Tuna salad anyone? Death of a Tuna and Deathof a Whale

"Rodney Long" wrote in message ...
pearl wrote:


The FACTS are on our side.

Total bull S. that I snipped,

Predictable ad hominem, and totally false. The BS is all yours.

Chimpanzees, hunt, kill, and eat meat, in the wild ? Just how do they
explain that ? Why would Chimps do that ? they have no religion to tell
them to. They also kill each other "deliberately" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"Studies of frugivorous communities elsewhere suggest that dietary
divergence is highest when preferred food (succulent fruit) is scarce,
and that niche separation is clear only at such times (Gautier-Hion &
Gautier 1979: Terborgh 1983). " Foraging profiles of sympatric
lowland gorillas and chimpanzees in the Lopé Reserve, Gabon,
p.179, Philosophical Transactions: Biological Sciences vol 334,
159-295, No. 1270.

'According to Tuttle, the first substantive information on chimp diets
was provided by Nissen in 1931 (p.75). In 1930 Nissen spent 75
days of a 3-month period tracking and observing chimps. He made
direct unquantified observations and examined fecal deposits and
leftovers at feeding sites. He also found "no evidence that they ate
honey, eggs or animal prey" - this observation may have been too
limited due to seasonal variations in the chimp diet.

In Reynolds and Reynolds (1965), Tuttle says that a 300 hour
study of Budongo Forest chimps over an 8-month period revealed
"no evidence for avian eggs, termites or vertebrates", although
they thought that insects formed 1% of their diet (p.81).

In another study of Budongo Forest chimps from 1966 to 1967,
Sugiyama did not observe "meat-eating or deliberate captures
of arthropods", although he reported that "the chimpanzees
did ingest small insects that infested figs" (p.82).

Tuttle says that later observations at Budongo by Suzuki revealed
meat eating. Where the earlier observations wrong, or incomplete,
or maybe an accurate reflection of their diet at the time? Did the
chimps change their diet later? We do not know. Chimps sometimes
change their diets on a monthly basis. A study of chimps at the
Kabogo Point region from 1961 to 1962 by Azuma and Toyoshima,
revealed that they witnessed "only one instance of chimpanzees
ingesting animal food, vis. termites or beetles from rotten wood."
(p.87).

From 1963 to 1964, similar observations were found in Kasakati
Basin by a Kyoto University team, and when Izawa and Itani
published in 1966 they reported "no chimpanzees eating insects,
vertebrates, avian eggs, soil or tree leaves and found no trace in
the 14 stools that they inspected " (p.86). In contrast Kawabe and
Suzuki found the Kasakati chimps hunting in the same year (p.88),
although only 14 of 174 fecal samples contained traces of insects
and other animal foods. So perhaps these differing observations
are due to seasonal variation, or even local differences (cultural
variation) in feeding preferences - Tuttle does not reveal which.
Maybe some of the chimps groups are 'vegetarian', while others
are not. But see the Kortlandt observations below before believing
that all chimps are meat-eaters.

Far less is known about bonobo feeding habits than about the
common chimpanzee. Like chimps, the bonobo is also known
to eat insects and carrion, although unlike chimps it has not been
observed to hunt. Kano and Mulavwa provided the most detailed
account of the feeding behaviour of Wamba bonobos based on
a 4-month study. Tuttle reports that their diet was 80% fruit pulp,
15% fibrous foods and 5% seeds, and that "Animal foods
constituted a minute part of their fare" (p.95).

