Question fly rod evolution

On Aug 15, 2:14 pm, Scott Seidman wrote:
mdk77 wrote in news:1187143425.516939.209290
@q4g2000prc.googlegroups.com:

Another newbie question. Did the graphite rods progress from IM6 to
IM7 to the super-high modulus rods that are high-end models today? In
other words, was there a time when IM6 was the best graphite
available?

Just curious.

To some extent, I like to think that recent "improvements" in graphite are
nothing more than a way for the industry to get you to buy something you
already own. Then I try the Winston Borons, and think those are a huge
improvement. Do I "need" it? That's another story.

--
Scott
Reverse name to reply

That is a very interesting and germane observation.Many anglers,
probably most, don´t "need" the gear they have, and virtually none of
them needs a new rod every year. Most especially so if they only do
one particular type of fishing.

Although it often upsets people to hear it, most would be perfectly
fine with "mid range" rods, or even cheaper Korean and Chinese rods,
( which are also mainly mid range), than paying top dollar for the top
rods. The reasons are also exactly the same as in the car analogy
which is often used. There is no point buying a Maserati or a
Lamborghini if you only drive a few miles to work in heavy traffic
every day, and are not even a very good driver, but people still do
it.

You will still get to work, and possibly more reliably and in a more
robust fashion, and of course a lot cheaper if you buy a Ford. escort
( or whatever the American or other equivalent may be).

For top performance, you are obliged to sacrifice other things, and
you may well not even be able to use that performance, so you
sacrifice the other things for no good reason, and end up worse off
than you were. An expensive rod might under certain circumstances,
catch you a couple of fish you might not otherwise have caught, but
ONLY if you can use it to its full potential. It might also cause you
to catch fewer fish because you can´t use it properly anyway. In
which case you would be much better served with a cheaper but more
robust and generally suitable rod.

The main ( sensible) reason for buying a new rod, if if you have
improved your casting to the extent that the rod you have no longer
allows you to extend your abilities ( assuming you desire to do so).

Much the same now applies to expensive and specialty lines. At one
time the standard advice was to "buy the best line you can afford",
but what is the best? The most expensive? At one time there was not
really much choice, and buying the most expensive one more less
ensured that you did indeed get the best available. That will not work
now. Also the standard advice to beginners is no linger quite so
easy. I tell my pupils to use a cheap line for the first season, when
they are learning,n and then to throw it away and buy a good one, once
they actually know what they want. The lines may not cast as well as
some more expensive models, although even most cheapies cast well
enough if cast properly, but they will likely be ruined in a first
season anyway, also from practising on grass, catching up in trees and
bushes, being stooden on, etc all things that beginners do a lot! Why
waste money on an expensive line for that? Long before you can use it
properly anyway?

--
Regards and tight lines!

Mike Connor

http://www.mike-connor.homepage.t-online.de/

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/Flycorner?hl=en

Mike wrote in news:1187184135.504014.121350
@r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.com:

Although it often upsets people to hear it, most would be perfectly
fine with "mid range" rods, or even cheaper Korean and Chinese rods,
( which are also mainly mid range), than paying top dollar for the top
rods. The reasons are also exactly the same as in the car analogy
which is often used. There is no point buying a Maserati or a
Lamborghini if you only drive a few miles to work in heavy traffic
every day, and are not even a very good driver, but people still do
it.


Keep in mind that the top rods come with top warrantys these days, and you
do pay for that.

One thing the constant upgrades in graphites and rod models do, is it
creates situations where dealers need to unload last year's model. This
can create some amazing deals for the wary shopper. I got my Sage SP like
this, not quite for a song, but for way less than the some odd $600 retail,
which I would never even consider.

--
Scott
Reverse name to reply

Thanks for all of the information. I was just curious due to the fact
that I looked at rod blanks and found it interesting that there was
such a wide gap in prices, even with the same "brands", going from the
IM6 blanks all the way up to the super high-end blanks. There is one
heck of an array of blanks out there and a guy could get one for a
very reasonable cost from a reputable manufacturer, or you could
mortgage the farm to buy the latest-and-greatest zillion-modulus
blank. Also, I was just wondering (in my original post) if the IM6
was "the bees knees" at one time too (and consequently an expensive
investment at THAT time).

Sounds like there ARE incremental improvements that have occurred with
each new generation of graphite, but manufacturers are always pushing
this to get us to buy the latest-and-greatest rods. They make a lot
of money, and we have an incrementally better rod, that may not be
THAT much of an improvement, and for a newbie like me it probably
wouldn't be money well-spent right now.

On Aug 14, 10:03 pm, mdk77 wrote:
Another newbie question. Did the graphite rods progress from IM6 to
IM7 to the super-high modulus rods that are high-end models today? In
other words, was there a time when IM6 was the best graphite
available?

