Newbie Question: How many fly sizes & colors to tie for next season?

"Willi" wrote

.. This
year it would most likely be a caddis dry and a soft hackle dropper -
what I've used this year for 90% of my stream and river fishing. I
generally out fish this young man, not because I have the "right"
fly but because if I am not catching fish, I change how and where I am
presenting the flies instead of changing them.



Several things come to mind .... in no particular order

---
I doubt that I am as pattern oriented as my posts have made you believe ....
if I'm fishing to rising fish ( I'll drive 1000 to find em, went to the
local river today and couldn't work up enough interest to fish without
them ) I will assume my presentation is wrong, rather than my fly until I
have put several drifts over the fish that looked so good I really expected
a rise

---

Exception to above might be if the fish rises in a manner ( rise form ) that
indicates my dry fly should be replaced with a damp one ... I'm a visible
fish addict not a dry fly addict

-----

I, too, believe that presentation far outweighs pattern in importance ...
simply because every fish demands a good presentation, only a few demand the
right fly ( same thing you said relative to selective being rare )

---

I fish for fun and honestly believe that most days I "could" increase my
catch by changing tactics/presentation. Catching is not the most fun part
of my day, most days. I don't mean to imply I believe I could fish "with"
you or other very skilled anglers, just that I very often consciously decide
to keep fishing a method I enjoy when I'm certain other methods would
produce better.

I once met a guy that recited "his numbers" for the last few days and they
were very impressive. I said, "I'm sorry about that." when he finished.
He asked, "Did YOU do better?" unable to believe I was kissing his feet.
"No, not even close. I'm just sorry that you haven't got better reasons to
fish than numbers."

-----

I enjoy the BS about identifying the bugs, seining the water and "matching
the hatch" FOR ITSELF, not just for it's hoped for increase in fish landed.
When a given VISIBLE fish eludes me I will cast without changing flies until
I feel I've shown him good presentations ... then I'll start changing flies,
trying to approach the change analytically not randomly. I end up
catching him more often than not ( although there is no way to say it was
pattern, I may have just finally gotten a good float )

----

the reverse is true, for me, about some tactics. Changing weight on the
leader to meet the requirements of a new slot being nymph fished is the
definition of tedious. If I rig a certain way and am "fishing the water"
there is no way I can conjure up enough enthusiasm to re-rig for new
conditions or to fish with concentration for more than a few minutes

----

Moving to a new area or new fish is generally the "right tactic" when the
current one proves difficult, to catch numbers. But, I almost never move
on if I can see him and he's a decent size for the water. I'm a "one on
one" angler and I don't give a damn if the fish right over there would eat
what/how I'm fishing .... I want THIS one G

----

One main reason I usually fish alone is that my measurements of "good day"
never seem to match those of other anglers. A couple hours of the fishing
I really like and a handful of fish caught is a wonderful day to me. I
have no desire to fish "all day" and when the numbers caught get into the
high teens or a big fish or two has been landed I feel I've "limited out"
for the day.

----

Days happen that were exceptions, but normally I have to SEE my fish to
enjoy trying to catch him. The fact that I therefore know I'm getting
refusals tips the scales towards "pattern" in my thoughts.

I have watched nymphers at say the San Juan stand in one spot and cast over
and over and over and over into the same slot. OBVIOUSLY they are getting
refusals but they don't seem to think of it that way. I often wonder if
they would keep flogging a riser that way.

There is something very different in the mindset that comes after weeks of
fishing to nothing but visible fish that I never experienced back when I
mainly fished small freestones in the Sierra. Mind you I make no claim it
is superior, just different. Even with arthritis that demands pain pills
every day, I'll walk a couple miles looking for fish I can see without
making a cast till I find him, and be content .... I'd be bored to tears
casting to "could be there" water for two miles.

----

Anyway I'm getting too far afield. Just suffice it to say that I'm aware
of most of the things I do wrong ( if numbers are the measure ), don't think
anybody else "should" have my attitudes, and still manage to enjoy my
fishing far more than back when I ALWAYS started with an Adams and if they
didn't eat it I'd switch places to fish.

----

HeHe Flashback !!

My first fly rod trout ate a #12 Adams just above Chittenden Bridge in the
Yellowstone River For years that was the only fly I had any real faith in
and I'd flail away with one forever assuming that any trout anywhere would
eat it and it had to be "drag" that was my problem.

A few years ago I went to Slough Creek and decided to tie some #12 Adams
just for that day. Just for the heck of it I wanted to catch a Yellowstone
Cutt like that first one fly rod fish with that same first fly.

