Cork filler (need to buy or make)

Wolfgang wrote:

Cheap, fast, easy, and effective. However, the trouble with all methods
using, ground, powdered, sanded, or otherwise disintegrated cork in a glue
base is that you lose both of the primary benefits of using cork in the
first place......insulation and, more importantly, resilience. Essentially,
the method you describe (variations of which have been put forward by
others) is that you are simply filling with epoxy or some other gap filling
compound. The cork bits become mere window dressing. Better to cut a piece
of solid cork to fit.....even to enlarge and shape the defect if necessary,
and then cutting and gluing a patch to fit.

This reminds me of a woodworking technique that actually makes the
defect into a feature. It's called a "Dutchman" (no offense to any
Dutch or their relatives). Cut a piece of whatever material you plan to
inlay in a diamond or "bowtie" shape slightly larger than the defect.
Lay the inlay piece over the defect and trace its outline. Remove the
material from inside the lines, sneaking up on the fit. Glue (I'm
guessing a flexible glue would be best for a cork handle), let dry, and
sand flush.


Chuck Vance (but before we get started, let's take a moment to
talk about shop safety ...)

On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 07:02:37 -0600, Conan The Librarian
wrote:

Wolfgang wrote:

Cheap, fast, easy, and effective. However, the trouble with all methods
using, ground, powdered, sanded, or otherwise disintegrated cork in a glue
base is that you lose both of the primary benefits of using cork in the
first place......insulation and, more importantly, resilience. Essentially,
the method you describe (variations of which have been put forward by
others) is that you are simply filling with epoxy or some other gap filling
compound. The cork bits become mere window dressing. Better to cut a piece
of solid cork to fit.....even to enlarge and shape the defect if necessary,
and then cutting and gluing a patch to fit.

This reminds me of a woodworking technique that actually makes the
defect into a feature. It's called a "Dutchman" (no offense to any
Dutch or their relatives). Cut a piece of whatever material you plan to
inlay in a diamond or "bowtie" shape slightly larger than the defect.
Lay the inlay piece over the defect and trace its outline. Remove the
material from inside the lines, sneaking up on the fit. Glue (I'm
guessing a flexible glue would be best for a cork handle), let dry, and
sand flush.

I suspect one would find that using a Dutchman (and the name might give
a clue as to it making a "defect into a feature" versus simply being
frugal and better than wasting material/furniture/etc.) in a rod handle
to be more trouble than it'd be worth, even if it worked. I doubt it
would. If the handle is losing multiple "chunks," the cork is
deteriorating (and/or one of the hinkier pressed cork types) and such a
patch attempt is likely to do more damage by taking out more cork when
it fails.

There are multiple grades of cork used for handles, good and not-so-good
variations of "pressed" cork, and cork tape. Assuming the most common
type, rings, and if the divot were large enough to make use of a "piece
patch" technique, it would be time to replace at least one ring, if not
the whole handle. The replacement of the cork itself is not hard at
all. The shaping can be a chore if done completely by hand, but power
tools can speed things up and access to a lathe can make things pretty
much a breeze. Depending on the rod, the amount of "deconstruction"
necessary for a complete replacement could be significant. If Tom had
asked for opinions on that, I'd have happily offered what I could. As
he asked a pointed question that had a single answer, I provided it.

If you have access in your library to "Advanced Custom Rod Building" by
Clemens, look on page 104, "Filling the cork." Also, "A Master's Guide
to Building a Bamboo Fly Rod" by Garrison and Carmichael, page 216-217,
"Cleaning and Repairing the Cork Grip." I haven't bothered to check
other such references, but I suspect they would detail the same standard
technique for filling minor defects.

TC,
R

wrote:

I suspect one would find that using a Dutchman (and the name might give
a clue as to it making a "defect into a feature" versus simply being
frugal and better than wasting material/furniture/etc.) in a rod handle
to be more trouble than it'd be worth, even if it worked. I doubt it
would. If the handle is losing multiple "chunks," the cork is
deteriorating (and/or one of the hinkier pressed cork types) and such a
patch attempt is likely to do more damage by taking out more cork when
it fails.

IIRC, the OP mentioned a "divot", which seemed like a likely
candidate for a patch rather than a sanding dust filler. I honestly
don't see any reason why it shouldn't work. You're not gluing it to the
surrounding cork.

