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#1
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An open letter to the current participants in the interminable uproar
on ROFF: This is getting nuts. Someone GROW UP for gods sake. There's an easy opportunity to win this unwinnable war. Who will be the first to see it? I spent a few hours last night reading through the origins of the recent food-fight here, and getting a sense of the bigger picture. Its not worth going into too many details without starting a hopeless Israeli-Arab "He started it" endless debate, but I think I can safely say that this entire thing HAS started, has evolved, and now has wings of its own, and is pretty much decimating the environment here. There are far too many things out of whack from this for a simple unraveling of facts to solve, but there is a pretty clear trend of events that is important. Back in the 'Catch and Release' thread, shortly after several folks on ROFF (Ken included) gave Mike good wishes for his schoolboy elatedness at his new love affair, Mike posted some very distasteful and (to us Ummericans, anyway) politically incorrect and emotionally- charged opinions about gays. Ken, true to form and true to his morals, came out clearly against it, and in the bumbling spar-and-parry that ensued, both sides dug in deeper until pretty much open warfare was declared, but in a pseudo-detente. After that, several periods of relative calm ensued, but on several occasions, Mike or Ken baited the other, either deliberately or in self-depreciating jest, which almost invariably caused the catfight warfare to pick up where it left off. Until we get to now, where it is gloves-off, no holds barred, monothematic, and far too many offenses on all sides and far too many toes stepped on for anyone to claim that they still have clean hands. Its a barroom brawl, the bar is getting all busted up. Who cares at this point how it started or what they are fighting about. The solution has got to come from someone taking the moral high ground, and walking away from it. Boom, just like that; drop it and don't take the bait any more. No one can say "well, ____ should do it because they are wrong." Everyone is wrong, because the wrongness of this whole mess is not about homophobia, or fighting unjust causes with just or unjust means; the wrongness of this whole mess is that the gang warfare here is ruining ROFF for many people; lurkers and old-timers. We will never resolve the former, we can only resolve the latter. So here's the chance for one of you to grab the golden ring, win the argument by winning the 'this whole thing has grown beyond stupid, and I'll be the first to recognize that we're engaging in repeating behaviors that keep producing the same outcome, and I'll step off this train first." So who's it going to be. There might not be another chance to 'win' this, because its gone well beyond being unwinnable. --riverman |
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riverman wrote:
....... No one can say "well, ____ should do it because they are wrong." Everyone is wrong, because the wrongness of this whole mess is not about homophobia, or fighting unjust causes with just or unjust means; the wrongness of this whole mess is that the gang warfare here is ruining ROFF for many people; lurkers and old-timers. We will never resolve the former, we can only resolve the latter. It must have occurred to you that for at least one of the protagonists, ruining roff might in fact *be* the objective. - JR |
#3
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On Apr 12, 9:24 am, JR wrote:
It must have occurred to you that for at least one of the protagonists, ruining roff might in fact *be* the objective. - JR How remarkably perceptive. Attrition invariably succeeds even when the opponent is aware of the strategy. MC |
#4
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![]() wrote in message oups.com... On Apr 12, 9:24 am, JR wrote: It must have occurred to you that for at least one of the protagonists, ruining roff might in fact *be* the objective. - JR How remarkably perceptive. Attrition invariably succeeds even when the opponent is aware of the strategy. MC And therein lies part of the problem. I started a simple thread (OT: Ethanol), and the honest responses were attacked by YOU. It seems that your intentions are to discourage anyone, new or old, from posting out of sheer frustration that they WILL have to wade through and sort out all the BULL**** from the real responses. It simply becomes not worth the effort to look for, or expect any kind of reasonable response once you get involved. Jeremy Moe |
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On Apr 12, 12:24 am, JR wrote:
riverman wrote: ....... No one can say "well, ____ should do it because they are wrong." Everyone is wrong, because the wrongness of this whole mess is not about homophobia, or fighting unjust causes with just or unjust means; the wrongness of this whole mess is that the gang warfare here is ruining ROFF for many people; lurkers and old-timers. We will never resolve the former, we can only resolve the latter. It must have occurred to you that for at least one of the protagonists, ruining roff might in fact *be* the objective. - JR Might? I thought that was his stated objective? We've seen worse, the little I see is so sad it's humorous. - Ken |
