And you said it couldn't happen

On Sun, 21 May 2006 14:25:36 +0800, "riverman" wrote:


"Calif Bill" wrote in message
k.net...


And are not those British taxes deductible, or a credit against US taxes?

Hi Bill (et al),
I wasn't going to discuss this here, because I know that its beyond
understanding of most folks in the states. They hear 'tax exemption' all
their sympathies go out the window, and are replaced with thoughts like 'I
pay my taxes, you should pay yours' and 'gee, I wish I had an $80K
exemption' and they miss the details. Its the inability or unwillingness to
consider those details that enables things like this tax law to get passed
in the first place.

Let me explain the details one time, then I'm EOT because the talk I've seen
here shows me that my frustration is not understood nor sympathized with,
and instead (knowing the history of this forum), people here love to get all
piranha on each other when they see someone truly upset, as I am.

First of all, and speaking only for myself, I'm not getting "piranha" on
you, I'm simply reacting and commenting on what _you_ brought up. First,
you chose to be an expat and the rules were much the same when you chose
it. And there's a possibility that your taxes won't be affected in the
least:

"But under the new system, this tax exemption on housing will be capped
at $11,536, although is some cases the Internal Revenue Service could
adjust it based on geographic differences in the cost of living."

Yes, I realize _could adjust_ and "the IRS" in the same sentence aren't
much comfort, but I'd offer that generally the IRS winds up being, at
the end of day, somewhat fair, either by accident or from external
pressure. Look at per diem rates for travel deductions.

And something else from the article you cited:

"But many Americans abroad protest that it unfairly targets them. The
Joint Committee on Taxation in the U.S. Congress estimated that the new
measures would cost $200 million a year in taxes for the 4.1 million
Americans - excluding military personnel and Foreign Service officers -
living abroad."

That's an average of 50USD per taxpayer, and from the article, it
appears that those in the higher income range with the bigger perq packs
are going to carry the lion's share of the burden.

And there's the "The United States is the only developed country that
imposes worldwide income tax on its citizens working overseas." bit.
First of all, it's misleading. Ask a Brit about working in France or
vice-versa, what with that little slice of heaven, tax-wise. And if
either one fails to properly plan, it can get _really_ ugly. But would
either be considered to be working "overseas" as contemplated by the
article? IAC, citizens of "developed" countries are most certainly
taxed on income earned outside of that developed country and in these
countries, there are much the same complaints as well as suggestions
offered as to how to avoid taxation issues.

One example comes to mind. We are friends with a family whose most
senior living generation were born in eastern Europe of a German father
and an English mother pre-WW2, but went to New Zealand in the late 30s.
The three senior siblings live in NZ, Switzerland, and the US, having
married citizens of those respective countries. The kids (my
generation) began life as NZers, but now live in Belgium (works there,
married and divorced from, but still quite friendly with, a Swiss
citizen), England (single, works worldwide), France (married to a German
citizen, both work in Paris), and Australia (married to a NZer, both
work there). Of the next generation, only one child is of age, and she
grew up in Belgium, was graduated from college in England, and now works
in Japan. I've yet to hear any say they happily paid taxes with a smile
on their face. And we have friends from just about every corner of the
globe, and I've yet to run across anyone, of any socio-economic class,
who feels they are being unfairly undertaxed.

What's the bottom line? For me, it's when someone who has made their
own bed complains that it isn't comfortable AND blames it on someone
else. I know for a fact that a teacher (for example, a US high school
teacher with a Masters in a mid-sized district - "middle of the road")
in the US can retire fairly comfortably with a reasonable bit of
discipline and planning (a regular contribution into an
educational-employee-only TSA, for example) and can, with some serious
discipline and planning, retire a millionaire with an rise in
"lifestyle." If the path you chose precludes this, again, that's on
you, not Bush, the IRS, "rat *******s," or anyone else.

