Disaster and partial compensation

Mike wrote:
Ken Fortenberry wrote:
Mike wrote:
Why would you want to catch plastic, artificially coloured trout, from
an artificial enclosure anyway? Quite apart from the extreme
environmental impact occasioned by the breeding and rearing of such
fish.
If you ever get the chance to eat a piece of fresh run seatrout, then
you should probably avoid it, as it will immediately cure you of any
illusions in respect to the taste of force fed rainbows forever. Then
there would be no point in catching them either.
I'd rather fish for wild fish as opposed to stockers but fishing
for stockers is better than no fishing at all. And to say that
there's no point in catching fish which don't taste like wild
fish is just silly. There are many reasons to catch a fish that
have nothing whatsoever to do with how the fish tastes compared
to wild fish.

Ah well, as this is a serious and important subject, I will do my best
to enlighten you on the matter.
hatchery bashing rant snipped

Fisheries management has evolved over the years and fisheries
managers have learned not to endanger natives with stockers,
Montana no longer stocks it's streams, but there's nothing
wrong with putting stockers into degraded habitat where natural
reproduction cannot occur. There is value in getting people
invested in the outdoors even if it's just to catch a stocker.

Most of your rant appears to be about aquaculture which is
something quite different than raising and releasing juvenile
fish from a fish hatchery.

--
Ken Fortenberry

On 13 Sep, 13:42, Ken Fortenberry
wrote:


Fisheries management has evolved over the years and fisheries
managers have learned not to endanger natives with stockers,
Montana no longer stocks it's streams, but there's nothing
wrong with putting stockers into degraded habitat where natural
reproduction cannot occur. There is value in getting people
invested in the outdoors even if it's just to catch a stocker.

Most of your rant appears to be about aquaculture which is
something quite different than raising and releasing juvenile
fish from a fish hatchery.

--
Ken Fortenberry

Well Kenny, if you knew anything at all about the majority of
"angling" in the UK and many parts of Europe, which you obviously don
´t, then you would know that there are no juvenile fish raised from
hatcheries and released into various waters. The fish are force fed on
pellets obtained from grinding up marine protein, and released at
"catchable" size for "anglers" to catch. The "catchable" size varies
from water to water and what the "anglers" are prepared to pay. A 20
lb force fed rainbow is much more expensive than a 2 lb force fed
rainbow, as the two pounder cost about 8 lbs of marine protein to
raise, and the twenty pounder cost about 90...100 lbs. many of these
fish are deformed, as a result of being held in stew ponds ( force
feeding ponds with high densities of fish), many, indeed most, have
damaged fins and tails, or lack them altogether. All of these fish
have been heavily dosed with various hormones and chemicals, as they
would otherwise not survive at all, and various diseases are quite
common.

None of the habitat into which they are released is "degraded", in
point of fact the majority of such habitat is drinking water
reservoirs, or artificial ponds specifically created for the purpose,
and nearly all the fish are sterile rainbows, as releasing fertile
fish, which has occasionally occurred, would result in further
ecological disasters. Releasing sterile fish is generally illegal in
most places.

Natural habitat and fish stocks have indeed been destroyed in many
places, as a direct result of releasing stocked fish into running
waters which can not support an influx of large fish in that quantity,
and the species pyramid is usually completely wiped out by the larger
stock fish, which if not caught within a certain period of time, die
of starvation after having hoovered up what was available to them.

If you had the "savvy" of a common house brick, then you could quite
easily find all this out for yourself.

But because you are an arrogant, ignorant, **** of the very finest
kind, you prefer to ignore reality, and play your silly little games
here at other people´s expense.

Have a nice day dumbo.

MC

Typo correction.

For "Releasing sterile fish is generally illegal in
most places."

Read "Releasing fertile fish................."

MC

Monstrosities like this are the norm rather than the exception on many
waters;

http://www.finandfly.com/gallery/ima...c8e7fe5a57.jpg

http://members.fortunecity.com/timev...glad/trout.jpg

http://www.samtsai.com/pix/yadayada/p238.jpg

There are plenty more, because the unfortunate "anglers" who catch
these objects of pity and contempt don´t know any better, ( much like
you) and actually pose for photos with them.

MC

For anybody who might be seriously interested in the problem, ( which
will eventually catch you up in America as well, as a result of "knock-
on" marine ecological effects, rising human population, pollution,
and the almost criminal ignorance of "anglers" like Kenny, among other
things )

http://www.globefish.org/index.php?i...tid=1640476505

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_meal

http://www.thefishsite.com/articles/...aculture-diets

There are plenty of information sites.

MC

Mike wrote:
For anybody who might be seriously interested in the problem, ( which
will eventually catch you up in America as well, as a result of "knock-
on" marine ecological effects, rising human population, pollution,
and the almost criminal ignorance of "anglers" like Kenny, among other
things )

http://www.globefish.org/index.php?i...tid=1640476505

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_meal

http://www.thefishsite.com/articles/...aculture-diets

There are plenty of information sites.