There are multiple grades of cork used for handles, good and not-so-good
variations of "pressed" cork, and cork tape. Assuming the most common
type, rings, and if the divot were large enough to make use of a "piece
patch" technique, it would be time to replace at least one ring, if not
the whole handle. The replacement of the cork itself is not hard at
all. The shaping can be a chore if done completely by hand, but power
tools can speed things up and access to a lathe can make things pretty
much a breeze. Depending on the rod, the amount of "deconstruction"
necessary for a complete replacement could be significant. If Tom had
asked for opinions on that, I'd have happily offered what I could. As
he asked a pointed question that had a single answer, I provided it.

Yes, you and the rest of ROFF. :-) I also offered what seemed to
me to be a fairly straightforward process for repairing a "divot". It
may seem like more trouble than it's worth to you, but I *like* fitting
inlays in wood. It's certainly more fun than creating a mess of sanding
dust and trying to form a paste of that and glue to fill a void.

I thought it might also work with cork.

YMODV.

If you have access in your library to "Advanced Custom Rod Building" by
Clemens, look on page 104, "Filling the cork." Also, "A Master's Guide
to Building a Bamboo Fly Rod" by Garrison and Carmichael, page 216-217,
"Cleaning and Repairing the Cork Grip." I haven't bothered to check
other such references, but I suspect they would detail the same standard
technique for filling minor defects.

Thanks for the info. My library doesn't have those books, but I'll
make a note of them.


Chuck Vance (who has one early 80's-vintage Fenwick HMG that
needs some serious cork work done; probably more like the ring
replacement you described above, as cockroaches or rats or *something*
got into it in storage and ate away huge pieces of the grip)

On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 12:05:21 -0600, Conan The Librarian
wrote:

wrote:

I suspect one would find that using a Dutchman (and the name might give
a clue as to it making a "defect into a feature" versus simply being
frugal and better than wasting material/furniture/etc.) in a rod handle
to be more trouble than it'd be worth, even if it worked. I doubt it
would. If the handle is losing multiple "chunks," the cork is
deteriorating (and/or one of the hinkier pressed cork types) and such a
patch attempt is likely to do more damage by taking out more cork when
it fails.

IIRC, the OP mentioned a "divot", which seemed like a likely
candidate for a patch rather than a sanding dust filler. I honestly
don't see any reason why it shouldn't work.

You're not gluing it to the surrounding cork.

Then I may have misunderstood what you meant as to where you were
suggesting gluing the new piece/"Dutchman" - ???

There are multiple grades of cork used for handles, good and not-so-good
variations of "pressed" cork, and cork tape. Assuming the most common
type, rings, and if the divot were large enough to make use of a "piece
patch" technique, it would be time to replace at least one ring, if not
the whole handle. The replacement of the cork itself is not hard at
all. The shaping can be a chore if done completely by hand, but power
tools can speed things up and access to a lathe can make things pretty
much a breeze. Depending on the rod, the amount of "deconstruction"
necessary for a complete replacement could be significant. If Tom had
asked for opinions on that, I'd have happily offered what I could. As
he asked a pointed question that had a single answer, I provided it.

Yes, you and the rest of ROFF. :-) I also offered what seemed to
me to be a fairly straightforward process for repairing a "divot". It
may seem like more trouble than it's worth to you, but I *like* fitting
inlays in wood. It's certainly more fun than creating a mess of sanding
dust and trying to form a paste of that and glue to fill a void.

I thought it might also work with cork.

Heck, I've no problem with "it might work." I just think that the odds
are heavily against it working, and it not working would probably cause
more damage. Consider the structure of the materials involved as well
as likely uses of such a inlay (or parquetry, marquetry) piece versus
that of a cork fly rod handle. If a "piece patch" is what is called
for, the split ring method Mike Connor first outlined is what I'd
suggest.

YMODV.

As might yours, and there's nothing wrong with that...IMO, anyway.

If you have access in your library to "Advanced Custom Rod Building" by
Clemens, look on page 104, "Filling the cork." Also, "A Master's Guide
to Building a Bamboo Fly Rod" by Garrison and Carmichael, page 216-217,
"Cleaning and Repairing the Cork Grip." I haven't bothered to check
other such references, but I suspect they would detail the same standard
technique for filling minor defects.

Thanks for the info. My library doesn't have those books, but I'll
make a note of them.

Actually, the Garrison book is a great book, but the handle section is a
bit thin. I'd suggest either the Clemens or Pfeiffer books with regard
to handle work, keeping in mind that a lot of the technique described is
more for full-blown, on-going rod building/finishing rather than an
occasional repair/replacement job. IOW, building sanding lathes,
reamers, taper cutters, etc. might be a bit much for very occasional
use.