FWIW, Wayne's advice some professional help is good advice and might
be what you need. If you can't afford the fees upfront, perhaps look to
investment-type advisors who make their money when you make yours.
Google up "tax sheltered annuities for educational employees" for ideas.
I realize that TSAs themselves may not be what you need, but it'll give
you a place to start.

TC,
R

...I'd offer that generally the IRS winds up being, at
the end of day, somewhat fair, either by accident or from external
pressure.

HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! Time after time after
time after time......

How DO you do it?

And something else from the article you cited:


"But many Americans abroad protest that it unfairly targets them. The
Joint Committee on Taxation in the U.S. Congress estimated that the new
measures would cost $200 million a year in taxes for the 4.1 million
Americans - excluding military personnel and Foreign Service officers -
living abroad."


That's an average of 50USD per taxpayer...

Average? Uh oh. Hey steeeeeeevieeee!

and from the article, it
appears that those in the higher income range with the bigger perq packs
are going to carry the lion's share of the burden.

Tsk, tsk. One is forced to wonder how the dears bear up under the
strain.

...And we have friends from just about every corner of the
globe,

Yeah? Try telling them you ****ed away the family giblets sometime.
You'll see what "friends" means.

and I've yet to run across anyone, of any socio-economic class,
who feels they are being unfairly undertaxed.

Profundity, thy name is dicklet.

What's the bottom line? For me, it's when someone who has made their
own bed complains that it isn't comfortable

One is forced to wonder......have you ever actually SEEN a bed being
made?

Wolfgang
if god didn't want them shot, she wouldn't let ducks sit.

wrote in message
...
On Sun, 21 May 2006 14:25:36 +0800, "riverman" wrote:

What's the bottom line? For me, it's when someone who has made their
own bed complains that it isn't comfortable AND blames it on someone
else.

I apprecitate that, but it's nonsense in this case, as this isn't the bed I
chose to lie in. I have a retirement strategy, and I'm being very careful
about it. The bed I have been making has been reasonably comfortable, and
has allowed me the same opportunity as any other working american to retire
reasonably. But they changed this tax law midcareer in a manner that
unfairly and seriously impacts certain expat workers, and has significant
impact on our earnings, hence our savings and retirement potential. And it
was a ****up; in an effort to actually target a group of people who were
getting a potentially unbalanced perk (expat execs), this new tax law
blindsides a large portion of people who have a savings potential not
significantly different than if they were stateside. If they were to
simultaneously allow us to claim deductions that stateside workers can
claim: ROTH or other tax-sheltered accounts, itemized deductions on our
mortages, etc, so that we could legally protect ourselves from this tax,
then it would be a fair exchange. But the regular joe, working for an
average wage in a country with exorbitant rental rates is right in the
crosshairs. There are very few of us, which is why we aren't represented in
the "$50 per taxpayer" estimate.

I know for a fact that a teacher (for example, a US high school
teacher with a Masters in a mid-sized district - "middle of the road")
in the US can retire fairly comfortably with a reasonable bit of
discipline and planning (a regular contribution into an
educational-employee-only TSA, for example) and can, with some serious
discipline and planning, retire a millionaire with an rise in
"lifestyle." If the path you chose precludes this, again, that's on
you, not Bush, the IRS, "rat *******s," or anyone else.

The path I chose, and the investments I am allowed to participate in, are
dictated by the tax laws. And if those rat *******s had not changed the
rules midstream, or do not make special compensation for those of us who
weren't being targeted, then I might still be able to stay in HK and work
toward a similar retirement as your friends after 25 years overseas as I
have been planning to do. As it is, an additional $6000 housing tax added to
the $3000 I already pay puts my tax debt at the same level as people in the
US making twice my salary, as they have tax shelters. That's what's bull****
about this: it going to force people to move away from the better-paying
jobs and work in countries where housing is cheap. With lower housing costs
comes lower salaries, and lower savings, which means a worse retirement; it
can change everything. The impact of this new tax to HK workers is very far
reaching; more than any tax proposal I have ever heard of. If this was
passed back home and impacted the average worker like it will impact us
here, there would be armed insurrection. Its on par with removing the
standard and itemized deductions, and jacking the tax tables thousands of
dollars.