The best evidence, if there is any, of a "vegetarian" ape is the
gorilla. As with the other apes, there is great variation in what
gorillas eat based on their locality, and season. A 15-month
study of gorillas at Campo by Calvert, is reported by Tuttle
(p.100), in which he says that out of 280 stools, 1 example of
stomach contents and 1400 feeding sites, plus direct
observations, there was "no evidence" that "Campo gorillas
ingested animal matter." Similarly, Casimir and Butenandt
followed a group about 20 gorillas at Kahuzi during 15 months
in 1971 to 1972 (Tuttle, ibid., p.102). They collected 43 fecal
samples at fairly regular intervals but none "contained remains
of vertebrates or invertebrates". In addition, the gorillas did
not disturb active birds and honeybee nests that were clearly
visible near their own nests. Nor did they unearth bee nests.
Goodall also noted that Kahuzi gorillas ignored eggs and
fledglings and did not invade bees nests (Tuttle, ibid., p.105),
and that none of the many fecal samples he found contained
animal remnants. Tuttle also reports that the "most detailed"
study of 10 groups of Zairean Virunga mountain gorillas by
Schaller in 13 months from 1956 to 1960, including fecal
samples and 466 direct hours of observation, found "no
evidence that they raided apian nests, which were common
at Kabara, ingested animal foods, or drank water." (p.107)
In 1959, a 64-day study by Kawai and Mizuhara of gorillas
at Mts. Muhavura and Gahinga also found "no evidence for
animal foods in the gorillas' fare." (p.108)

The story for gorillas is by no means a clear one, as findings
seem to vary from one study to another. You can pick them
to suit your agenda. For example, Adriaan Kortlandt says in
'Food Acquisition And Processing In Primates', page 133-135,
that "Gorillas have never been observed to eat honey, eggs,
insects or meat, not even when they were sitting or nesting
almost on top of honeycomb or a bird's nest, except for
one single case of honey-eating reported by Sabater-Pi (1960)"
He adds however, that Fossey (1974) reports that slugs, larvae
and worms were found to constitute 1% of the food item
observations recorded. Kortlandt adds that "No animal remains
have been found in gorilla dung, except for one case presumably
indicating cannibalism (Fossey, 1981)."

Kortlandt states that predation by chimpanzees on vertebrates is
undoubtedly a rather rare phenomenon among rainforest-dwelling
populations of chimpanzees. Kortlandt lists the reasons given below
in his evidence.

# the absence (or virtual absence) of animal matter in the digestive
systems of hundreds of hunted, dissected or otherwise investigated
cases
# the rarity of parasites indicating carnivorous habits
# rarity of pertinent field observations
# the responses when he placed live as well as dead potential prey
animals along the chimpanzee paths at Beni (in the poorer environments
of the savanna landscape however, predation on vertebrates appears to
be much more common)

Kortlandt concludes this section on primate diets by saying that
the wealth of flora and insect fauna in the rain-forest provides
both chimpanzees and orang-utans with a dietary spectrum that seems
wide enough to meet their nutritional requirements, without hunting
and killing of vertebrates being necessary. It is in the poorer
nutritional environments, where plant sources may be scarce or of
low quality where carnivorous behaviour arises. Even then he says
that the meat obtained are minimal and perhaps insufficient to meet
basic needs. Finally he adds "The same conclusion applies, of course,
to hominids . . . it is strange that most palaeoanthropologists have
never been willing to accept the elementary facts on this matter that
have emerged from both nutritional science and primate research."
...'
http://venus.nildram.co.uk/veganmc/polemics.htm

pearl wrote:


Predictable ad hominem, and totally false. The BS is all yours.

Chimpanzees, hunt, kill, and eat meat, in the wild ? Just how do they
explain that ? Why would Chimps do that ? they have no religion to tell
them to. They also kill each other "deliberately" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"Studies of frugivorous communities elsewhere suggest that dietary
divergence is highest when preferred food (succulent fruit) is scarce,
and that niche separation is clear only at such times (Gautier-Hion &
Gautier 1979: Terborgh 1983). " Foraging profiles of sympatric
lowland gorillas and chimpanzees in the Lopé Reserve, Gabon,
p.179, Philosophical Transactions: Biological Sciences vol 334,
159-295, No. 1270.

'According to Tuttle, the first substantive information on chimp diets
was provided by Nissen in 1931 (p.75). In 1930 Nissen spent 75
days of a 3-month period tracking and observing chimps. He made
direct unquantified observations and examined fecal deposits and
leftovers at feeding sites. He also found "no evidence that they ate
honey, eggs or animal prey" - this observation may have been too
limited due to seasonal variations in the chimp diet.


All this changed with Jane Goodal, who now has many documented, on
"film" cases where chimps kill and eat meat, it took years before the
chimps allowed her close enough to see this happen.