Chuck Vance (who has one early 80's-vintage Fenwick HMG that
needs some serious cork work done; probably more like the ring
replacement you described above, as cockroaches or rats or *something*
got into it in storage and ate away huge pieces of the grip)

Yep, a complete or near-complete replacement in the way to go on such as
that. If possible, try to purchase the cork in person or from known
source. Check out Pfeiffer or Clemens cork info or Google "specie
cork." It's been years since I've needed to track such down, so I'll
not offer source opinions.

TC.
R

wrote:

On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 12:05:21 -0600, Conan The Librarian
wrote:

IIRC, the OP mentioned a "divot", which seemed like a likely
candidate for a patch rather than a sanding dust filler. I honestly
don't see any reason why it shouldn't work.

You're not gluing it to the surrounding cork.

Then I may have misunderstood what you meant as to where you were
suggesting gluing the new piece/"Dutchman" - ???

I was probably not precise enough in my previous statement. You are
not gluing it to the cork on the sides, but rather the cork below the
patch. In woodworking inlays, you don't attempt to glue the edges of
the inlay, you glue it to the substrate. I'm assuming you would do the
same with cork, but correct me if I'm wrong.

Yes, you and the rest of ROFF. :-) I also offered what seemed to
me to be a fairly straightforward process for repairing a "divot". It
may seem like more trouble than it's worth to you, but I *like* fitting
inlays in wood. It's certainly more fun than creating a mess of sanding
dust and trying to form a paste of that and glue to fill a void.

I thought it might also work with cork.

Heck, I've no problem with "it might work." I just think that the odds
are heavily against it working, and it not working would probably cause
more damage. Consider the structure of the materials involved as well
as likely uses of such a inlay (or parquetry, marquetry) piece versus
that of a cork fly rod handle. If a "piece patch" is what is called
for, the split ring method Mike Connor first outlined is what I'd
suggest.

I understand your point about the uses, but if anything, I'd think
that cork would be more forgiving than wood. Wood inlays are inherently
a tricky business because of the hygroscopic nature of wood, and the
likelihood of having two different woods contracting/expanding at
different rates.

And if it didn't work, then I'd just go to the ring method. :-)

Thanks for the info. My library doesn't have those books, but I'll
make a note of them.

Actually, the Garrison book is a great book, but the handle section is a
bit thin. I'd suggest either the Clemens or Pfeiffer books with regard
to handle work, keeping in mind that a lot of the technique described is
more for full-blown, on-going rod building/finishing rather than an
occasional repair/replacement job. IOW, building sanding lathes,
reamers, taper cutters, etc. might be a bit much for very occasional
use.

Thanks again for the info. And don't worry, I've been known to
build elaborate jigs and templates for one-off jobs in the shop. :-)

Chuck Vance (who has one early 80's-vintage Fenwick HMG that
needs some serious cork work done; probably more like the ring
replacement you described above, as cockroaches or rats or *something*
got into it in storage and ate away huge pieces of the grip)

Yep, a complete or near-complete replacement in the way to go on such as
that. If possible, try to purchase the cork in person or from known
source. Check out Pfeiffer or Clemens cork info or Google "specie
cork." It's been years since I've needed to track such down, so I'll
not offer source opinions.

I'll check it out. Heck, this discussion has got me thinking that I
should get after re-doing that grip. In some spots it's almost down to
the blank. I don't know if that means it's a candidate for total
replacement or not. I'm a little leery of trying to remove the reel
seat/spacer, since I don't have any previous experience doing it.


Chuck Vance

On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 13:34:04 -0600, Conan The Librarian
wrote:

wrote:

On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 12:05:21 -0600, Conan The Librarian
wrote:

IIRC, the OP mentioned a "divot", which seemed like a likely
candidate for a patch rather than a sanding dust filler. I honestly
don't see any reason why it shouldn't work.

You're not gluing it to the surrounding cork.

Then I may have misunderstood what you meant as to where you were
suggesting gluing the new piece/"Dutchman" - ???

I was probably not precise enough in my previous statement. You are
not gluing it to the cork on the sides, but rather the cork below the
patch. In woodworking inlays, you don't attempt to glue the edges of
the inlay, you glue it to the substrate. I'm assuming you would do the
same with cork, but correct me if I'm wrong.

Hmmm...first, I've never used, seen, or even heard of a Dutchman used to
repair an inlay, nor do I think it would be an appropriate use, but that
is certainly another of those "YMMV" things. In my experience, a
Dutchman is simply a way to repair/salvage something much larger (a
large, wide plank in a casegood, for example) that merits the handwork
necessary to fit it. And again, in my experience, a Dutchman would be
fully glued, much like a plug.