FWIW, Wayne's advice some professional help is good advice and might
be what you need. If you can't afford the fees upfront, perhaps look to
investment-type advisors who make their money when you make yours.
Google up "tax sheltered annuities for educational employees" for ideas.
I realize that TSAs themselves may not be what you need, but it'll give
you a place to start.


Yeah, its one definite place to start, and I can afford the fees; I'm not a
charity case. Replanning is absolutely in the works, as is a career rethink.
I don't believe folks realize the impact magnitude of this tax, but its a
reality, and I now have to look hard at how to absorb it into my career
plan. I certainly can't afford to stay in HK, as this tax increase eats up a
gargantuan chunk of what I was putting away for retirement, and puts my
savings potential back to where it was when I was in Congo. But I can't
afford to work for many more years in those lowpaying countries.

I'm not asking for anything from anyone here...I'm just absolutely bull****
that this got passed and at the impact it will have, and wanted to vent. I
understand if the realities of this are too distant for any of you to really
appreciate, but they are for real. And I don't hold out any hope that the
IRS will save the day. I also appreciate that you weren't going piranha on
me, thanks for the sounding board, and I'll let this topic die now.

--riverman

...The bed I have been making has been reasonably comfortable, and
has allowed me the same opportunity as any other working american to retire
reasonably.

Well, see, about that.....

Not every American has the opportunity to retire reasonably.

Hadn't you heard about poverty and stuff?

...I'm not asking for anything from anyone here...

Ah! O.k., so, no letters to your congressional representatives this
time?

Wolfgang
so much for eot.

On Sun, 21 May 2006 23:07:44 +0800, "riverman" wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 21 May 2006 14:25:36 +0800, "riverman" wrote:

What's the bottom line? For me, it's when someone who has made their
own bed complains that it isn't comfortable AND blames it on someone
else.

I apprecitate that, but it's nonsense in this case, as this isn't the bed I
chose to lie in. I have a retirement strategy, and I'm being very careful
about it. The bed I have been making has been reasonably comfortable, and
has allowed me the same opportunity as any other working american to retire
reasonably. But they changed this tax law midcareer in a manner that
unfairly and seriously impacts certain expat workers,

SNIP

As it is, an additional $6000 housing tax added to
the $3000 I already pay puts my tax debt

As I read it, there isn't anything fixed yet, and knowing how the IRS
works, I'd offer that taking a wait-and-see attitude might be a little
easier on you. OTOH, _IF_ they actually wind up hosing a large section
of expats in situations similar to yours, it would be a different
arrangement than the one you chose, and calling "bull****" then would be
a different story. But until the rules are promulgated, you don't know
what the heck is going to happen. Again, look at the "frequent flyer"
flap and the ending result. I'm can't speak for everyone and every
company, but when the dust settled, I think everyone was, well...willing
to let it lie as something they would live with ("happy" and "tax
collector," be they the IRS or whomever, don't really get on to well in
the same sentence).

SNIP

I'm not asking for anything from anyone here...I'm just absolutely bull****
that this got passed and at the impact it will have, and wanted to vent. I
understand if the realities of this are too distant for any of you to really
appreciate, but they are for real. And I don't hold out any hope that the
IRS will save the day.

Excuse me? Too distant for _anyone_ to understand but you? Where the
hell do you think you are, Pluto? And what do you think you're doing
that sets you so far apart from _anyone_ that _no one_ else could
understand? This is part of that attitude that gets any potential
sympathy washed away, but hey, like I said, it's your choice...

TC,
R

"riverman" wrote in message ...

