Knot to replace Blood Knot?

On Thu, 3 Aug 2006 13:04:54 -0700, "Tom Nakashima"
wrote:

Can you take it picture of it or find it on the web...we would like to see
it.

Here is one made of plastic and stainless steel.

http://www.knottying.com/

The top of the yellow plastic is spring loaded and slides down
revealing a jaw on the tip of the stainless steel end, used to grasp
the line and pull it through the loops of either a clinch knot or a
double surgeon's knot.

I prefer my all brass model, but the plastic one works just as well.
And, with a little practice, so does your forceps.

Dave

"Dave LaCourse" wrote in message
...
Here is one made of plastic and stainless steel.

http://www.knottying.com/

The top of the yellow plastic is spring loaded and slides down
revealing a jaw on the tip of the stainless steel end, used to grasp
the line and pull it through the loops of either a clinch knot or a
double surgeon's knot.

I prefer my all brass model, but the plastic one works just as well.
And, with a little practice, so does your forceps.

Dave

Thanks Dave, looks good, the yellow tool that is, might be kindda hard to
tie knots with the Weedless Heavyweight Charger Lure
-tom

On Thu, 3 Aug 2006 13:57:49 -0700, "Tom Nakashima"
wrote:

might be kindda hard to
tie knots with the Weedless Heavyweight Charger Lure

And cast with anything less than a 10 weight.

d;o)

riverman wrote:
http://www.geocities.com/roo_two/Zeppelin.html

I just tried it on two pieces of 4x, and it seems very strong and is
quite easy to tie. Its not as simple as the Surgeons Knot, but it has
the advantage that it leaves a linear knot, and its much easier than a
Blood Knot.

What do others think...is this a good leader-tippet or tippet-tippet
knot? I wonder if its even worth doing two or more passes through
rather than the one.

No opinion on efficacy of the knot. However, I did look at the website
and then checked the information presented there against Ashley. I was
mildy suprised to find that the knot wasn't listed under either of the
names given on the website. According to the footnote on the website,
the knot was in use in the 30s (not surprising for a knot named after
Zeppelins). "The Ashley Book of Knots" was first published in 1944.

Another note on the website states that the Zeppelin knot is not the
same thing as the Rigger's bend/Hunter's bend. This one DOES show up
in Ashley under the label 1425A, described on page 260 and illustrated
on the following page. Looking at the illustration, I'm inclined to
agree both with the statement that it is not the same knot and that it
looks pretty much the same upon completion. However, knots are
tricky....that's why they're fun. As any knot maven will declare
(correctly), a knot that differs in any respect.....even in the tiniest
detail.....is a different knot. But....and this is a very important
qualification.....that is true only of the finished product. How you
get there doesn't matter. And two processes that look radically
different in illustration (knots are notoriously difficult to
illustrate anyway) may end up in identical products.

For what it's worth.

Wolfgang
is there a topologist in the house?

riverman wrote:
http://www.geocities.com/roo_two/Zeppelin.html

I just tried it on two pieces of 4x, and it seems very strong and is
quite easy to tie. Its not as simple as the Surgeons Knot, but it has
the advantage that it leaves a linear knot, and its much easier than a
Blood Knot.

What do others think...is this a good leader-tippet or tippet-tippet
knot? I wonder if its even worth doing two or more passes through
rather than the one.

--riverman

Here is a knot for consideration and testing. I never committed the
time to learn to efficiently tie blood knots, but many years ago
started tying a clinch to clinch knot for my tippet connections. The
result is a knot that looks very similar to a blood knot. I can do
this knot very quickly while on stream. Back when I first started
fooling around with this knot, I performed a very simple test comparing
this knot to a true blood knot.

I took two equal lengths of the same X tippet. Two ends were tied
together using a blood knot, the other two ends were tied together
using two clinch knots. I then used two screwdriver handles to stretch
test the leader material/knots. It seemed that the two different knots
broke in alternating order. My conclusion, not overly scientific, was
that the two knots were similar in strength. I've been using nothing
but the clinch to clinch knot ever since.

Give this knot a try, and if anyone does test it against a true blood
knot, please post your results.

Jeff

wrote:

Here is a knot for consideration and testing. I never committed the
time to learn to efficiently tie blood knots, but many years ago
started tying a clinch to clinch knot for my tippet connections.

