and about five acres of weeds. Fawn Lake is a myth.
Richard Parks who owns the only fly shop in Gardiner wrote a guidebook
in which he claims there are 24" brook trout in there. He's full of it,
but people still go there seeking the myth."


and, he also challenged:

"Well, just gather up three of your buddies, (the Park Service
usually requires groups of at least four in that area because
of the griz') and scoot on over there during the fishing season.
Let us know if you see a lake or a swamp and acres of weeds. No
camping, heroic or pedestrian, is required, it's only about a
two hour hike each way and there's no fishing to distract you
along the way. Kinda begs the question why this hike ever came
up in a backcountry hike/fish thread doesn't it?"


and, ken said:

"Read all the blurbs and outfitter advertising you want, I know better.
There is no Fawn Lake during practically the entire fishing season,
it's nothing but a mass of unfishable weeds surrounded by a swamp.
They sure do make it sound pretty, too bad it's bull****."


well, being the insufferable moron and lazy fuktard i admittedly am, and
not being one to avoid the great mystery, i figured on this year's trip
i'd try to see if fawn lake was the myth claimed by fortenberry...so,
heeding his challenge, i gathered up three "buddies" and we lit out in
search of fawn lake (as shown on the yellowstone map) or for whatever
was supposed to be fawn lake - weed bed, myth, whatever. my traveling
companions were neither fuktards nor morons, so i figured them as
believable witnesses. none of us knew what to expect. Giving the devil
his due, Ken frequently is accurate in his factual statements about a
great many things and he did spend a good bit of time in the Yellowstone
area.

Hell, he mighta been right...a hypothesis RDean suggested. In any
event, after the August 2004 rants, I determined i'd see who was
knowledgeable about the matter - ken, or yellowstone's map makers and
the locals.

....And...um....based on personal observation, with confirmation of
witnesses and photos... yes, Virginia, Ken, and RDean, there is a Fawn
Lake.

It's no myth. It was quite a nice and large mountain lake actually.
Choc, IJ, Warren, and I hiked up to it, saw it, and saw rising fish in
it. Warren reported seeing some trout in it swimming along the drop off
which he estimated at 18 inches. We saw it in mid-July - fishing season
in yellowstone. It was full of water. no weeds or swamp. pictures are
posted an abpf (large k).

Craig Matthews and at least one other West Yellowstone guide, affirmed
fawn lake never goes dry. It is definitely not a mass of unfishable
weeds surrounded by a swamp. It is a relatively large and deep mountain
lake at about 7800 feet elevation in a beautiful, remote setting. There
are lots of rising fish in the lake. it's worth the hike, for reasons
better than proving ken to be arrogant, stupid, insufferable, rude, and
wrong. of course, those are reasons enough to enjoy the sight of fawn lake.

hell, even a fuktard knows fawn lake ain't a myth.

jeff

Jeff Miller wrote:
snip
hell, even a fuktard knows fawn lake ain't a myth.

I'm just glad you didn't carry that baggage with you all this time. ;-)
Nice report, Jeff.
--
TL,
Tim
---------------------------
http://css.sbcma.com/timj/

"Jeff Miller" wrote in message
news:uo%De.79422$%Z2.21717@lakeread08...

...fawn lake ain't a myth.

Huh? You really think that your own experience, that of three companions,
the testimony of various professional guides, the advice of local fly shop
owners, the Yellowstone National Park fishing regulations (daily limit--five
brook trout under thirteen inches), aerial photos, USGS topo maps, DeLorme
maps (hard copy and the digital "Street Atlas"), and 313 Google hits ("fawn
lake" yellowstone) trump Kennie's encyclopedic knowledge of the Yellowstone
hinterlands?

Some people will believe just about anything.

Wolfgang
who knows that what kennie can't see through brown glass from a perch on a
stool ain't real.

