Wal-Mart

On Tue, 25 Apr 2006 00:00:03 -0700, JR wrote:

MajorOz wrote:

Where, outside Marxist enclaves, did medical care become
a right guaranteed by government?


In pretty much all "developed" nations except the U.S. Some are better
at providing the care than others, of course, but still, I'd rather be
poor and sick in Italy than poor and sick in the U.S.

JR

I'm curious - have you been poor and sick in the US? Italy? Anywhere?
And if your answer is yes, where were you sick and with what passport?

TC,
R

wrote:
On Tue, 25 Apr 2006 00:00:03 -0700, JR wrote:

I'm curious - have you been poor and sick in the US?

Yes.

Italy?

No.

I picked Italy as an example, though, because I'm very familiar with the
medical system there, having lived (and been sick) there and knowing
many Italians and immigrants to Italy, "poor" by U.S. standards, who
deal regularly with that system.

I'd have picked Canada as an example, but it's spring there and I
thought I'd leave poor Petah to fish in peace.....

On Tue, 25 Apr 2006 09:05:37 -0700, JR wrote:

wrote:
On Tue, 25 Apr 2006 00:00:03 -0700, JR wrote:

I'm curious - have you been poor and sick in the US?

Yes.

Italy?

No.

I picked Italy as an example, though, because I'm very familiar with the
medical system there, having lived (and been sick) there and knowing
many Italians and immigrants to Italy, "poor" by U.S. standards, who
deal regularly with that system.

And please define "poor." And to save time, "poor by US standards"
ain't gonna impress me much - YMMV. What does that mean, anyway - they
can't afford Starbucks _daily_, to supersize their McHeartAttack Meal,
only 112 channels on cable/satellite, and the greatest horror of them
all, Capital One will only give them a regular old Visa...what's in your
wallet?

I'd have picked Canada as an example, but it's spring there and I
thought I'd leave poor Petah to fish in peace.....

Hey, we all know Canada is, by some stroke of fortune, paradise on
earth, so comparing ANYTHING to what's available there just isn't a fair
thing to do...hell, they aren't even burdened with real money...

TC,
R

wrote:

And please define "poor." And to save time, "poor by US standards"
ain't gonna impress me much - YMMV.

For the sake of this particular argument, let it mean anything from
"lower middle class" (and, yes, that can be relative across societies)
to "penniless."

Regardless of nit-picking definitions, I stand by my statement, slightly
rephrased, that I'd rather be a poor Italian sick in Italy than a poor
American sick in the U.S. I suspect I'd also rather be a poor German
sick in Germany than a poor American sick in the U.S., but I don't know
the medical system there--nor the economy--well enough to say with much
confidence.

The statement is based on experience. If you disagree, that's fine with me.

On Tue, 25 Apr 2006 10:39:37 -0700, JR wrote:

wrote:

And please define "poor." And to save time, "poor by US standards"
ain't gonna impress me much - YMMV.

For the sake of this particular argument, let it mean anything from
"lower middle class" (and, yes, that can be relative across societies)
to "penniless."

Regardless of nit-picking definitions, I stand by my statement, slightly
rephrased, that I'd rather be a poor Italian sick in Italy than a poor
American sick in the U.S. I suspect I'd also rather be a poor German
sick in Germany than a poor American sick in the U.S., but I don't know
the medical system there--nor the economy--well enough to say with much
confidence.

I mean this as a serious question - why didn't you remain in Italy and
become an Italian citizen, or, why don't you return and become one? IOW,
why wouldn't you rather be an Italian citizen as opposed to your current
(US?) citizenship?

The statement is based on experience. If you disagree, that's fine with me.

I don't agree or disagree because I haven't any basis to even form an
opinion on why _you_ would rather be a poor Italian sick in Italy than a
poor American sick in the US. Even if I had such information, your
preferences are yours and IMO, folks are perfectly entitled to their
preferences.

TC,
R

wrote:

I mean this as a serious question - why didn't you remain in Italy and
become an Italian citizen, or, why don't you return and become one? IOW,
why wouldn't you rather be an Italian citizen as opposed to your current
(US?) citizenship?

Honestly, I'd have thought you both educated *and* smart enough to be
above falling back not just on "love it or leave it," but implying
something like "if there is *even one thing* about the U.S. that you
don't believe is the absolute best in the world, then leave it."

For one thing, I am not--at least for the moment, thank God--poor. For
another, there's more to life (and even to being an American) than
health care. Fly fishing in Italy, for example, though nice enough,
can't hold a candle......

