Knot to replace Blood Knot?

riverman wrote:
http://www.geocities.com/roo_two/Zeppelin.html

I just tried it on two pieces of 4x, and it seems very strong and is
quite easy to tie. Its not as simple as the Surgeons Knot, but it has
the advantage that it leaves a linear knot, and its much easier than a
Blood Knot.

What do others think...is this a good leader-tippet or tippet-tippet
knot? I wonder if its even worth doing two or more passes through
rather than the one.

--riverman

I just did a very non technical test on that knot. I tied it leaving me
with a loop 15 lb. test mono. I stuck a screw drive handle in each end
of the loop and pulled. It snapped at the knot every time. I did the
same test with a 5 turn blood knot. It also snapped at the knot, but
with a significantly higher tension needed. I realize this is about as
basic of a test as you can get, but the difference was enough, that I
could easily feel it.

Most of time I use a double surgeon's knot. It's easy to tie, and if
tied correctly(must be seated evenly), it's close to a 100% knot.

brians

briansfly wrote:

I just did a very non technical test on that knot. I tied it leaving me
with a loop 15 lb. test mono. I stuck a screw drive handle in each end
of the loop and pulled. It snapped at the knot every time. I did the
same test with a 5 turn blood knot. It also snapped at the knot, but
with a significantly higher tension needed. I realize this is about as
basic of a test as you can get, but the difference was enough, that I
could easily feel it.

An easy way to get an objective comparison between knots is to tie both
knots in one strand of tippet and pull to failure. That's what I did to
compare this knot with a double Surgeon's. The Surgeon's won. (One trial.)

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

rw wrote:

briansfly wrote:


I just did a very non technical test on that knot. I tied it leaving
me with a loop 15 lb. test mono. I stuck a screw drive handle in each
end of the loop and pulled. It snapped at the knot every time. I did
the same test with a 5 turn blood knot. It also snapped at the knot,
but with a significantly higher tension needed. I realize this is
about as basic of a test as you can get, but the difference was
enough, that I could easily feel it.


An easy way to get an objective comparison between knots is to tie both
knots in one strand of tippet and pull to failure. That's what I did to
compare this knot with a double Surgeon's. The Surgeon's won. (One trial.)

Yup, i've done that too. All I had at my desk was 15 to 40 lb Trilene
Big Game mono(I use this to make my striper leaders). I figured tying it
in a loop would be a lot easier way to break it.

Back to Myron's question about multiple passes on the Zeppelin knot. I
tried it. The knot is very hard to seat properly, and it becomes bulky.
It did seem to have a higher break strength.

brians

There are three variations of ways to tie a Surgeon's knot that I know
of. The easy and quick way is to make a very large overlap between the
two lines, form a very large loop, and pull the strands through together
with your fingers. This wastes a lot of tippet and leader material,
which I don't like.

A more material-efficient way is to use a relatively small overlap, make
a small loop, and thread the strands through one at a time. This takes a
lot longer.

I've converged on an intermediate method. I make an intermediate size
loop and use my hemostat instead of my fingers to pull the strands
through together.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

briansfly wrote:
rw wrote:

briansfly wrote:


I just did a very non technical test on that knot. I tied it leaving
me with a loop 15 lb. test mono. I stuck a screw drive handle in each
end of the loop and pulled. It snapped at the knot every time. I did
the same test with a 5 turn blood knot. It also snapped at the knot,
but with a significantly higher tension needed. I realize this is
about as basic of a test as you can get, but the difference was
enough, that I could easily feel it.


An easy way to get an objective comparison between knots is to tie both
knots in one strand of tippet and pull to failure. That's what I did to
compare this knot with a double Surgeon's. The Surgeon's won. (One trial.)

Yup, i've done that too. All I had at my desk was 15 to 40 lb Trilene
Big Game mono(I use this to make my striper leaders). I figured tying it
in a loop would be a lot easier way to break it.

Back to Myron's question about multiple passes on the Zeppelin knot. I
tried it. The knot is very hard to seat properly, and it becomes bulky.
It did seem to have a higher break strength.

brians

Hmm, which is stronger; a surgeon's or a blood knot? I think factors
other than breaking strength play a role, because if the blood knot is
stronger, then the only reason to use a surgeon's because its easier to
tie. And if the surgeon's is stronger, then the only reason to use a
blood knot is to have a straight connection. If this Zeppelin thing is
weaker than both, but not significantly so, then it might be a good
compromise for, say, small spooky trout where you want a nice straight
leader, and maximum breaking strength is not necessary, but you don't
want to bother tying a blood knot.

I'll try some tests myself to see how it feels. Did you guys find it
significantly weaker? I once thought about using a 'double grapevine'
(also called a 'fisherman's knot') for tippet-tippet, but was astounded
to discover that it had almost no resilience at all! Try it
http://www.aqvi55.dsl.pipex.com/knot.../fisherman.htm

--riverman

riverman wrote:

Hmm, which is stronger; a surgeon's or a blood knot? I think factors
other than breaking strength play a role, because if the blood knot is
stronger, then the only reason to use a surgeon's because its easier to
tie.

A well-tied Surgeon's is close to 100%. That's tough to beat.

And if the surgeon's is stronger, then the only reason to use a
blood knot is to have a straight connection.

A well-tied Surgeon's makes an excellent straight connection. I didn't
used to think so before I really learned how to tie it. Are you sure
you're tying it correctly?

If this Zeppelin thing is
weaker than both, but not significantly so, then it might be a good
compromise for, say, small spooky trout where you want a nice straight
leader, and maximum breaking strength is not necessary, but you don't
want to bother tying a blood knot.

I think it's significantly weaker. Very significantly. Of course, that
opinion is based on one trial. :-)

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

On Thu, 03 Aug 2006 21:26:12 -0600, rw
wrote:

well-tied Surgeon's makes an excellent straight connection. I didn't
used to think so before I really learned how to tie it. Are you sure
you're tying it correctly?


I started using a triple Surgeons this year... so far it appears to be
a bit stronger than the standard double surgeons.The trick is to pull
both tag ends through the loop together at the same time, at least
twice I don't have the where with all to tye a blood knot tippet to
leader connection. I mean in the wind, at dusk...just too much
trouble.
I have buddies who swear by the BN. They carry the little tool and
spend huge amounts of prime time tying tippets on...
Harry
troutflies com

bones wrote:
On Thu, 03 Aug 2006 21:26:12 -0600, rw
wrote:


well-tied Surgeon's makes an excellent straight connection. I didn't
used to think so before I really learned how to tie it. Are you sure
you're tying it correctly?



I started using a triple Surgeons this year...

Why not? It only takes almost 50% more time than a double Surgeons's. :-)

The key to a good Surgeon's Knot is seating it. Both loops should seat
uniformly. Easier said than done.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.