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On Apr 12, 9:02 am, "riverman" wrote:
So who's it going to be. There might not be another chance to 'win' this, because its gone well beyond being unwinnable. --riverman There never was anything to win, and there never will be.Except perhaps, as somebody else pointed out, possible friends, which is now extremely unlikely, as the present climate here makes that quite impossible. But there was always something to lose. I can understand and sympathise with your words here, I once thought in a similar fashion, but I have no intention of conceding anything whatsoever to people of such a nature. It may be only words to some, or cheap entertainment, and ignorable, it is not for me. As far as I am concerned those words were and are designed to do me harm. Several other contributors have made no bones about supporting such outrageous behaviour, and indeed attacking me as well. You may appeal to them if you wish, but it will probably be quite hopeless, as in order for such an appeal to have any effect those appealed too must have some sense of decency, and they have not. Might I also point out that I have nothing at all to lose. This group is less than worthless to me, and it is quite impossible for anybody on here to damage or insult me any further. The reverse is not the case. MC |
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#8
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On Apr 12, 10:37 am, Jan Mikkelsen wrote:
Hi Mike If this indeed is the case why do you keep hanging on here then? I hope that your presence here is indicating that you actually find ROFF useful to some extent? whatsoever to people of such a nature. It may be only words to some, or cheap entertainment, and ignorable, it is not for me. I appreciate your thoughts here. If everyone would live according to those words we would likely see less ignorants around here and one usenet in general for that matter. Seems as if many a newsgroup has been killed by people using this media as a way to engage in no-risk fights on words. I bet that they are the same wimpish people that never say the tinnies of 'ips' when they are in face-to-face situations. /Jan "One who would hate to see also ROFF die" No, I no longer find it useful, or even remotely enjoyable. Even when I posted fishing oriented material, it merely resulted in insults and slurs. I think it would be a good thing if it died, as that would take away the platform that some people are using to wilfully abuse others. They would not be allowed to post in other places, and that would effectively prevent many other people from being abused. There are plenty of very good angling sites on the net now, so it would be no great loss information-wise. Many people have already left, as they donīt wish to participate in a forum of this nature. Few will join, as a result of what they see happening here, and so the demise is accelerating all the time. The only reason I am hanging on here is to help accelerate that demise in any way I can. Just as there is nothing I can do about the abuse and insults, there is nothing they can do about my posting. People who donīt like it, only have one sensible option, apart from ignoring a lot of stuff, and that is to leave. The natural tendency of most people is to take the line of least resistance. Even those who have not engaged in any of this nonsense, and are basically indifferent to it, will eventually become so sick of it that they will simply leave. Having to wade through all this crap, or killfile most of the group, in the vague hope of finding something useful or pleasant, is not something most sensible people are prepared to do. The ability to insult and abuse people with impunity is a two edged sword. TL MC |
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#10
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On Apr 12, 2:18 pm, Scott Seidman wrote:
wrote in news:1176370200.579014.314410 @d57g2000hsg.googlegroups.com: The only reason I am hanging on here is to help accelerate that demise in any way I can. Mike, that would make you a creep. And a childish creep at that. -- Scott Reverse name to reply Indeed? That is a very interesting observation. What is your opinion on people who call others nazi homos, or a variety of other choice epithets? Nice guys? Pillars of society? Shining lights for youthful fly-anglers? Paragons of virtue? I have already been called a creep several times, it is boring. If you canīt think of something new to help with the circus then I rather fear your input is superfluous. MC |
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Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Rethinking Mike Connor... | [email protected] | Fly Fishing | 77 | April 12th, 2007 01:28 AM |