casting help needed

I am an experienced caster with 25 years experience. Lately I upraded my old
8 foot #3 trout rod with a faster actioned modern #4. I found that I changed
my casting technique with this rod to use the wrist slightly in a controlled
manner to work the rod more for its extra distance. I got bad wind-knot
problems and tangled leaders with the really tight loops. I was getting
great distance and speed with the flyline itself, but the leader was getting
really messed up in comparison with the wider loops from the old slow #3.

Is my technique wrong, or is my flyline too light for the rod? I am
suspecting that the line (SA Aircell 2 Ivory #4 DT) is too light for the rod
(Missionary 8'3" #4), and hence I feel like I need to work the rod with
slight wrist flex. Wrist flex can put waves in the flyline and mess things
up at the leader end, so maybe I need a heavier line? I never casted a fast
rod like this before so don't know what the effect of the blank might be.

Anyhow, my general point is that when I am casting very fast tight loops
with this rod / line / leader, I am often getting tangles. Is this usual
with fast fly rods? If so, how can it be corrected?

In article , MichaelM
wrote:
I am an experienced caster with 25 years experience. Lately I upraded my old
8 foot #3 trout rod with a faster actioned modern #4. I found that I changed
my casting technique with this rod to use the wrist slightly in a controlled
manner to work the rod more for its extra distance. I got bad wind-knot
problems and tangled leaders with the really tight loops. I was getting
great distance and speed with the flyline itself, but the leader was getting
really messed up in comparison with the wider loops from the old slow #3.

Is my technique wrong, or is my flyline too light for the rod? I am
suspecting that the line (SA Aircell 2 Ivory #4 DT) is too light for the rod
(Missionary 8'3" #4), and hence I feel like I need to work the rod with
slight wrist flex. Wrist flex can put waves in the flyline and mess things
up at the leader end, so maybe I need a heavier line? I never casted a fast
rod like this before so don't know what the effect of the blank might be.

I think you've sussed it. Sounds like you're underlined.

Anyhow, my general point is that when I am casting very fast tight loops
with this rod / line / leader, I am often getting tangles. Is this usual
with fast fly rods? If so, how can it be corrected?

Well, it *might* be usual but it isn't what's supposed to happen ;-)

Buy a couple of mill ends - or even borrow some lines for an afternoon. You
might find #5 or even a #6 suits you better. Then use a cheapie/mill end
for a while 'til you're sure before you pay for anything special.

From another point of view, fast rods throwing tight loops are much more
demanding of technique and harder to handle in less than ideal conditions.
Whilst I have a couple I find I use my softer rods most of the time for this
very reason - I can be as sloppy as I like and generally get away with it.

You could arrange a session with a casting instructor and arrange too to
try some of his lines and to have him cast yours to confirm your suspicions.
(Top casters using broom handles show you can cast with anything at a pinch
but these are circus tricks and should be performed in a spangly leotard -
you won't find them genuinely fishing with casting-competition gear.)

Cheerio,

--

In article , Nogood Boyo
wrote:
On Mon, 29 May 2006 at 10:40:21 in uk.rec.fishing.game Derek Moody
wrote:
(Top casters using broom handles show you can cast with anything at a pinch
but these are circus tricks and should be performed in a spangly leotard -
you won't find them genuinely fishing with casting-competition gear.)

Best I saw was a full flyline (30 yds) aerialised with a knitting needle
and a top ring whipped on it.

I wish I hadn't written that now - I keep getting visions of certain
illustrious casting gurus in spangly leotards - not pretty. I may not sleep
at all well tonight.

Cheerio,

--

In article , MichaelM
writes
I am an experienced caster with 25 years experience. Lately I upraded my old
8 foot #3 trout rod with a faster actioned modern #4. I found that I changed
my casting technique with this rod to use the wrist slightly in a controlled
manner to work the rod more for its extra distance. I got bad wind-knot
problems and tangled leaders with the really tight loops. I was getting
great distance and speed with the flyline itself, but the leader was getting
really messed up in comparison with the wider loops from the old slow #3.

Is my technique wrong, or is my flyline too light for the rod? I am
suspecting that the line (SA Aircell 2 Ivory #4 DT) is too light for the rod
(Missionary 8'3" #4), and hence I feel like I need to work the rod with
slight wrist flex. Wrist flex can put waves in the flyline and mess things
up at the leader end, so maybe I need a heavier line? I never casted a fast
rod like this before so don't know what the effect of the blank might be.

Anyhow, my general point is that when I am casting very fast tight loops
with this rod / line / leader, I am often getting tangles. Is this usual
with fast fly rods? If so, how can it be corrected?