This SHOT DOWN ALL OTHER "THEORIES" BEFORE HER. Blowing out all of the
earlier theories. She had the "real" facts, and had them on film, from
the hunting, to the eating of meat. She even recorded at least one case
of cannibalisms . Why don't you check that out, I've even seen the
videos of it. Everyone was surprised by these facts.


--
Rodney Long,
Inventor of the Mojo SpecTastic "WIGGLE" rig, SpecTastic Thread,
Boomerang Fishing Pro. ,Stand Out Hooks ,Stand Out Lures,
Mojo's Rock Hopper & Rig Saver weights, and the EZKnot
http://www.ezknot.com

"Rodney Long" wrote in message ...
pearl wrote:


Predictable ad hominem, and totally false. The BS is all yours.

Chimpanzees, hunt, kill, and eat meat, in the wild ? Just how do they
explain that ? Why would Chimps do that ? they have no religion to tell
them to. They also kill each other "deliberately" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"Studies of frugivorous communities elsewhere suggest that dietary
divergence is highest when preferred food (succulent fruit) is scarce,
and that niche separation is clear only at such times (Gautier-Hion &
Gautier 1979: Terborgh 1983). " Foraging profiles of sympatric
lowland gorillas and chimpanzees in the Lopé Reserve, Gabon,
p.179, Philosophical Transactions: Biological Sciences vol 334,
159-295, No. 1270.

'According to Tuttle, the first substantive information on chimp diets
was provided by Nissen in 1931 (p.75). In 1930 Nissen spent 75
days of a 3-month period tracking and observing chimps. He made
direct unquantified observations and examined fecal deposits and
leftovers at feeding sites. He also found "no evidence that they ate
honey, eggs or animal prey" - this observation may have been too
limited due to seasonal variations in the chimp diet.

All this changed with Jane Goodal, who now has many documented, on
"film" cases where chimps kill and eat meat, it took years before the
chimps allowed her close enough to see this happen.

This SHOT DOWN ALL OTHER "THEORIES" BEFORE HER. Blowing out all of the
earlier theories. She had the "real" facts, and had them on film, from
the hunting, to the eating of meat. She even recorded at least one case
of cannibalisms . Why don't you check that out, I've even seen the
videos of it. Everyone was surprised by these facts.

Gombe National Park is a limited area, and competition is high.

'..The park is made up of narrow mountain strip of land about
16 kilometers long and 5 kilometers wide on the shore of Lake
Tanganyika. From the lake shore steep slopes rises up to form the
Rift Valley's escapement, which is covered by the dense forest.
...
The dominating vegetation in this park include the open
deciduous woodland on the upper slopes, gallery forests on
the valleys and lower slopes. This type of vegetation is unique in
Tanzania and has been supporting a large number of Chimpanzee,
Baboons, and a large number of bird species. Other species seen
here are colobus, blue and red tail monkeys.
....'
http://www.utalii.com/gombe%20national%20park.htm

pearl wrote:

This SHOT DOWN ALL OTHER "THEORIES" BEFORE HER. Blowing out all of the
earlier theories. She had the "real" facts, and had them on film, from
the hunting, to the eating of meat. She even recorded at least one case
of cannibalisms . Why don't you check that out, I've even seen the
videos of it. Everyone was surprised by these facts.

Gombe National Park is a limited area, and competition is high.

'..The park is made up of narrow mountain strip of land about
16 kilometers long and 5 kilometers wide on the shore of Lake
Tanganyika. From the lake shore steep slopes rises up to form the
Rift Valley's escapement, which is covered by the dense forest.
..
The dominating vegetation in this park include the open
deciduous woodland on the upper slopes, gallery forests on
the valleys and lower slopes. This type of vegetation is unique in
Tanzania and has been supporting a large number of Chimpanzee,
Baboons, and a large number of bird species. Other species seen
here are colobus, blue and red tail monkeys.

I was not going to even mention Baboons, meat eating is an accepted
practice for them.