That's a terrible knot. Did you learn it from Wayno? :-)

It may test strong when freshly tied, but it will soon weaken because of
the tight 180-degree bend around the clinch-knot loops.

Learn the Surgeon's Knot, dude. It's easy.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

"rw" wrote in message
m...
wrote:

Here is a knot for consideration and testing. I never committed the
time to learn to efficiently tie blood knots, but many years ago
started tying a clinch to clinch knot for my tippet connections.

That's a terrible knot. Did you learn it from Wayno? :-)

It may test strong when freshly tied, but it will soon weaken because of
the tight 180-degree bend around the clinch-knot loops.

Learn the Surgeon's Knot, dude. It's easy.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

Use it consistently for nymphing (the doubled cinch). Have tested it over
time versus the surgeon's knot variations and it holds up. I also use
Flouro for nymphing which may have an impact. One thing about this doubled
cinch is you have to seat it well, especially when using fluoro, it can slip
if not tied tight. I also do a horrible thing, bite the tags vs cut them,
again to prevent slippage.

Mike

briansfly wrote:
rw wrote:

briansfly wrote:


I just did a very non technical test on that knot. I tied it leaving
me with a loop 15 lb. test mono. I stuck a screw drive handle in each
end of the loop and pulled. It snapped at the knot every time. I did
the same test with a 5 turn blood knot. It also snapped at the knot,
but with a significantly higher tension needed. I realize this is
about as basic of a test as you can get, but the difference was
enough, that I could easily feel it.


An easy way to get an objective comparison between knots is to tie both
knots in one strand of tippet and pull to failure. That's what I did to
compare this knot with a double Surgeon's. The Surgeon's won. (One trial.)

Yup, i've done that too. All I had at my desk was 15 to 40 lb Trilene
Big Game mono(I use this to make my striper leaders). I figured tying it
in a loop would be a lot easier way to break it.

Back to Myron's question about multiple passes on the Zeppelin knot. I
tried it. The knot is very hard to seat properly, and it becomes bulky.
It did seem to have a higher break strength.

brians

Hmm, which is stronger; a surgeon's or a blood knot? I think factors
other than breaking strength play a role, because if the blood knot is
stronger, then the only reason to use a surgeon's because its easier to
tie. And if the surgeon's is stronger, then the only reason to use a
blood knot is to have a straight connection. If this Zeppelin thing is
weaker than both, but not significantly so, then it might be a good
compromise for, say, small spooky trout where you want a nice straight
leader, and maximum breaking strength is not necessary, but you don't
want to bother tying a blood knot.

I'll try some tests myself to see how it feels. Did you guys find it
significantly weaker? I once thought about using a 'double grapevine'
(also called a 'fisherman's knot') for tippet-tippet, but was astounded
to discover that it had almost no resilience at all! Try it
http://www.aqvi55.dsl.pipex.com/knot.../fisherman.htm

--riverman

riverman wrote:

Hmm, which is stronger; a surgeon's or a blood knot? I think factors
other than breaking strength play a role, because if the blood knot is
stronger, then the only reason to use a surgeon's because its easier to
tie.

A well-tied Surgeon's is close to 100%. That's tough to beat.

And if the surgeon's is stronger, then the only reason to use a
blood knot is to have a straight connection.

A well-tied Surgeon's makes an excellent straight connection. I didn't
used to think so before I really learned how to tie it. Are you sure
you're tying it correctly?

If this Zeppelin thing is
weaker than both, but not significantly so, then it might be a good
compromise for, say, small spooky trout where you want a nice straight
leader, and maximum breaking strength is not necessary, but you don't
want to bother tying a blood knot.

I think it's significantly weaker. Very significantly. Of course, that
opinion is based on one trial. :-)

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

On Thu, 03 Aug 2006 21:26:12 -0600, rw
wrote:

well-tied Surgeon's makes an excellent straight connection. I didn't
used to think so before I really learned how to tie it. Are you sure
you're tying it correctly?


I started using a triple Surgeons this year... so far it appears to be
a bit stronger than the standard double surgeons.The trick is to pull
both tag ends through the loop together at the same time, at least
twice I don't have the where with all to tye a blood knot tippet to
leader connection. I mean in the wind, at dusk...just too much
trouble.
I have buddies who swear by the BN. They carry the little tool and
spend huge amounts of prime time tying tippets on...
Harry
troutflies com