Leaders with least memory? (Also, wallet suggestion?)

On 18 Sep, 15:14, "Tom Nakashima" wrote:


Mike,
I enjoy having that memory in the line with nylon leaders & tippets. For me
it acts as cushion or shock absorber when you're hooked onto a fighting
fish. There were times on my past trip this past July on an Alaskan River,
that some of the rainbows would turn their heads in a split second when
hooked, or come out of the water and shake their heads violently. My friend
on the other hand has used fluorocarbon tippets, and there were quite a few
times he had broken off from violent shakes
I was wondering your take on this?
-tom

There is rather a problem with the nomenclature here. All nylon has
memory, ( as do all thermoplastics). this is what makes them flexible
and elastic, and as this property is intrinsic, it can not be removed.

What happens to nylon line, is that after being stored in coils, or
kinked etc, the line retains the memory of that state, and in order to
remove that state, the memory of the line must be adjusted, by heating
and stretching.

If thermoplastics are bent or stretched beyond their memory capability
to restore themselves, and don´t break, they may lose even the
possibility of restoration in that specific area of the line.The
molecular orientation is damaged.

When one winds nylon line on to a plastic spool under tension for
instance, the line still tries to return to its original state as a
result of its intrinsic memory. This cause the line to contract, as
it was stretched when wound on to the spool. This causes massive
pressure on the spool, and can easily break or deform plastic spools,
but it also programs the memory of the line to remain in tight coils.

The only way to restore the line, is to heat it to a suitable
temperature, and stretch it very slightly, if kept straight and
rapidly cooled, it will stay straight, as the long molecule ( Polymer
chains), have been reoriented. The result is also stronger per se, as
longitudinally oriented molecules are stronger than any other
orientation. The result is also thinner. This is how "super strong"
nylon is made, it is stretched under the application of heat, after
manufacture, and then rapidly cooled. If ordinary is nylon kept
straight, BUT UNDER NO TENSION AT ALL, and allowed to cool naturally,
it will return almost completely to its original state.

The same applies to any thermoplastic. If you pull a piece of
polythene until it deforms, the resulting piece is much stronger when
pulling stress is applied, but it will not deform any further, if
stretched beyond this point, it will simply break.

Fluorocarbon lines are merely pre stretched nylon lines coated with
fluorocarbon. The fluorocarbon compounds used have lesser or no
memory properties, and sudden stress causes them to break, as they can
not extend.

There is no real point in using fluorocarbon lines at all, They are
not less visible to the fish, and they are intrinsically weaker than
any other thermoplastic copolymer ( Nylon is a copolymer) lines, not
least as as a result of their lack of memory, and abrasion resistance.
Their much vaunted sinking capabilities are overrated.

Also, as the dreaded Fortenberry also quite correctly pointed out,
they will last a very long time, as fluorocarbon coated line will not
degrade like ordinary nylon line.

I agree with you up to a point and that is why I also use ordinary
nylon, as it has a considerable degree of elasticity, ( due to
intrinsic memory), and cushions itself to a degree.

However, I don´t like curls and kinks in my leaders, as for some of
the techniques I use, they would cause me to lose a lot of fish, or
prevent correct presentation. So I normally warm my leaders up ( on
stream, in hot coffee etc), and stretch them very slightly, and allow
them to coll, so that they remain staright.

TL
MC

On 18 Sep, 15:45, Mike wrote:


Sorry about the typos there! Trying to make sure my lunch does not
burn, and typing at the same time!

That is also why knots in fluorocarbon nylon are extremely
unreliable. The marketing boys don´t tell you about all this of
course! They tell you to try other knots!

TL
MC

"Mike" wrote in message
ups.com...
On 18 Sep, 15:14, "Tom Nakashima" wrote:


Mike,
I enjoy having that memory in the line with nylon leaders & tippets. For
me
it acts as cushion or shock absorber when you're hooked onto a fighting
fish. There were times on my past trip this past July on an Alaskan
River,
that some of the rainbows would turn their heads in a split second when
hooked, or come out of the water and shake their heads violently. My
friend
on the other hand has used fluorocarbon tippets, and there were quite a
few
times he had broken off from violent shakes
I was wondering your take on this?
-tom

There is rather a problem with the nomenclature here. All nylon has
memory, ( as do all thermoplastics). this is what makes them flexible
and elastic, and as this property is intrinsic, it can not be removed.

What happens to nylon line, is that after being stored in coils, or
kinked etc, the line retains the memory of that state, and in order to
remove that state, the memory of the line must be adjusted, by heating
and stretching.

If thermoplastics are bent or stretched beyond their memory capability
to restore themselves, and don´t break, they may lose even the
possibility of restoration in that specific area of the line.The
molecular orientation is damaged.