--
Rodney Long,
Inventor of the Mojo SpecTastic "WIGGLE" rig, SpecTastic Thread,
Boomerang Fishing Pro. ,Stand Out Hooks ,Stand Out Lures,
Mojo's Rock Hopper & Rig Saver weights, and the EZKnot
http://www.ezknot.com

"Rodney Long" wrote in message ...
pearl wrote:

This SHOT DOWN ALL OTHER "THEORIES" BEFORE HER. Blowing out all of the
earlier theories. She had the "real" facts, and had them on film, from
the hunting, to the eating of meat. She even recorded at least one case
of cannibalisms . Why don't you check that out, I've even seen the
videos of it. Everyone was surprised by these facts.

Gombe National Park is a limited area, and competition is high.

'..The park is made up of narrow mountain strip of land about
16 kilometers long and 5 kilometers wide on the shore of Lake
Tanganyika. From the lake shore steep slopes rises up to form the
Rift Valley's escapement, which is covered by the dense forest.
..
The dominating vegetation in this park include the open
deciduous woodland on the upper slopes, gallery forests on
the valleys and lower slopes. This type of vegetation is unique in
Tanzania and has been supporting a large number of Chimpanzee,
Baboons, and a large number of bird species. Other species seen
here are colobus, blue and red tail monkeys.

I was not going to even mention Baboons, meat eating is an accepted
practice for them.

Their habitat has been described as flat, semi-arid savannah with
occasional trees or woodland, with highly seasonal rainfall. Not
a place where succulent fruits could be expected to be abundant.
So, yet, ..
"their diet emphasizes roots, tubers, grass seeds and fruits."
http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~bramblet/ant301/eight.html

As you mention baboons....

'No Time for Bullies: Baboons Retool Their Culture
By NATALIE ANGIER
Published: April 13, 2004

Sometimes it takes the great Dustbuster of fate to clear the room of
bullies and bad habits. Freak cyclones helped destroy Kublai Khan's
brutal Mongolian empire, for example, while the Black Death of the
14th century capsized the medieval theocracy and gave the Renaissance
a chance to shine.

Among a troop of savanna baboons in Kenya, a terrible outbreak of
tuberculosis 20 years ago selectively killed off the biggest, nastiest and
most despotic males, setting the stage for a social and behavioral
transformation unlike any seen in this notoriously truculent primate.

In a study appearing today in the journal PloS Biology (online at
www.plosbiology.org), researchers describe the drastic temperamental and
tonal shift that occurred in a troop of 62 baboons when its most belligerent
members vanished from the scene. The victims were all dominant adult males
that had been strong and snarly enough to fight with a neighboring baboon
troop over the spoils at a tourist lodge garbage dump, and were exposed
there to meat tainted with bovine tuberculosis, which soon killed them. Left
behind in the troop, designated the Forest Troop, were the 50 percent of
males that had been too subordinate to try dump brawling, as well as all the
females and their young. With that change in demographics came a cultural
swing toward pacifism, a relaxing of the usually parlous baboon hierarchy,
and a willingness to use affection and mutual grooming rather than threats,
swipes and bites to foster a patriotic spirit.

Remarkably, the Forest Troop has maintained its genial style over two
decades, even though the male survivors of the epidemic have since died
or disappeared and been replaced by males from the outside. (As is the
case for most primates, baboon females spend their lives in their natal home,
while the males leave at puberty to seek their fortunes elsewhere.) The
persistence of communal comity suggests that the resident baboons must
somehow be instructing the immigrants in the unusual customs of the tribe.

"We don't yet understand the mechanism of transmittal," said Dr. Robert M.
Sapolsky, a professor of biology and neurology at Stanford, "but the jerky
new guys are obviously learning, `We don't do things like that around here.'"
Dr. Sapolsky wrote the report with his colleague and wife, Dr. Lisa J. Share.

Dr. Sapolsky, who is renowned for his study of the physiology of stress,
said that the Forest Troop baboons probably felt as good as they acted.
Hormone samples from the monkeys showed far less evidence of stress in
even the lowest-ranking individuals, when contrasted with baboons living
in more rancorous societies.

The researchers were able to compare the behavior and physiology of the
contemporary Forest Troop primates to two control groups: a similar-size
baboon congregation living nearby, called the Talek Troop, and the Forest
Troop itself from 1979 through 1982, the era that might be called Before
Alpha Die-off, or B.A.D.