I had a banner day.

Later that week I chatted with John Jurachek and told him how much fun it
had been to go back to the "old pattern" and celebrate 35+ years fishing in
Yellowstone. He asked, " Do you know why that Adams worked so well?"
I said, "Oh yeah, the Gray Drakes were still around." John, "Yep, that's
it It won't work that well much longer this season on Slough Creek"

I like my fishing a whole lot better "thinking" I know why that first fish
in the Yellowstone ate that Adams ... I didn't have a clue then, but now I
know it was Gray Drake time and the guy at the fly shop in Jackson really
did know what was a good pattern to toss when he picked the adams for me.

----

One of the best things about fly fishing is it offers so much variation.
You love your style, I love mine. I bet you lean towards "mine" some days.
One of the first things you posted a few years, that I remember, was a
comment about "olives" really being more gray than olive ... in a paragraph
about how "color don't matter,. presentation do" .. the irony was noticed,
the powers of observation admired.

Some days I love to just swing a soft hackle, Nemes style, and never
consider bugs. I still love small freestones and always have a half dozen
small attractors with me, but my arthritis pain steals most of the pleasure
from the hike so I only do such places a couple times a season.


___

"Larry L" wrote

He asked, "Did YOU do better?" unable to believe I was kissing his feet.


wasN'T kissing his feet G

there are about ten other mistakes in my post but I wanted to clear this one
up :-)

"Larry L" wrote in message
...

"Willi" wrote

. This
year it would most likely be a caddis dry and a soft hackle dropper -
what I've used this year for 90% of my stream and river fishing. I
generally out fish this young man, not because I have the "right"
fly but because if I am not catching fish, I change how and where I am
presenting the flies instead of changing them.



Several things come to mind .... in no particular order

---
I doubt that I am as pattern oriented as my posts have made you believe
.... if I'm fishing to rising fish ( I'll drive 1000 to find em, went to
the local river today and couldn't work up enough interest to fish without
them ) I will assume my presentation is wrong, rather than my fly until I
have put several drifts over the fish that looked so good I really
expected a rise

---

Exception to above might be if the fish rises in a manner ( rise form )
that indicates my dry fly should be replaced with a damp one ... I'm a
visible fish addict not a dry fly addict

-----

I, too, believe that presentation far outweighs pattern in importance ...
simply because every fish demands a good presentation, only a few demand
the right fly ( same thing you said relative to selective being rare )

---

I fish for fun and honestly believe that most days I "could" increase my
catch by changing tactics/presentation. Catching is not the most fun part
of my day, most days. I don't mean to imply I believe I could fish
"with" you or other very skilled anglers, just that I very often
consciously decide to keep fishing a method I enjoy when I'm certain other
methods would produce better.

I once met a guy that recited "his numbers" for the last few days and they
were very impressive. I said, "I'm sorry about that." when he finished.
He asked, "Did YOU do better?" unable to believe I was kissing his feet.
"No, not even close. I'm just sorry that you haven't got better reasons
to fish than numbers."

-----

I enjoy the BS about identifying the bugs, seining the water and "matching
the hatch" FOR ITSELF, not just for it's hoped for increase in fish
landed. When a given VISIBLE fish eludes me I will cast without changing
flies until I feel I've shown him good presentations ... then I'll start
changing flies, trying to approach the change analytically not randomly.
I end up catching him more often than not ( although there is no way to
say it was pattern, I may have just finally gotten a good float )

----

the reverse is true, for me, about some tactics. Changing weight on the
leader to meet the requirements of a new slot being nymph fished is the
definition of tedious. If I rig a certain way and am "fishing the water"
there is no way I can conjure up enough enthusiasm to re-rig for new
conditions or to fish with concentration for more than a few minutes

----

Moving to a new area or new fish is generally the "right tactic" when the
current one proves difficult, to catch numbers. But, I almost never
move on if I can see him and he's a decent size for the water. I'm a
"one on one" angler and I don't give a damn if the fish right over there
would eat what/how I'm fishing .... I want THIS one G

----

One main reason I usually fish alone is that my measurements of "good day"
never seem to match those of other anglers. A couple hours of the
fishing I really like and a handful of fish caught is a wonderful day to
me. I have no desire to fish "all day" and when the numbers caught get
into the high teens or a big fish or two has been landed I feel I've
"limited out" for the day.

----

Days happen that were exceptions, but normally I have to SEE my fish to
enjoy trying to catch him. The fact that I therefore know I'm getting
refusals tips the scales towards "pattern" in my thoughts.