Before there was the IM6 generation of graphite there were other
generations, some of those rods are considered classic todays. It is
not the graphite that determines the rod's action it is the taper of
the rod. At one point in History the G. Loomis company rolled the
blanks for themselves, RL Winston, and LL Bean all of IM6 graphite but
there was no way anyone was going to confuse the action of the Loomis
IMX rods series with the Winston IM6 rod series. Winston had to stop
using the IM6 graphite when they could no longer get it but the rod
series is still available under a different name at a different price
tho the graphite is no longer "it". At the same time there are those
selling rods made of whatever the latest graphite composite is for
significantly less than Sage sells its Xi2 for.

What is happening in the marketplace now is most of the sub-$300 rods
are rolled and finished somewhere overseas, typically Asia whereas
those above that price point are made in the USA (from the USA makers
anyway). Even the venerable House of Hardy in England has moved some
production to Asia. This is important to some people, not so to
others. The same thing is happening with fly reels.

The cynics here would have one believe that there is no appreciable
difference between a $100 import and a top of the line whatever or
anywhere in between. The truth being that all of them will deliver a
fly and fight a fish, just some do it better than others and different
anglers have different timing and strokes. What BobS did in the Rio
thread should be part of the ROFF faq for all newbies, get thee to the
local shop and get them to help you. Sure you can mail order something
less expensive from Cabela's but it may not be worth it to you in the
long run.

Before you assume anything about your skill level or even the price
point, it could be worth it for you to visit some places that have
shops and try some things out.

On Aug 15, 8:14 am, Scott Seidman wrote:


. Then I try the Winston Borons, and think those are a huge
improvement. Do I "need" it? That's another story.


Of course you need it. Not only because you like it but because some
single mother in Twin Bridges MT needs you to buy it so she can make
another and keep getting a paycheck.

On Aug 15, 6:45 pm, Wayne Knight wrote:
On Aug 14, 10:03 pm, mdk77 wrote:

Another newbie question. Did the graphite rods progress from IM6 to
IM7 to the super-high modulus rods that are high-end models today? In
other words, was there a time when IM6 was the best graphite
available?

Before there was the IM6 generation of graphite there were other
generations, some of those rods are considered classic todays. It is
not the graphite that determines the rod's action it is the taper of
the rod. At one point in History the G. Loomis company rolled the
blanks for themselves, RL Winston, and LL Bean all of IM6 graphite but
there was no way anyone was going to confuse the action of the Loomis
IMX rods series with the Winston IM6 rod series. Winston had to stop
using the IM6 graphite when they could no longer get it but the rod
series is still available under a different name at a different price
tho the graphite is no longer "it". At the same time there are those
selling rods made of whatever the latest graphite composite is for
significantly less than Sage sells its Xi2 for.

What is happening in the marketplace now is most of the sub-$300 rods
are rolled and finished somewhere overseas, typically Asia whereas
those above that price point are made in the USA (from the USA makers
anyway). Even the venerable House of Hardy in England has moved some
production to Asia. This is important to some people, not so to
others. The same thing is happening with fly reels.

The cynics here would have one believe that there is no appreciable
difference between a $100 import and a top of the line whatever or
anywhere in between. The truth being that all of them will deliver a
fly and fight a fish, just some do it better than others and different
anglers have different timing and strokes. What BobS did in the Rio
thread should be part of the ROFF faq for all newbies, get thee to the
local shop and get them to help you. Sure you can mail order something
less expensive from Cabela's but it may not be worth it to you in the
long run.

Before you assume anything about your skill level or even the price
point, it could be worth it for you to visit some places that have
shops and try some things out.

That is also a very fair analysis. In order to prevent any
misunderstandings, if it were possible, I would advise everybody,
including beginners, to go along to a shop and seek out the best rod
suited to you, regardless of price. But it is not possible, and the
price is not the problem either, even the most expensive rod you can
find is still cheap in terms of what other tackle costs, and your use
of it. I once worked out how much an expensive rod cost an average
angler, and it was only pennies per outing! Tippet material and other
stuff costs more than a rod, over time.

The problem is that beginners don´t know what suits them, because they
can´t do anything much. They usually don´t even really know what type
of fishing they are going to do.

Also, choosing a rod first, is a bad way to go. One should choose one
´s quarry first, decide how one is going to pursue it, with what
flies, under what circumatnces, and that determines the line required,
that in turn determines the rod required. hardly anybody does this.

Further, many anglers use various rods for various things, some just
collect them because they like to have a good range. Also, many people
´s tastes change in time. They may always like a certain soft rod, but
that does not stop them hankering after a fast one!

There are also people who use the same rod all their lives, catch
plenty of fish and enjoy themselves.

Finally, as Mr Knight pointed out, even in the high end rods, there
are massive differences.

Unless you take lessons with a good pro before you even buy a rod, you
wont even have an inkling of what to look for. The lessons might also
cost as much as a good rod, and very few people go this route.

If you can´t or don´t want to go that route, then itt is better to go
for a cheapie at first. As your skill and knowledge improves, and you
are able to handle more rods, learn more about them, so will your
ability to appreciate a good rod, and know whether it is for you.
Then, at the very latest, you will doubtless buy one.