"It's a really fine, thorough piece of work, with the sort of methodology
and lucky data sets that you can only get from doing long-term field
research," said Dr. Duane Quiatt, a primatologist at the University of
Colorado at Denver and a co-author with Vernon Reynolds of the 1993
book "Primate Behaviour: Information, Social Knowledge and the Evolution
of Culture."

The new work vividly demonstrates that, Putumayo records notwithstanding,
humans hold no patent on multiculturalism. As a growing body of research
indicates, many social animals learn from one another and cultivate regional
variants in skills, conventions and fashions. Some chimpanzees crack open
their nuts with a stone hammer on a stone anvil; others prefer wood hammers
on wood anvils. The chimpanzees of the Tai forest rain-dance; those of the
Gombe tickle themselves. Dr. Jane Goodall reported a fad in one chimpanzee
group: a young female started wiggling her hands, and before long, every
teen chimp was doing likewise.

(Page 2 of 2)

But in the baboon study, the culture being conveyed is less a specific
behavior or skill than a global code of conduct. "You can more accurately
describe it as the social ethos of group," said Dr. Andrew Whiten, a
professor of evolutionary and developmental psychology at the University
of St. Andrews in Scotland who has studied chimpanzee culture. "It's an
attitude that's being transmitted."

The report also offers real-world proof of a principle first demonstrated in
captive populations of monkeys: that with the right upbringing, diplomacy is
infectious. Dr. Frans B. M. de Waal, the director of the Living Links Center
at the Yerkes National Primate Research Center of Emory University in
Atlanta, has shown that if the normally pugilistic rhesus monkeys are reared
with the more conciliatory stumptailed monkeys, the rhesus monkeys learn
the value of tolerance, peacemaking and mutual hip-hugging.

Dr. de Waal, who wrote an essay to accompany the new baboon study,
said in a telephone interview, "The good news for humans is that it looks
like peaceful conditions, once established, can be maintained," he said.

"And if baboons can do it," he said, "why not us? The bad news is that you
might have to first knock out all the most aggressive males to get there."

Jerkiness or worse certainly seems to be a job description for ordinary male
baboons. The average young male, after wheedling his way into a new troop
at around age 7, spends his prime years seeking to fang his way up the
hierarchy; and once he's gained some status, he devotes many a leisure hour
to whimsical displays of power at scant personal cost. He harasses and
attacks females, which weigh half his hundred pounds and lack his
thumb-thick canines, or he terrorizes the low-ranking males he knows cannot
retaliate.

Dr. Barbara Smuts, a primatologist at the University of Michigan who wrote
the 1985 book "Sex and Friendship in Baboons," said that the females in the
troop she studied received a serious bite from a male annually, maybe losing
a strip of flesh or part of an ear in the process. As they age and lose
their strength, however, males may calm down and adopt a new approach to
group living, affiliating with females so devotedly that they keep their
reproductive opportunities going even as their ranking in the male hierarchy
plunges.

For their part, female baboons, which live up to 25 years - compared with
the male's 18 - inherit their rank in the gynocracy from their mothers and
so spend less time fighting for dominance. They do, however, readily battle
females from outside the fold, for they, not the males, are the keepers of
turf and dynasty.

The new-fashioned Forest Troop is no United Nations, or even the average
frat house. Its citizens remain highly aggressive and argumentative, and the
males still obsess over hierarchy. "We're talking about baboons here," said
Dr. Sapolsky.

What most distinguishes this congregation from others is that the males
resist taking out their bad moods on females and underlings. When a
dominant male wants to pick a fight, he finds someone his own size and
rank. As a result, a greater percentage of male-male conflicts in the Forest
Troop occur between closely ranked individuals than is seen in the control
populations, where the bullies seek easier pickings. Moreover, Forest Troop
males of all ranks spend more time grooming and being groomed, and just
generally huddling close to troop mates, than do their counterpart males in
the study.

Interestingly, the male faces in the Forest Troop may have changed over
time, but the relative numbers have not. Ever since the tuberculosis
epidemic killed half the adult males, the ratio has remained skewed, with
twice as many females as males. Yet the researchers have demonstrated
that the troop's sexual complexion alone cannot explain its character.
Examining other troops with a similar preponderance of females, the
Stanford scientists saw no evidence of the Forest Troop's relative amity.