Jeff Miller wrote:
1. IMO, two weeks is too long to be away from one's home and those
you love...even when the adventure involves the company of good friends,
willing mentors, and fine fishing. Thanks to Indian Joe for
keeping it interesting and entertaining, and for being the best of
traveling companions. Thanks also to all who shared their moments with
me. Each year is better. Each year I notice something new - albeit
something that's been patently apparent to others. Montana is a
wondrous circumstance i doubt i'll ever tire of, and i'm grateful to
this place and all hereabouts that provided the impetus for my travels
west.

it was fun seeing several others in their first baptism in montana's
waters.

2. The salmon fly hatch will make a mediocre fisherman swell up with
confidence and provide many worthy subjects for photos. The end of the
salmon fly hatch brings reality and honesty back into the struggle.
There were a lot of 20+ inch fish caught this year in the Madison. The
water was lower, but the salmon fly hatch wasn't as prolific... there
was one day I'll never forget. adhd trout. Thank the goddesses, bruce
caught twice as many fish as i did in the same area...he's more than
twice the fisherman i will ever be, and a marvel on a stream, but he
confirmed my experience as real.

it was a hoot. the caddis fly hatch was just as productive after the
stones disappeared. little bugs and big fish. i "aged" on the madison.
i fished several other rivers as well, but the madison was constant.
it's a pleasant way to grow old. i shook hands with grayling, cutthroat,
brown, rainbow, and brookies. they said to give regards to y'all.

3. i met and enjoyed the company of several of the folks who were mere
names and typed words to me before july 6. all seemed fine folks in our
short contact, and i suspect them to be even better people in their
sustained relationships. i hope to see them again. met some new folks
as well - bevin, robin, harry. seemed like they'd always been a part of
the crowd - passionate fishermen all.

4. the occasion to be in the company of the western roff crowd is reason
enough to travel to montana. willi, danl, bruce, rw, john hightower,
mark tinsky. warren is a fine and sacrificial host...even encumbered
with duties to daughter and girlfriend, he exceeded all expectations -
thanks for the time and the copenhagen smiles.

5. wayno...hmmm. i have your cell phone. the wading boots...last i
saw, joe was bartering them for an acre or two of land...or a coffee
spoon. those were some big fish, eh? indian creek next year? ree was a
wise and pleasant addition to the scruffy crowd. she near about makes
you handsome, though apparently not to mormon girl scouts. but ree
confirmed the desirability of having more of the distaff side in
attendance. looking forward to seeing the photos she took.

6. One item on my agenda this year was selfish and sorta mean of
spirit. ...i harbored a need to confront an unpleasantry, and to find
and confirm a truth. it was a personal and ugly mission in most
respects.. one i felt compelled to follow to a resolution. it was a
scenic journey though. is there a Fawn Lake? Was ken fortenberry
correct in his claims that the lake was a myth and that i was stupid in
suggesting otherwise? i've been wrong many times in my life, but the
personal tone of ken's comments raised an indignant spark in me and a
need to discover the truth about the matter.

so... for some background...

On or about 17 August 2004, tim g posted and asked:

"...again, the goal here is, yes, to catch wild trout in a beatiful
place. The trip should place special emphasis on the hiking, camping,
scenery, wildlife, etc., as I'll be trying to encourage her [his wife]
to take more similar trips with me in the future, and it's currently
unclear whether the fishing alone will sell her on it. I know there are
a lot of good possibilities to choose from, but I'm hoping someone might
have personal experience to help me narrow my choices."

In response, I made an oblique comment in which I remarked on my
experience near the headwaters of the Gardner and the potential for
camping at or near Fawn Lake suggesting them as potential hiking,
camping, and/or fishing destinations away from the crowds. Ken,
commenting on my top-post, asserted the following:

"I'm saying you're stupid. Rude, stupid and lazy to be precise.
Go ahead and take a 3-day, 2-night backcountry camping trip into
the area you so stupidly recommended. That'll teach you.
But until you do you'd better be prepared to take the criticism
from those who know better."

and,

"This conversational Usenet barroom has its own unique conundrums, not
the least of which is the "who do you believe" dilemma when roff
regulars disagree on a fishing/trip/spot/campsite.