When one winds nylon line on to a plastic spool under tension for
instance, the line still tries to return to its original state as a
result of its intrinsic memory. This cause the line to contract, as
it was stretched when wound on to the spool. This causes massive
pressure on the spool, and can easily break or deform plastic spools,
but it also programs the memory of the line to remain in tight coils.

The only way to restore the line, is to heat it to a suitable
temperature, and stretch it very slightly, if kept straight and
rapidly cooled, it will stay straight, as the long molecule ( Polymer
chains), have been reoriented. The result is also stronger per se, as
longitudinally oriented molecules are stronger than any other
orientation. The result is also thinner. This is how "super strong"
nylon is made, it is stretched under the application of heat, after
manufacture, and then rapidly cooled. If ordinary is nylon kept
straight, BUT UNDER NO TENSION AT ALL, and allowed to cool naturally,
it will return almost completely to its original state.

The same applies to any thermoplastic. If you pull a piece of
polythene until it deforms, the resulting piece is much stronger when
pulling stress is applied, but it will not deform any further, if
stretched beyond this point, it will simply break.

Fluorocarbon lines are merely pre stretched nylon lines coated with
fluorocarbon. The fluorocarbon compounds used have lesser or no
memory properties, and sudden stress causes them to break, as they can
not extend.

There is no real point in using fluorocarbon lines at all, They are
not less visible to the fish, and they are intrinsically weaker than
any other thermoplastic copolymer ( Nylon is a copolymer) lines, not
least as as a result of their lack of memory, and abrasion resistance.
Their much vaunted sinking capabilities are overrated.

Also, as the dreaded Fortenberry also quite correctly pointed out,
they will last a very long time, as fluorocarbon coated line will not
degrade like ordinary nylon line.

I agree with you up to a point and that is why I also use ordinary
nylon, as it has a considerable degree of elasticity, ( due to
intrinsic memory), and cushions itself to a degree.

However, I don´t like curls and kinks in my leaders, as for some of
the techniques I use, they would cause me to lose a lot of fish, or
prevent correct presentation. So I normally warm my leaders up ( on
stream, in hot coffee etc), and stretch them very slightly, and allow
them to coll, so that they remain staright.

TL
MC

Thanks for clearing that up.
Yes, I stretch enough to take out the coils when casting, especially
when putting on new leaders and tippets.
I've seen those leather leader strengtheners, but never tried one, I've
just been using my hands to somewhat heat the leader material as I pull, at
least it's enough to take out some of the memory.

oh btw: I do enjoy your contributions to the group on fly-fishing....
-tom

On 18 Sep, 16:20, "Tom Nakashima" wrote:
"Mike" wrote in message


Thanks for clearing that up.
Yes, I stretch enough to take out the coils when casting, especially
when putting on new leaders and tippets.
I've seen those leather leader strengtheners, but never tried one, I've
just been using my hands to somewhat heat the leader material as I pull, at
least it's enough to take out some of the memory.

oh btw: I do enjoy your contributions to the group on fly-fishing....
-tom

Quite a few people use the leader straighteners, and they will in fact
work on the heavier nylon of butts etc, but if you use them on thin
points or tippets, thy will invariably damage the line. If you can
manage to straighten your leaders simply by pulling them through your
fingers, then this is the best way to go. It will usually remove curls
etc, if done properly, but ti wont remove kinks etc.

Just stretching the line, as some people seem to think, has no effect,
as the memory is not removed, heat is required to remove it. This
also applies to PVC fly lines. Stretching them as is often advised,
will not remove the memory, and will often only cause cracks in the
coating, and cause it to de-adhere form the non flexible core. To
remove the memory, put the line in very warm water, and then hold it
taut, ( but NOT overstretched) . This will make it perfectly straight
again, and it will remain so when it cools.

oh btw: I do enjoy your contributions to the group on fly-fishing....

I much prefer them myself! But needs must when the devil ( or his
associates!) drives.

TL
MC

On 18 Sep, 16:20, "Tom Nakashima" wrote:

oh btw: I do enjoy your contributions to the group on fly-fishing....
-tom

Just in case it was not clear, my main reason for using Maxima, is
because it has a matt finish. I consider this to be of paramount
importance, especially, but not only, for dry fly fishing. Most other
nylons have a smooth mirror finish, and the glinting from this can
spook fish badly. One may de-glint nylon by pulling it through a
paste of Fuller´s earth, but this is not necessary with Maxima. Also,
to make it sink, one merely needs to pull it through a very dilute
soap solution.

Unfortunately, and directly due to the "rough" matt finish, it is more
or less impossible to straighten fine Maxima using your fingers, or
(leader straighteners), the co-efficient of friction is very much
greater than that of smooth nylon, and usually it will break.