Dr. Sapolsky has no idea how long the good times will last. "I confess I'm
rooting for the troop to stay like this forever, but I worry about how
vulnerable they may be," he said. "All it would take is two or three jerky
adolescent males entering at the same time to tilt the balance and destroy
the culture."

http://tinyurl.com/3hn4m

From: "pearl"

snip

Total bullsh!t. Denying the fact that hominids are omnivorous.

It was the extraction of bone marrow that helped early hominids evolve.

I don't care if anyone is vegetarian or vegan. It do care when extremists want everyone to
follow their POV. This is the same as religious extremism.

--
Dave
http://www.claymania.com/removal-trojan-adware.html
http://www.ik-cs.com/got-a-virus.htm

"David H. Lipman" wrote in message news:T096h.4761$5P2.4751@trnddc02...
From: "pearl"

snip

Total bullsh!t. Denying the fact that hominids are omnivorous.

No. Demonstrating beyond any reasonable doubt, that humans
are not naturally carnivorous omnivores, omnivorous as you are.

It was the extraction of bone marrow that helped early hominids evolve.

Going by that 'logic', carnivores should be way smarter than us.

You are wrong. I suggest you try to get over it pretty smartish.

I don't care if anyone is vegetarian or vegan. It do care when extremists want everyone to
follow their POV. This is the same as religious extremism.

You are in denial. That is the hallmark indication of addiction. !

--
Dave
http://www.claymania.com/removal-trojan-adware.html
http://www.ik-cs.com/got-a-virus.htm

David H. Lipman wrote:
From: "pearl"

snip

Total bullsh!t. Denying the fact that hominids are omnivorous.

It was the extraction of bone marrow that helped early hominids evolve.

I don't care if anyone is vegetarian or vegan. It do care when
extremists want everyone to
follow their POV. This is the same as religious extremism.



You can't reason with a vegetarian, they have lost the protein in their
diet, that allows their brains to function properly.
Prime example, they complain about people killing animals, yet they can
no longer, see animals killing animals, animals even torturing other
animals, just watch a house cat play with a mouse, or killer whales
tossing "injured" baby seals in the air for hours, before finally eating
them. Animals kill more animals, than humans do. It's the way nature
works, and we humans are part of nature.

I hunt, and I fish, I can't stand to see a creature suffer needlessly, I
dispatch them as quickly as possible. That deer I kill, I saved another
2 deer from starving to death, slowly, during the winter, we must control
their numbers, or starvation , and disease will make them suffer
horribly. There is documented evidence of this, when Pennsylvania
banned deer hunting for ten years, they lost tens of thousands of deer
to starvation and disease each year, tell me these deer did not suffer,
needlessly !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Your vegetarians can not see these facts any longer, they loose that
part or reasoning in their brains,, nothing we meat eaters can do to
change their thinking, until they have a couple of hamburgers. They
suffer from a chemical imbalance of the brain, and you can't fix it with
the antidepressants most of them take. It takes Meat, to solve that
problem. How do I know that,, well my daughter went though that phase a
few years back, she decided to stop eating meat, within 6 months she was
condemning me for eating meat, and hunting, and fishing. One day my wife
started slipping a bit of bacon fat into her veggies, a week later, she
started finely grinding a little meat into them, in a month she was
normal again, and started hunting, and fishing again, and eating meat
daily. She now is a normal wife, and mother, with her own son, and feeds
him meat. There is hope for these veg'es, They can be turned back to
the force, from the dark side, all someone has to do is slip a little
hidden meat into their diet, then those neurons that have not been fed,
start working again, next thing you know, they will be out with a
shotgun, duck hunting :-)


--
Rodney Long,
Inventor of the Mojo SpecTastic "WIGGLE" rig, SpecTastic Thread,
Boomerang Fishing Pro. ,Stand Out Hooks ,Stand Out Lures,
Mojo's Rock Hopper & Rig Saver weights, and the EZKnot
http://www.ezknot.com