I am somewhat knowledgeable about Yellowstone and I don't post false
info here on roff."

and,

"Jeffie is an idiot"
[ok...he got that one right...but, not about the fawn lake thing.]

and,

"There is no Fawn Lake in Yellowstone you insufferable moron. There
is a Fawn Pass, I've crossed it, a Fawn Pass Trail, I've hiked it,
and a Fawn Creek, I've wet my hiking boots in it near where it
joins the Gardner at Gardners Hole. That is also the location of
the closest campsites on your recommended route. I would suggest
that you actually hike up there and camp and try to catch a tiny
fish before spouting ignorant advice here.

You gave the guy bad advice, not through malice I'm sure but because
you don't know jack**** about Yellowstone or backcountry camping and
of course, you're rude, stupid and lazy."


and, continuing his screed, ken said:

"There is no Fawn Lake. If you hike the five or six miles expecting to
find a lake to fish in you will be surprised to find that there is no
lake, only a swamp and about five acres of weeds. Fawn Lake is a myth.
Richard Parks who owns the only fly shop in Gardiner wrote a guidebook
in which he claims there are 24" brook trout in there. He's full of it,
but people still go there seeking the myth."


and, he also challenged:

"Well, just gather up three of your buddies, (the Park Service
usually requires groups of at least four in that area because
of the griz') and scoot on over there during the fishing season.
Let us know if you see a lake or a swamp and acres of weeds. No
camping, heroic or pedestrian, is required, it's only about a
two hour hike each way and there's no fishing to distract you
along the way. Kinda begs the question why this hike ever came
up in a backcountry hike/fish thread doesn't it?"


and, ken said:

"Read all the blurbs and outfitter advertising you want, I know better.
There is no Fawn Lake during practically the entire fishing season,
it's nothing but a mass of unfishable weeds surrounded by a swamp.
They sure do make it sound pretty, too bad it's bull****."


well, being the insufferable moron and lazy fuktard i admittedly am, and
not being one to avoid the great mystery, i figured on this year's trip
i'd try to see if fawn lake was the myth claimed by fortenberry...so,
heeding his challenge, i gathered up three "buddies" and we lit out in
search of fawn lake (as shown on the yellowstone map) or for whatever
was supposed to be fawn lake - weed bed, myth, whatever. my traveling
companions were neither fuktards nor morons, so i figured them as
believable witnesses. none of us knew what to expect. Giving the devil
his due, Ken frequently is accurate in his factual statements about a
great many things and he did spend a good bit of time in the Yellowstone
area.

Hell, he mighta been right...a hypothesis RDean suggested. In any
event, after the August 2004 rants, I determined i'd see who was
knowledgeable about the matter - ken, or yellowstone's map makers and
the locals.

...And...um....based on personal observation, with confirmation of
witnesses and photos... yes, Virginia, Ken, and RDean, there is a Fawn
Lake.

It's no myth. It was quite a nice and large mountain lake actually.
Choc, IJ, Warren, and I hiked up to it, saw it, and saw rising fish in
it. Warren reported seeing some trout in it swimming along the drop off
which he estimated at 18 inches. We saw it in mid-July - fishing season
in yellowstone. It was full of water. no weeds or swamp. pictures are
posted an abpf (large k).

Craig Matthews and at least one other West Yellowstone guide, affirmed
fawn lake never goes dry. It is definitely not a mass of unfishable
weeds surrounded by a swamp. It is a relatively large and deep mountain
lake at about 7800 feet elevation in a beautiful, remote setting. There
are lots of rising fish in the lake. it's worth the hike, for reasons
better than proving ken to be arrogant, stupid, insufferable, rude, and
wrong. of course, those are reasons enough to enjoy the sight of fawn lake.

hell, even a fuktard knows fawn lake ain't a myth.

jeff


And you too Jeff, you are a fine fisherman and even better gentlemen.
Thanks for offering and then putting Allen, Frank and I onto fish. We
caught some of the biggest fish of the week behind your lodge that
Tuesday. That morning really helped make the week!
It was also nice meeting Kelly Gallop (the proprietor of the Slide
Inn), a great fisherman who I have seen on TV many times.
You should also know that I now agree with you about the Rudy. Your
description of it was accurate- similar and back east and why fish in a
back east kind of place when you're out west? Anyway, I guess we had
to find out on our own. We caught some fish and didn't get beat up
by the river (as the Madison did to us on a couple of occasions) but if
I had to do it again I would have tried to spend a night or 2 closer to
the Park or even in the Park and fished more than the Slough.
Anyway, thanks again for your guiding us Tuesday morning and your
suggestions Wednesday night. They proved to be right.