That said, given the time and effort to precisely cut the recept in the
handle and the corresponding cork "Dutchman," it would be more an goal
in and of itself rather than a practical repair method. And beyond
that, you would be relying on the underlying cork to hold the patch, and
if you didn't glue the edges, I think that would introduce another
weakness in that, unlike the very thin wood inlay where there is no real
edge to hold glue, nor is it necessary, the cork Dutchman would
susceptible to catching and tearing at the edge of the "patch" unless
glued at the edges.

Could, for argument's sake, a patch be done by this method? Yeah, sure.
Should it be done? That would be up to the individual, but I don't
think it would be worth it, and I know that it would be completely
unnecessary excess as far as repair goes, even forgetting the "glue
to...???" issue and whether it would hold.

Heck, you could probably argue for CNC mircocutters with 3D digitizing
input and all sorts of other cool ****, but how many double-naught
rod-building superheroes do you really need to change a lightbulb?

TC,
R

wrote in message
...
On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 13:34:04 -0600, Conan The Librarian
wrote:

wrote:

On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 12:05:21 -0600, Conan The Librarian
wrote:

IIRC, the OP mentioned a "divot", which seemed like a likely
candidate for a patch rather than a sanding dust filler. I honestly
don't see any reason why it shouldn't work.

You're not gluing it to the surrounding cork.

Then I may have misunderstood what you meant as to where you were
suggesting gluing the new piece/"Dutchman" - ???

I was probably not precise enough in my previous statement. You are
not gluing it to the cork on the sides, but rather the cork below the
patch. In woodworking inlays, you don't attempt to glue the edges of
the inlay, you glue it to the substrate. I'm assuming you would do the
same with cork, but correct me if I'm wrong.

Hmmm...first, I've never used, seen, or even heard of a Dutchman used to
repair an inlay, nor do I think it would be an appropriate use, but that
is certainly another of those "YMMV" things. In my experience, a
Dutchman is simply a way to repair/salvage something much larger (a
large, wide plank in a casegood, for example) that merits the handwork
necessary to fit it. And again, in my experience, a Dutchman would be
fully glued, much like a plug.

That said, given the time and effort to precisely cut the recept in the
handle and the corresponding cork "Dutchman," it would be more an goal
in and of itself rather than a practical repair method. And beyond
that, you would be relying on the underlying cork to hold the patch, and
if you didn't glue the edges, I think that would introduce another
weakness in that, unlike the very thin wood inlay where there is no real
edge to hold glue, nor is it necessary, the cork Dutchman would
susceptible to catching and tearing at the edge of the "patch" unless
glued at the edges.

Could, for argument's sake, a patch be done by this method? Yeah, sure.
Should it be done? That would be up to the individual, but I don't
think it would be worth it, and I know that it would be completely
unnecessary excess as far as repair goes, even forgetting the "glue
to...???" issue and whether it would hold.

Heck, you could probably argue for CNC mircocutters with 3D digitizing
input and all sorts of other cool ****, but how many double-naught
rod-building superheroes do you really need to change a lightbulb?

Oh for God's sake, you fatuous idiot! You cut out a flat bottomed section
with vertical ends including the blemish. You cut another flat bottomed
piece of fresh cork to fit and stand proud. You cement it in place using
contact cement. You sand it flush. Elapsed time......30-45
minutes.......for someone not particularly adept with tools. Given another
lifetime or two, YOU could probably even mange it.

Wolfgang

wrote:

On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 13:34:04 -0600, Conan The Librarian
wrote:

I was probably not precise enough in my previous statement. You are
not gluing it to the cork on the sides, but rather the cork below the
patch. In woodworking inlays, you don't attempt to glue the edges of
the inlay, you glue it to the substrate. I'm assuming you would do the
same with cork, but correct me if I'm wrong.

Hmmm...first, I've never used, seen, or even heard of a Dutchman used to
repair an inlay, nor do I think it would be an appropriate use, but that
is certainly another of those "YMMV" things.

I'm not saying you use a Dutchman to repair an inlay, I'm saying
that the technique is the same. (A Dutchman *is* an inlay.)

In my experience, a
Dutchman is simply a way to repair/salvage something much larger (a
large, wide plank in a casegood, for example) that merits the handwork
necessary to fit it. And again, in my experience, a Dutchman would be
fully glued, much like a plug.

You "fully glue" an inlay/Dutchman/whatever by gluing it to the
substrate. If you are trying to glue the edges, much of that surface is
endgrain, and attempting to glue endgrain is a waste of time.

That said, given the time and effort to precisely cut the recept in the
handle and the corresponding cork "Dutchman," it would be more an goal
in and of itself rather than a practical repair method.

