Putting the X back in Xmas

"riverman" wrote in message ...

wrote in message
oups.com...
Not that I'm for offending people, but I think it is ironic that you
can't give Jesus for Chrstmas:

http://www.richmondtimesdispatch.com...!news!vaapwire

..... that creaking sound you hear, is western civilazation
toppling.... as it bends over backwards...

PS, I see the point, but the irony is palpable..


What the Marines do with Toys for Tots is nondenominational. The Religious
Right implying that its foul play to not accept talking Jesus toys is like
the Romans claiming it was foul play for the Trojans to refuse the horse.

Romans? Paris and Helen of Sparta would be very upset to be indentified to
the bask water rustis village (as it was during the Trojan War)...



And for anyone else to claim its foul play is just religious hypocricy.

Christ's association with Christmas is historically a very recent event;
only since the 10th or 11th century. Consumerist Santa is considerably
more relevant today, and historically, midwinter festivals such as Yule,
Saturnalia or Yalda, predate Christ by millenia. The evidence doesn't even
support that Christ was born in December.


And not even until the late 19th century in civilized regions, such as,
Scotland, but that's beside the point... in the US, Christmas has always,
until recently, been identified with only one thing, the Christ story.

Skwala wrote:
"riverman" wrote in message ...

wrote in message
oups.com...
Not that I'm for offending people, but I think it is ironic that you
can't give Jesus for Chrstmas:

http://www.richmondtimesdispatch.com...!news!vaapwire

..... that creaking sound you hear, is western civilazation
toppling.... as it bends over backwards...

PS, I see the point, but the irony is palpable..


What the Marines do with Toys for Tots is nondenominational. The Religious
Right implying that its foul play to not accept talking Jesus toys is like
the Romans claiming it was foul play for the Trojans to refuse the horse.

Romans? Paris and Helen of Sparta would be very upset to be indentified to
the bask water rustis village (as it was during the Trojan War)...



And for anyone else to claim its foul play is just religious hypocricy.

Christ's association with Christmas is historically a very recent event;
only since the 10th or 11th century. Consumerist Santa is considerably
more relevant today, and historically, midwinter festivals such as Yule,
Saturnalia or Yalda, predate Christ by millenia. The evidence doesn't even
support that Christ was born in December.


And not even until the late 19th century in civilized regions, such as,
Scotland, but that's beside the point... in the US, Christmas has always,
until recently, been identified with only one thing, the Christ story.


Interesting. The midwinter festival has a 4000+ year old history in the
rest of the world, diverse roots, multiple religious origins and many
different traditions. Identifying it as a Christian religion was even
outlawed for a brief time in a Christian country, yet the US insists
that its own cultural identification of the Christmas story is the
right one, while the associations the rest of the world has with this
worldwide event, which they originated, are 'beside the point'.

Never mind that the only christmas icon that is truly american is
Santa's Coca-cola Red outfit, and that every other aspect of the
celebration originates in the rest of the world and has been
*******ized. St. Nicholas (with his GREEN suit) is from Turkey, the
christmas tree is from scandanavia (as is the name; 'Kris Kringle') or
Germany (as is "Santa Claus") or Egypt, most of the food we associate
with the christmas feast originates from Germany, Bavaria and central
Europe, the blazing fireplace (Yule festival: Norway) with stockings
hanging for gifts (northern Europe), Santa's sleigh with reindeer
(Finland), the three wise men (Maji: Jordan and Iraq) the manger
(eastern europe), the nativity scene (completely ficticious imagery
from superimposing names from Palestine upon a Northern European
landscape), Baby Jesus (Israel), the birth of baby Jesus in december
(concocted by the Romans), and timing of the holiday in late december
(multiple origins), the birth and resurrection (egypt), hanging
mistletoe (Norse or celtic), hanging lights (Scandanavia or Europe) and
giving gifts (Turkey). But we take the imagery, change it to suit our
own cultural taste, dose it with heavy commercialism, then declare
private ownership of the whole thing. The entire Jesus Christmas story
as celebrated and told in the US today is a concoction of events; most
ficticious, many policitally or commercially motivated, all
ethnocentric.

--riverman

"riverman" wrote in message
ups.com...

...The midwinter festival has a 4000+ year old history in the
rest of the world, diverse roots, multiple religious origins and many
different traditions. Identifying it as a Christian religion was even
outlawed for a brief time in a Christian country, yet the US insists
that its own cultural identification of the Christmas story is the
right one, while the associations the rest of the world has with this
worldwide event, which they originated, are 'beside the point'....

Can't argue with the exposition of Christmas as celebrated here being a
multicultural stew, but I'm curious about this notion of American insistence
on its own correct version. To be sure, there will always be short-sighted
and dim-witted cultural chauvinists who believe their way is the only way,
but I don't recall seeing much evidence of a widespread belief among
Americans that our own Christmas traditions are any more right than anyone
else's. Quite the contrary, we are all taught as children that various bits
of our way of celebrating Christmas come from other places. Beyond that,
there doesn't seem to be much indication that people here think about
comparative Christmases at all.

Indifference is not the same thing as chauvinism.

Wolfgang

On Wed, 15 Nov 2006 07:45:50 -0800, "Skwala"
wrote:


And not even until the late 19th century in civilized regions, such as,
Scotland, but that's beside the point... in the US, Christmas has always,
until recently, been identified with only one thing, the Christ story.

I didn't know that the American Indians celebrated it before being
conquered by the Europeans. Wonder how they found out about the right
time and the star and shepherds and all that.
--

r.bc: vixen
Speaker to squirrels, willow watcher, etc..
Often taunted by trout. Almost entirely harmless. Really.

http://www.visi.com/~cyli

"Cyli" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 15 Nov 2006 07:45:50 -0800, "Skwala"
wrote:


And not even until the late 19th century in civilized regions, such as,
Scotland, but that's beside the point... in the US, Christmas has always,
until recently, been identified with only one thing, the Christ story.

I didn't know that the American Indians celebrated it before being
conquered by the Europeans. Wonder how they found out about the right
time and the star and shepherds and all that.

The Mormons told them.

--riverman

"riverman" wrote ...

The Mormons told them.

--riverman

Splork

Dan

"Cyli" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 15 Nov 2006 07:45:50 -0800, "Skwala"
wrote:


And not even until the late 19th century in civilized regions, such as,
Scotland, but that's beside the point... in the US, Christmas has always,
until recently, been identified with only one thing, the Christ story.

I didn't know that the American Indians celebrated it before being
conquered by the Europeans. Wonder how they found out about the right
time and the star and shepherds and all that.
--

r.bc: vixen
Speaker to squirrels, willow watcher, etc..
Often taunted by trout. Almost entirely harmless. Really.

http://www.visi.com/~cyli

Cyli,

I didn't know that the natives called this land the "US" before being
conquered by Euro's either...

I did choose the moniker "US" to indicate the present political system, not
the pre-Columbian one...

Skwala

Semantics... words mean something.... just different something's, for
different people...