Gene

Tim J. wrote:
Jeff Miller wrote:
snip
hell, even a fuktard knows fawn lake ain't a myth.

I'm just glad you didn't carry that baggage with you all this time. ;-)
Nice report, Jeff.

Jeffie actually went to Fawn Weedbed ? In July ?
Now that's funny, but obviously the joke's on him.

--
Ken Fortenberry

On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 15:09:57 GMT, Ken Fortenberry
wrote:

Tim J. wrote:
Jeff Miller wrote:
snip
hell, even a fuktard knows fawn lake ain't a myth.

I'm just glad you didn't carry that baggage with you all this time. ;-)
Nice report, Jeff.

Jeffie actually went to Fawn Weedbed ? In July ?
Now that's funny, but obviously the joke's on him.

Assuming you even went up there, what you saw was some old mostly dried up
beaver ponds near Fawn Lake. The lake is a pretty and spring fed but isn't
visible from the trail unless you hike past it on up to Fawn Pass. Obviously the
joke is you.
--
Charlie...
http://www.chocphoto.com

Charlie Choc wrote:
Ken Fortenberry wrote:
Jeffie actually went to Fawn Weedbed ? In July ?
Now that's funny, but obviously the joke's on him.

Assuming you even went up there, what you saw was some old mostly dried up
beaver ponds near Fawn Lake. The lake is a pretty and spring fed but isn't
visible from the trail unless you hike past it on up to Fawn Pass. Obviously the
joke is you.

No, I saw your photo on abpf. That's Fawn Weedbed alright
with far fewer weeds than I remember. How was the fishing ?

--
Ken Fortenberry

"Ken Fortenberry" wrote

No, I saw your photo on abpf. That's Fawn Weedbed alright
with far fewer weeds than I remember. How was the fishing ?

hellfire, forty, what a silly question; you know fish can't be caught
from a non-existant lake!

yfitons
wayno

Wayne Harrison wrote:
"Ken Fortenberry" wrote
No, I saw your photo on abpf. That's Fawn Weedbed alright
with far fewer weeds than I remember. How was the fishing ?

hellfire, forty, what a silly question; you know fish can't be caught
from a non-existant lake!

Yeah, and I'd be shocked to learn that fish were
caught from that "lake". Charlie's pix look like
a lake but the weedbeds extend far out from the
shore, they almost met in the middle the year I
hiked by there, making fishing impossible most of
the fishing season. Even if you could somehow cast
over all the weeds and accidentally hook a fish you'd
never be able to drag it back through all the weeds
to land it.

--
Ken Fortenberry

On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 16:36:27 GMT, Ken Fortenberry
wrote:

Wayne Harrison wrote:
"Ken Fortenberry" wrote
No, I saw your photo on abpf. That's Fawn Weedbed alright
with far fewer weeds than I remember. How was the fishing ?

hellfire, forty, what a silly question; you know fish can't be caught
from a non-existant lake!

Yeah, and I'd be shocked to learn that fish were
caught from that "lake". Charlie's pix look like
a lake but the weedbeds extend far out from the
shore, they almost met in the middle the year I
hiked by there, making fishing impossible most of
the fishing season. Even if you could somehow cast
over all the weeds and accidentally hook a fish you'd
never be able to drag it back through all the weeds
to land it.

There aren't any weed beds around Fawn Lake. You can't see the lake when you
"hike by", if you even did. You saw the old beaver ponds if you saw anything.
--
Charlie...
http://www.chocphoto.com