I'm just reacting because I'm feeling betrayed by my government again,
and bull**** about how damn hard it is to get ahead in this freaking life,
and I'm talking to my primary community since I don't live in the US,
surrounded by neighbors and friends.

Sure, someone sat in their office and said "let's screw Myron, after all
he's a liberal and low paid school teacher living abroad. He can;t hurt us."

Cannibals, and zero tax bill if you lived in the US?

Welcome to the real world where the wealthiest, the poorest, and every one
in between has some kind of worry. Look on the bright side too, since you
live at a low income level, you won;t need as much to retire on plus you;re
still young enough to come back to the states and qualify for a teaching
pension should you so desire.

At the end of the day, you're harping about something that your
comprehension of is seriously lacking. Whatever it is you teach do it well
but leave the tax code, retirements, and **** to the experts on your behalf.
I sat down and read some of the new law last night as one of the folks I
filed an extension for is subject to the AMT (at a total income of 85K per
year!) and refreshed my memory on someother things IRS like. You're ****ing
and moaning and making it sound like it worse than it really is. Will you
have to pay some taxes you don't pay now? Probably. Can you and your
employer think out of the box and find a way in your situation legally and
ethically? Probably.

You've got a good "woe is me" or "holier than thou" attitude until someone
calls bull**** on you, get over it and get professional financial help.

Seriously Myron, you just post stuff like this to give Wayne K a
chubby, right? g
--
Charlie...
www.chocphoto.com

Charlie Choc wrote:
Seriously Myron, you just post stuff like this to give Wayne K a
chubby, right? g

LMAO.

Good one, Choc.

--
Ken Fortenberry

"Charlie Choc" wrote in message
oups.com...
Seriously Myron, you just post stuff like this to give Wayne K a
chubby, right? g
--
Charlie...
www.chocphoto.com

FY Choc

Wayne Knight wrote:
"riverman" wrote in message ...

I'm just reacting because I'm feeling betrayed by my government again,
and bull**** about how damn hard it is to get ahead in this freaking life,
and I'm talking to my primary community since I don't live in the US,
surrounded by neighbors and friends.

Sure, someone sat in their office and said "let's screw Myron, after all
he's a liberal and low paid school teacher living abroad. He can;t hurt us."

Cannibals, and zero tax bill if you lived in the US?

Welcome to the real world where the wealthiest, the poorest, and every one
in between has some kind of worry. Look on the bright side too, since you
live at a low income level, you won;t need as much to retire on plus you;re
still young enough to come back to the states and qualify for a teaching
pension should you so desire.

At the end of the day, you're harping about something that your
comprehension of is seriously lacking. Whatever it is you teach do it well
but leave the tax code, retirements, and **** to the experts on your behalf.
I sat down and read some of the new law last night as one of the folks I
filed an extension for is subject to the AMT (at a total income of 85K per
year!) and refreshed my memory on someother things IRS like. You're ****ing
and moaning and making it sound like it worse than it really is. Will you
have to pay some taxes you don't pay now? Probably. Can you and your
employer think out of the box and find a way in your situation legally and
ethically? Probably.

You've got a good "woe is me" or "holier than thou" attitude until someone
calls bull**** on you, get over it and get professional financial help.

Aww, comon, Wayne. Tell me how you really feel. :-)

OK, OK, so I'm panicking. No argument there...I hate when really big
blips like this come on the radar screen. FWIW, there was a meeting
this weekend with the school super, some board members and most of the
senior American staff, and the consensus was:
a) don't panic yet. We don't know all the details, but
b) this is probably going to be bigger than we realize
c) and if the implementation is what it looks like it will be, the
enrollment in the school will probably drop about 20-25% and the
majority of senior US staff will leave in the next 2 years.
d) but wait and see how the IRS accommodates places like HK first.

So their take on the potential impact is similar to mine, and their
advice is similar to yours. Fair enough. The sky might not be falling
quite yet.

--riverman