That's your opinion, and you're welcome to it. Given that logic,
joining casework with dovetails is a goal in and of itself rather than a
practical method of joinery.

And beyond
that, you would be relying on the underlying cork to hold the patch, and
if you didn't glue the edges, I think that would introduce another
weakness in that, unlike the very thin wood inlay where there is no real
edge to hold glue, nor is it necessary, the cork Dutchman would
susceptible to catching and tearing at the edge of the "patch" unless
glued at the edges.

Not if it's sanded flush with the surrounding cork.

Could, for argument's sake, a patch be done by this method? Yeah, sure.
Should it be done? That would be up to the individual, but I don't
think it would be worth it, and I know that it would be completely
unnecessary excess as far as repair goes

Well then, don't do it. Leave it for those who have the necessary
skills/tools/desire.

Heck, you could probably argue for CNC mircocutters with 3D digitizing
input and all sorts of other cool ****, but how many double-naught
rod-building superheroes do you really need to change a lightbulb?

Cute, but hardly relevant, given that I'm advocating an ancient form
of repair that can be accomplished with a minimum of tools.


Chuck Vance

"Conan The Librarian" wrote in message
...
wrote:

I suspect one would find that using a Dutchman (and the name might give
a clue as to it making a "defect into a feature" versus simply being
frugal and better than wasting material/furniture/etc.) in a rod handle
to be more trouble than it'd be worth, even if it worked. I doubt it
would. If the handle is losing multiple "chunks," the cork is
deteriorating (and/or one of the hinkier pressed cork types) and such a
patch attempt is likely to do more damage by taking out more cork when
it fails.

IIRC, the OP mentioned a "divot", which seemed like a likely candidate
for a patch rather than a sanding dust filler. I honestly don't see any
reason why it shouldn't work. You're not gluing it to the surrounding
cork.

There are multiple grades of cork used for handles, good and not-so-good
variations of "pressed" cork, and cork tape. Assuming the most common
type, rings, and if the divot were large enough to make use of a "piece
patch" technique, it would be time to replace at least one ring, if not
the whole handle. The replacement of the cork itself is not hard at
all. The shaping can be a chore if done completely by hand, but power
tools can speed things up and access to a lathe can make things pretty
much a breeze. Depending on the rod, the amount of "deconstruction"
necessary for a complete replacement could be significant. If Tom had
asked for opinions on that, I'd have happily offered what I could. As
he asked a pointed question that had a single answer, I provided it.

Yes, you and the rest of ROFF. :-) I also offered what seemed to me
to be a fairly straightforward process for repairing a "divot". It may
seem like more trouble than it's worth to you, but I *like* fitting inlays
in wood. It's certainly more fun than creating a mess of sanding dust and
trying to form a paste of that and glue to fill a void.

I thought it might also work with cork.

YMODV.

If you have access in your library to "Advanced Custom Rod Building" by
Clemens, look on page 104, "Filling the cork." Also, "A Master's Guide
to Building a Bamboo Fly Rod" by Garrison and Carmichael, page 216-217,
"Cleaning and Repairing the Cork Grip." I haven't bothered to check
other such references, but I suspect they would detail the same standard
technique for filling minor defects.

Thanks for the info. My library doesn't have those books, but I'll
make a note of them.


Chuck Vance (who has one early 80's-vintage Fenwick HMG that needs
some serious cork work done; probably more like the ring replacement you
described above, as cockroaches or rats or *something* got into it in
storage and ate away huge pieces of the grip)

Mindful of the thoughtful observation provided earlier about the problematic
"repairer's access to
tools" and knowing how difficult it can be to find specialty items, I did a
bit of research and found the following probably useful site.....looks like
a fairly complete line of everything you should need:

http://www.cleansweepsupply.com/pages/skugroup7358.html

Good luck.......and feel free to consult with our helpful double-naught
experts if any further problems arise.

Wolfgang

Wolfgang wrote:

Mindful of the thoughtful observation provided earlier about the problematic
"repairer's access to
tools" and knowing how difficult it can be to find specialty items, I did a
bit of research and found the following probably useful site.....looks like
a fairly complete line of everything you should need:

http://www.cleansweepsupply.com/pages/skugroup7358.html

Good luck.......and feel free to consult with our helpful double-naught
experts if any further problems arise.

Heh, heh. :-) Thanks for the tool info. I think I've got about a
dozen of those lying around somewhere. But I'm disappointed; I was
counting on being able to make a major tool purchase just for this project.


Chuck Vance (maybe a lathe?)