TL
MC

On Aug 15, 11:45 am, Wayne Knight wrote:

What BobS did in the Rio
thread should be part of the ROFF faq for all newbies, get thee to the
local shop and get them to help you. Sure you can mail order something
less expensive from Cabela's but it may not be worth it to you in the
long run.

It's frustrating when you live in a place (like I live) where there
are no "local shops" for fly fishing. I can go to my "local shop" and
find out about hogging catfish in the Mackinaw River, or what stink
bait the catfish are biting on, or even talk with the guys with the
zillion-horsepower bass boats who fish rods with actions like pool
cues.

But fly fishing?

I tried that with the "local shop" owner and he said "Oh. Are you one
of those 'wand-wavers'? and looked at me like I had dog poop on my
shoe :-) That's a true story.

Wanna "try out a few fly rods"? Ain't any. Not one. Not anywhere.
No way, no how. This is Central Illinois.

I finally (and I mean finally) over the winter found an older
gentleman who put on local fly fishing and fly tying classes at the
library at a tiny town South of here. I found this guy, by pure
chance, as he doesn't to my knowledge, advertise anywhere. He was
GREAT, and took us fishing, and I learned a lot from him.

But I get kindof torqued off when folks say "just go down to the local
shop and try out a few fly rods" It would be comical if it weren't so
sad. I have to do the mail-order for everything, especially fly
materials. Yes, I could drive to a bigger midwest city like Chicago,
but I'm not that close, and it's not something I can do as easy as
others who just drop by the "local shop" to try out fly rods.

I just thank the Good Lord I stumbled upon the local gentleman. He's
been a godsend. You folks with the "local shops" and other fly
fishermen are truly blessed. Hey, when I fly fish around here
(seriously) they look at me like I just landed from planet Mars.
Folks will watch me for awhile, and sometimes will approach me in awe
and ask "why are you fishing with plastic line?". One African-
American gentleman asked just what the heck I was doing, and when I
told him I was fly fishing he said "I thought so" and then yelled over
to his buddies "hey he really is fly fishing"!!!

But usually I catch a lot of fish, even when the locals are not
catching squat. And that REALLY gets them going. One day I had a bit
of a crowd that just gathered round as I was catching a lot of fish --
one little girl would gleefully run to the crowd each time I pulled in
a fish and shout "He's got another one!!!!". That part's fun.

But no "local shop's" around here :-(

mdk77 wrote:
On Aug 15, 11:45 am, Wayne Knight wrote:
What BobS did in the Rio
thread should be part of the ROFF faq for all newbies, get thee to the
local shop and get them to help you. Sure you can mail order something
less expensive from Cabela's but it may not be worth it to you in the
long run.

It's frustrating when you live in a place (like I live) where there
are no "local shops" for fly fishing. I can go to my "local shop" and
find out about hogging catfish in the Mackinaw River, or what stink
bait the catfish are biting on, or even talk with the guys with the
zillion-horsepower bass boats who fish rods with actions like pool
cues.

But fly fishing?

I tried that with the "local shop" owner and he said "Oh. Are you one
of those 'wand-wavers'? and looked at me like I had dog poop on my
shoe :-) That's a true story.

Wanna "try out a few fly rods"? Ain't any. Not one. Not anywhere.
No way, no how. This is Central Illinois. ...

I feel your pain. There is a fly shop in Springfield, I've
never been there but I have met the two guys who run it at
our little Outdoor Expo here at the National Guard Armory
in Urbana one winter. They seem knowledgable enough but
never having been there I don't know about inventory etc.

Fly Fishers Outfit
300 W. Allen
Springfield, IL
217.544.7218

I'm originally from E. St. Louis and my family still lives
in the St. Louis area so when I need to visit a fly shop
I go to Feather Craft in St. Louis. I recommend them highly,
especially for being able to go out back and cast as many
different rods as you care to cast.

--
Ken Fortenberry

On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 18:51:56 -0000, mdk77
wrote:

But no "local shop's" around here :-(

That, of course, makes it tough to test a rod. Fortunately we have
two great fly shop owners who haunt these pages: Bill Kiene and Walt
Winter. I've already given you Walt's web page and it contains his
phone number. He is a gentle man always willing to help a newbie with
just about any question you can think of.

As far as trying different rods, well, I am sure there is a fly
fishing show near you in the wintertime. They come around this area
in January. Fortenberry can probably tell you where the closest one
is to you. Go to it. You will find most of the major rod companies
represented, with fly rods you may try at the show's casting "pond".
It was at such a show that I discovered Winston rods. However, you
need not go the high road on rods; you should be able to find
something that suits your "style" of casting and at a reasonable
price.

I look forward to the winter shows. Sort of helps with the cabin
fever.

Dave

Ken & Dave, thanks for the info. I probably will take a road trip to
St. Louis this Fall and check out Feather Craft. Dave, I didn't think
about going to a winter show. That's a great idea, and something to
look forward to when the snows flying around here. I can probably
"Google" and find out when and where these shows will be. Thanks.