TL
MC

On 18 Sep, 17:24, Mike wrote:


You might also like to try the technique described at the bottom of
the following article. These work very well indeed for a lot of
things, and can be made limp and straight by dipping them in boiling
water, and keeping them straight while they cool;

http://www.mike-connor.homepage.t-on...nes/lines.html

Just as an interesting aside, many guitarists boil their strings
before a concert, this "re-formats" the molecular orientation of the
string, ( both nylon and metal strings like steel or bronze wound),
and they sound crisper. The effect does not last long though, and can
only be used a couple of times at most, but it saves spending a lot of
money on brand new strings every time.

TL
MC

One last point which may be of use to some. Many years ago now, it was
common for people to wind a few leaders around their hats. This works
very well. One removes any memory at home, and winds the resulting
straight limp leaders around the hat. I have an Orvis Gore-tex wide
brimmed hat, which I use expressly for this purpose. I have had this
hat a very long time now, over thirty years. I made some special
lambswool hat bands for it, with a short piece of elasticated material
( knicker, or "shirring" elastic). usnig these I can carry half a
dozen leaders easily, and because they are in large coils, they never
cause any problems.

The lambswool bands ( dyed brown in order to be less conspicuous), are
also very useful for sticking wet flies in. (Wont work for barbless
hooks of course) The hat band shown is a sal****er seatrout band.

http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/7215/pict0001yo5.jpg

http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/9328/pict0002uc6.jpg

http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/9968/pict0003cy8.jpg

Of course, this only works if you use such a hat.

TL
MC

"Mike" wrote in message
oups.com...
On 18 Sep, 17:24, Mike wrote:


You might also like to try the technique described at the bottom of
the following article. These work very well indeed for a lot of
things, and can be made limp and straight by dipping them in boiling
water, and keeping them straight while they cool;

http://www.mike-connor.homepage.t-on...nes/lines.html

Just as an interesting aside, many guitarists boil their strings
before a concert, this "re-formats" the molecular orientation of the
string, ( both nylon and metal strings like steel or bronze wound),
and they sound crisper. The effect does not last long though, and can
only be used a couple of times at most, but it saves spending a lot of
money on brand new strings every time.

TL
MC



I do like the warm water technique for straightening out leaders.
-tom

On 18 Sep, 18:48, "Tom Nakashima" wrote:
"Mike" wrote in message

oups.com...



On 18 Sep, 17:24, Mike wrote:

You might also like to try the technique described at the bottom of
the following article. These work very well indeed for a lot of
things, and can be made limp and straight by dipping them in boiling
water, and keeping them straight while they cool;

http://www.mike-connor.homepage.t-on..._Long_Rod/Line...

Just as an interesting aside, many guitarists boil their strings
before a concert, this "re-formats" the molecular orientation of the
string, ( both nylon and metal strings like steel or bronze wound),
and they sound crisper. The effect does not last long though, and can
only be used a couple of times at most, but it saves spending a lot of
money on brand new strings every time.

TL
MC

I do like the warm water technique for straightening out leaders.
-tom

On 18 Sep, 18:01, "Tom Nakashima" wrote:


You're the 2nd person in this newsgroup that suggested Maxima
leaders for good reason, I'll have to try them.
-tom

Actually I only consider it important for tippet, it is not necessary
to buy the whole leaders;

http://www.flyfishusa.com/leaders/maxima.html

I am not sure about the other blurb on it. I don´t know whether "infra
red sensitivity" makes any difference, but it sounds suspiciously like
bull****!

It would also be pointless to use the leaders with the wrong tippet.

Many old time anglers dyed their tippets, either of gut or horsehair,
to suit particular conditions. This made a big difference with gut,
and many considered it essential to success. All the old wet fly books
give recipes for dyeing tippet, and many of these will work on nylon
as well. I have tried a couple, but to be honest I never noticed any
major difference to other nylon. I have however noticed major
differences when using matt maxima. I get fewer refusals to dry
flies, and it also works better for a lot of "shallow", ( barely
subsurface) spider techniques. I also use it for droppers in this
regard, and as it is somewhat stiffer than many other products of the
same diameter and breaking strain, it tangles less.

People get to prefer some things out of habit, and because it works OK
for them, so they don´t bother trying much else. I prefer to base my
choices on more concrete reasons, and so I have tried many things over
the years. It is not enough for me to know that something works, I
like to know why.

Attention to detail catches more fish than any other single skill.

TL
MC

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Also, practically any other nylon will work just as well if it is de-
glinted and is not completely clear. ( or some ridiculous colour like
fluorescent yellow or red etc) I dyed some nylon blue, and de-glinted
it with Fuller´s earth, and it worked just as well as the maxima. But
the maxima saves me messing about like that. It is already dyed and de-
glinted.

TL
MC