Might I guess that the so called "wind knots" occur at time point of
delivery of the fly and not during any false casting? If so I would
suggest you are trying to put too much power into the delivery cast.

Just deliver the fly with the same effort as the false casts. By all
means build up the line speed but don't punch the last forward cast too
hard.
--
Bill Grey
http://www.billboy.co.uk

In article , Nogood Boyo
writes
On Mon, 29 May 2006 at 10:40:21 in uk.rec.fishing.game Derek Moody
wrote:
(Top casters using broom handles show you can cast with anything at a pinch
but these are circus tricks and should be performed in a spangly leotard -
you won't find them genuinely fishing with casting-competition gear.)

Best I saw was a full flyline (30 yds) aerialised with a knitting
needle and a top ring whipped on it.


I've bought a proper rod since then :-)
--
Bill Grey
http://www.billboy.co.uk

"W. D. Grey" wrote in message
...
In article , MichaelM
writes
I am an experienced caster with 25 years experience. Lately I upraded my
old
8 foot #3 trout rod with a faster actioned modern #4. I found that I
changed
my casting technique with this rod to use the wrist slightly in a
controlled
manner to work the rod more for its extra distance. I got bad wind-knot
problems and tangled leaders with the really tight loops. I was getting
great distance and speed with the flyline itself, but the leader was
getting
really messed up in comparison with the wider loops from the old slow #3.

Is my technique wrong, or is my flyline too light for the rod? I am
suspecting that the line (SA Aircell 2 Ivory #4 DT) is too light for the
rod
(Missionary 8'3" #4), and hence I feel like I need to work the rod with
slight wrist flex. Wrist flex can put waves in the flyline and mess
things
up at the leader end, so maybe I need a heavier line? I never casted a
fast
rod like this before so don't know what the effect of the blank might be.

Anyhow, my general point is that when I am casting very fast tight loops
with this rod / line / leader, I am often getting tangles. Is this usual
with fast fly rods? If so, how can it be corrected?


Might I guess that the so called "wind knots" occur at time point of
delivery of the fly and not during any false casting? If so I would
suggest you are trying to put too much power into the delivery cast.

Just deliver the fly with the same effort as the false casts. By all
means build up the line speed but don't punch the last forward cast too
hard.

Wind knots forming on the delivery cast is an interesting idea. I think I
understand what you mean; i.e. that the leader fully extends and the fly
still having excessive momentum "springs back" as it tries to stretch the
fully extended leader. This slight springing back of the fly does so
slightly upwards in motion too and falls back through the loop created in
the tippet section.

If I was using a weighted nymph, I could imagine this happening, and it is
interesting to think about. However at the moment I am using hawthorn dry,
and the air resistance of this fly means that the leader never fully extends
at distance at all.

Maybe I misunderstand exactly what you mean by this in the strict sense, if
so, could you explain further about wind knots on the delivery-cast?

"Derek Moody" wrote in message
...

From another point of view, fast rods throwing tight loops are much more
demanding of technique and harder to handle in less than ideal conditions.
Whilst I have a couple I find I use my softer rods most of the time for
this
very reason - I can be as sloppy as I like and generally get away with it.

I have an 8 weight nine footer that I use for general purpose heavy duty
flyfishing. I was up in Scotland a couple of years ago fishing for sea trout
on the Ythan estuary; we had a scouse ghillie. Initially we were using
spinners at high tide from the boats, but later when the tide ran out, we
fished the channel with flies. I was using my #8 and the ghillie asked if he
could see what the blank was like. He double-hauled the hell out of it, and
I could see already that my leader was taking a beating! You know, it sort
of reminded me of when being a teenager and getting your first 125
motorbike. All your mates want to have a go, but if they rev the arse off it
and speed off, you cringe, and in the least count the cost of tyre
erosion...

When I was returned the rod, I saw immediately that the leader was in a
really fearful condition: convulated loops and complex knots were the main
structures immediately apparent, but also there was a good spattering of the
common wind-knot in heavy concentration in the tippet to 3 foot. The leader
was terminally ill, and I had to snip it off at the needle-knot and
completely re-build. The ghillie did later apologise for completely ruining
my leader.

In article , MichaelM
writes
Maybe I misunderstand exactly what you mean by this in the strict sense, if
so, could you explain further about wind knots on the delivery-cast?

Can't say exactly why they occur but they do. So often after a bit of
false casting with a good rhythm )to build the revs up) some casters put
that good bit extra in the delivery cast and that's when the trouble
occurs. That is the only way I can describe it. I don't think it
matter whether the fly is weighted or not.
--
Bill Grey
http://www.billboy.co.uk