Yeah, like I said earlier you're conflating aquaculture with
fisheries management. Fisheries management has come a long way
from simple "put and take" in most parts of the US, although
some states still do it and some anglers still follow the
hatchery trucks around and fish with "pellet lures". On the
other hand there is a lot of fishable water that would have
no fish at all if not for fish hatcheries and the economy of
northern Wisconsin would take an enormous hit if not for the
annual release of thousands of musky fry from the hatcheries.

Besides, when folks are fishing stocked waters that makes
more room for me on wild waters. ;-)

--
Ken Fortenberry

On 13 Sep, 15:48, Ken Fortenberry
wrote:
Mike wrote:


Yeah, like I said earlier you're conflating aquaculture with
fisheries management. Fisheries management has come a long way
from simple "put and take" in most parts of the US, although
some states still do it and some anglers still follow the
hatchery trucks around and fish with "pellet lures". On the
other hand there is a lot of fishable water that would have
no fish at all if not for fish hatcheries and the economy of
northern Wisconsin would take an enormous hit if not for the
annual release of thousands of musky fry from the hatcheries.

Besides, when folks are fishing stocked waters that makes
more room for me on wild waters. ;-)

--
Ken Fortenberry

The subject is stocked rainbow trout in a UK fishery. You don´t know
anything about it. But never fear, I am sure you eventually will.

Because you obviously have very extensive resources in America, it
will take longer for some of these effects to have the same results,
but many of your anadromous fish runs are already severely affected,
and will continue to decline unless the rape of the seas around and in
the vicinity of your own coastlines is stopped.

Nothing on this planet is entirely divorced from anything else,
( excepting human understanding). Marine ecology has massive effects
on fresh water ecology, initially the effects are mainly restricted to
various marine and anadromous fish, but this has other effects. many
of the interdependencies are extremely complex.

So, the results of completely undermining the basic marine food chain
are drastic and comparatively sudden. MASSIVE amounts of bait fish
are being caught, turned into fish meal at another MASSIVE loss ratio,
to produce inferior farmed fish, pet food, and a host of other
things.

Left in place, that bait would produce more and better fish. Quite
apart from its other functions, many of which are not even known.

ALL the stocked rainbow trout in Europe are the result of limited gene
pool breeding from a few original steelhead strains. MASSIVE numbers
of these fish are bred, reared, and grown on to "catchable" sizes
using fish meal. This is accompanied and compounded by the use of
chemicals and hormones, and the increased incidence of various
diseases, some previously unknown, as a result of intensive farming of
these fish. Deformities and the lack of fins and tails are common and
symptomatic.

Some extremely serious diseases have already been spread, and
completely decimated even large salmon runs, as a result of
transporting farmed rainbow trout for stocking purposes. Some
countries have had to resort to completely poisoning rivers of all
life in an attempt ( probably quite futile) to damn the problem. This
could only work if there were enough fish to restock the rivers
anyway. This alone is now a problem.

Fish farms have absolutely devastated whole areas of coastline, making
it impossible for salmon and sea trout to survive, as under and around
the farm cages, and for wide areas beyond, massive concentrations of
sea lice, kept largely at bay in the cages with various chemicals,
attack the wild smolts, and kill them before they can move out to sea.

Most predatory fish ( especially salmonoids) which are grown on beyond
the fry stage, require fish meal/oil in their diets. There is no
substitute for this as yet. Practically all this is provided by
catching bait fish.

Your resources are large, but not infinite, and your population is as
yet relatively thinly spread, but growing apace. Quite a few things
are affecting you now, when your population increases further, as it
is steadily doing all the time, those problems will multiply and
intensify.

Enough. I am sure you can Google it if you are interested at all.

MC

"Ken Fortenberry" wrote in message
...
Mike wrote:
For anybody who might be seriously interested in the problem, ( which
will eventually catch you up in America as well, as a result of "knock-
on" marine ecological effects, rising human population, pollution,
and the almost criminal ignorance of "anglers" like Kenny, among other
things )

http://www.globefish.org/index.php?i...tid=1640476505

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_meal

http://www.thefishsite.com/articles/...aculture-diets

There are plenty of information sites.

Yeah, like I said earlier you're conflating aquaculture with
fisheries management. Fisheries management has come a long way
from simple "put and take" in most parts of the US, although
some states still do it and some anglers still follow the
hatchery trucks around and fish with "pellet lures". On the
other hand there is a lot of fishable water that would have
no fish at all if not for fish hatcheries and the economy of
northern Wisconsin would take an enormous hit if not for the
annual release of thousands of musky fry from the hatcheries.