On Tue, 25 Apr 2006 11:11:13 -0700, JR wrote:

wrote:

I mean this as a serious question - why didn't you remain in Italy and
become an Italian citizen, or, why don't you return and become one? IOW,
why wouldn't you rather be an Italian citizen as opposed to your current
(US?) citizenship?

Honestly, I'd have thought you both educated *and* smart enough to be
above falling back not just on "love it or leave it," but implying
something like "if there is *even one thing* about the U.S. that you
don't believe is the absolute best in the world, then leave it."

Well, see, there you are...I've have no idea how educated *or* smart you
are, but I allowed that you wouldn't immediately read something into the
question that wasn't there, even with a flat-out statement that it was a
serious question. Heck, I didn't presume that you were a US citizen. I
simply asked why you didn't obtain Italian citizenship.

For one thing, I am not--at least for the moment, thank God--poor. For
another, there's more to life (and even to being an American) than
health care. Fly fishing in Italy, for example, though nice enough,
can't hold a candle......

And, seemingly unintentionally, you've answered my question: because
there's more to life than healthcare (and actually, it'd be your cost of
it, not its quality), and given a choice as to where to live, Italy
wouldn't be (and, in fact, wasn't) that choice.

Life is about choices, and if Walmart were forced to pay union wages and
provide healthcare benefits such as, for example, GM was/is, it might be
in the same financial condition as GM, and a loaf of bread or tube socks
at Walmart would be 42.99USD (and the loaf of bread would only be 8
slices and have electrical problems, and the socks would only get 13 MPG
highway). The public, and not limited to the US public, has decided it
likes 69 cent large white loaves and tube socks, and thus, in the US,
that choice means, among other things, no healthcare for every employee.
It really isn't a matter of fair or unfair, simply the population
choosing where it wishes to allocate its capital.

You can attempt to "cafeteria plan" as to why this country or that is
better than another, but when the total picture is considered, the US is
still a pretty good place to call home.

TC,
R
....and I'm never surprised at the number of people who talk about how
much better it is somewhere else...where they don't choose to live...

wrote in message
...

...I mean this as a serious question....

HA HA HA! DAMN!, you crack me up!

I don't agree or disagree because I haven't any basis to even form an
opinion on why _you_ would rather be a poor Italian sick in Italy than a
poor American sick in the US. Even if I had such information, your
preferences are yours and IMO, folks are perfectly entitled to their
preferences.

In other words, you have absolutely nothing to say.

You COULD have done it with fewer words, you know.

Wolfgang

"JR" wrote in message ...
wrote:

And please define "poor." And to save time, "poor by US standards"
ain't gonna impress me much - YMMV.

For the sake of this particular argument, let it mean anything from
"lower middle class" (and, yes, that can be relative across societies)
to "penniless."

Regardless of nit-picking definitions, I stand by my statement, slightly
rephrased, that I'd rather be a poor Italian sick in Italy than a poor
American sick in the U.S. I suspect I'd also rather be a poor German
sick in Germany than a poor American sick in the U.S., but I don't know
the medical system there--nor the economy--well enough to say with much
confidence.

The statement is based on experience. If you disagree, that's fine with
me.





I would rather be a sick destitute American than a destitute Italian.
Having used the Italian health system as a US citizen on vacation, I have
high regards for their health system. But the system is paid for with high
taxes. $3+ a gallon on fuel, and high tax rates. How many MRI machines per
capita? In the 1970's there were 7 in the San Francisco Bay area, there was
one in British Columbia. How long to wait for a major procedure? If you
are poor in America, you have excellent access to medical care. No
hospital will or can turn you away. The State and Federal government's
transfer your tax money to the providers to pay for the care. If you are
middle class, and have assets, then you can be in trouble. If no insurance,
the providers will take your assets if you can not pay. After the assets
are gone, then you join the first catagory and get the taxpayers to pay for
your care. And with more facilities available, then you are more likely as
a poor person to survive a dibilitating desease or injury here than in a lot
of other countries with socialized medical care. Is why Canadians with
money come to the USA for care. No 2-3 year wait for a knee replacement, or
a 9 month wait for an MRI. For the poor, we have socialized medicine.
MediCal in California, called something else in every other state.

"Calif Bill" wrote:
the system is paid for with high taxes. $3+ a gallon on fuel, and high
tax rates.

(gasp) You mean middle class Italians don't drive around in 6000 pound
SUV's like middle class Americans do, just because they can? What a backward
and contemptible society they must be!