Besides, when folks are fishing stocked waters that makes
more room for me on wild waters. ;-)

--
Ken Fortenberry

Ken, I don't think those across the big pond understand what you are trying
to say... Releasing small fry into the waters and letting them feed in a
more natural state instead of FORCE feeding the fish at a high cost is
something they just don't know about I guess....

Rick In Wisconsin

any articles on it at all? Not much on the UK sites.

There are a few articles of mine on the matter scattered around the
internet, and I am still active in various organisations such as the
SACN of which I am still an executive member ( Info here; http://www.sacn.org.uk/
), but we are mainly fighting rearguard actions, complacency, and
ignorance, and have been for years. It really is quite disheartening
when people on various boards ask "Where are the seatrout", or "Where
are the cod", etc etc. Any angler who fishes for such fish, or
expects his children to be able to, has no right to be so ignorant.
Five minutes on any search machine, or the websites of various
organisations which concern themselves with such matters, would give
anybody interested far more answers than they want to hear. Salt water
fly-fishing has become a bit of a fad for quite a few, but with the
severe lack of fish, that too is fading.

American groups and websites are even worse, they don´t know anything
at all about many of these problems, as they are as yet not personally
involved to any considerable degree, and don´t even realise they are
already on the same slippery slope. It will be the same there as it
is here, and they will all be weeping and wailing "how could this
happen"? and similar laments, but it appears to be human nature to be
preoccupied with money and personal problems, especially those matters
about which one feels more or less powerless. Quite a number are
totally obsessed with "catch and release" as some sort of "magic
solution", but of course it does not work when there are no fish! The
effects of decimating the food chain in large areas of ocean, in and
around America, also has severe effects on their pelagic and
anadromous fish, but it seems most just fly to Alaska or Russia or
somewhere and remain blithely ignorant and/or complacent to problems
at home.

ROFF is a special case, and much of the animosity there is doubtless
my own fault for antagonising some people. This more or less precludes
any sensible discussion, as they don´t want the info, they just want
to **** me about. Not much I can do about it. Most people e-mail me
nowadays, as you have done. The UK group seems to have died, some
loonies with a load of rubbish about MI5 or something, more or less
blanketed the group recently. I think that may have been the last
straw for some people.

Anyway, the basic facts are fairly clear. Once large areas of ocean
die as a result of these machinations, ( there are a large number of
such dead areas already, they are increasing daily) they are unable
to regenerate in any reasonable time frame. Even with the poisoning
which is occurring to many as a result of eating "farmed" fish, ( they
accumulate far more toxins than wild fish, for various reasons, and
are also subjected to a massive bombardment of chemicals and hormones,
[many illegal], known carcinogens, heavy metals, and a variety of
other things), most farmed salmon is actually dangerous to eat now,
many people still buy it, despite extensive information campaigns..
Even the most widely used colouring matter is a known serious
carcinogen, it will have to kill or damage a lot more people before
anybody really takes any notice.

Several million anglers in the UK alone go fishing for these execrable
stocked rainbows. Even when they are informed about the effects and
dangers, the only result is complacency, or indeed anger and
resentment at those who would "take away their pleasure". Selective
blindness as a result of not wanting to lose personal gratification,
such as it is. Of course it is not angling, but the vast majority know
no better.

In the meantime, there are a massive number of factors, especially
affecting stocked fish, some extremely complex. For those who go along
to their local reservoirs and pay their money for a day fishing, they
just want to haul out more and bigger monstrosities. Many actually
throw the fish away. There are also a large number of "anglers"
clamouring for "catch and release" in these places. This is gross
contempt and misuse of the unfortunate creatures involved, quite apart
from any other considerations.

With regard to the sandeels, these are being hoovered up in incredible
masses and used as fish meal or pet food etc. For a while they were
even be used to fuel power stations, maybe they still are. It has
become increasingly difficult to obtain specific information,
especially from the fish food companies and the "gammel-fishers". Of
course these fish, ( it is a fish, related to the cod family, and not
an eel) are a basic food item for many fish, and if there is no food,
then there are no fish, or far fewer and smaller ones. Overfishing and
pollution does the rest. Despite years of campaigning and lobbying, a
very great deal of time and effort, and not a little money, our bass
campaign was at last a failure, because the politicians went back on
their words. It is only a matter of time before the bass are extinct
around the UK coast. The same may be said of many other fish. There
is no end to it, and it is a very steeply sliding spiral. There are
limits beyond which fish populations can not regenerate, even if left
alone, and once the basic food chain is seriously disturbed, this can
happen very very quickly indeed. It is not likely that the bass will
recover at all.

Just following a few links from the SACN site will give you a lot more
info. If you wish to do something, then join. Money is always welcome,
but it is better to educate others if you can. Also, you must not
expect to gain any personal advantage, or better fishing in your
lifetime. Indeed, it may simply be all a total waste of time, but then
again it might not. We have had a few successes as well.

Anyway, have a look at the site first.

Best wishes, regards, and tight lines!

Mike Connor