I have watched nymphers at say the San Juan stand in one spot and cast
over and over and over and over into the same slot. OBVIOUSLY they are
getting refusals but they don't seem to think of it that way. I often
wonder if they would keep flogging a riser that way.

There is something very different in the mindset that comes after weeks of
fishing to nothing but visible fish that I never experienced back when I
mainly fished small freestones in the Sierra. Mind you I make no claim
it is superior, just different. Even with arthritis that demands pain
pills every day, I'll walk a couple miles looking for fish I can see
without making a cast till I find him, and be content .... I'd be bored to
tears casting to "could be there" water for two miles.

----

Anyway I'm getting too far afield. Just suffice it to say that I'm
aware of most of the things I do wrong ( if numbers are the measure ),
don't think anybody else "should" have my attitudes, and still manage to
enjoy my fishing far more than back when I ALWAYS started with an Adams
and if they didn't eat it I'd switch places to fish.

----

HeHe Flashback !!

My first fly rod trout ate a #12 Adams just above Chittenden Bridge in the
Yellowstone River For years that was the only fly I had any real faith
in and I'd flail away with one forever assuming that any trout anywhere
would eat it and it had to be "drag" that was my problem.

A few years ago I went to Slough Creek and decided to tie some #12 Adams
just for that day. Just for the heck of it I wanted to catch a
Yellowstone Cutt like that first one fly rod fish with that same first
fly.

I had a banner day.

Later that week I chatted with John Jurachek and told him how much fun it
had been to go back to the "old pattern" and celebrate 35+ years fishing
in Yellowstone. He asked, " Do you know why that Adams worked so well?"
I said, "Oh yeah, the Gray Drakes were still around." John, "Yep, that's
it It won't work that well much longer this season on Slough Creek"

I like my fishing a whole lot better "thinking" I know why that first fish
in the Yellowstone ate that Adams ... I didn't have a clue then, but now I
know it was Gray Drake time and the guy at the fly shop in Jackson really
did know what was a good pattern to toss when he picked the adams for me.

----

One of the best things about fly fishing is it offers so much variation.
You love your style, I love mine. I bet you lean towards "mine" some
days. One of the first things you posted a few years, that I remember,
was a comment about "olives" really being more gray than olive ... in a
paragraph about how "color don't matter,. presentation do" .. the irony
was noticed, the powers of observation admired.

Some days I love to just swing a soft hackle, Nemes style, and never
consider bugs. I still love small freestones and always have a half
dozen small attractors with me, but my arthritis pain steals most of the
pleasure from the hike so I only do such places a couple times a season.

I stand in perpetual awe of people who know so much about why they fish the
way they do........or why they fish at all, for that matter.

Wolfgang
who, day by day, finds himself more and more inclined to simply accept (if
not understand) what mr. miller so aptly describes as "the mystery."

"Wolfgang" wrote

who, day by day, finds himself more and more inclined to simply accept (if
not understand) what mr. miller so aptly describes as "the mystery."


human beings seem to have unlimited abilities to make simple things complex

this is certainly true of fly fishing "technique" ... look at the huge
volume of printed material on this "hobby"

The physical/tecnique parts of the sport are easy to get carried away and
clatter the keys for hours about

--------
But other aspects are nearly impossible to do anything but hint at

-------

for me, fly fishing has appeals at the "deepest" levels I operate and "the
mystery" does aptly suggest those

I have often used the word "spiritual" to hint at the inner most reasons I
hunt ( fishing is hunting ) but always felt the word comes with too much
social baggage even if it is otherwise accurate "the mystery" is nice

Wolfgang wrote:

I stand in perpetual awe of people who know so much about why they fish the
way they do........or why they fish at all, for that matter.

Wolfgang
who, day by day, finds himself more and more inclined to simply accept (if
not understand) what mr. miller so aptly describes as "the mystery."



helll...i was simply regurgitating in homage the words and philosophy of
ol' h. middleton. ...but, i think you've got it nailed. well...sorta.


jeff

Larry L wrote:

Some interesting musings.

The things that capture my fishing attention seem to change over time.
Lately I've been most interested in new places and new species.


This Summer I futility attempted to catch a Grass Carp. There's a small
shallow pond about a mile from my place that has about a dozen Grass
Carp ranging from 10 to 30?+ pounds. Huge, handsome fish. Although some
people have reported some success with traditional flies, mine have been
totally ignored. They're plant eaters and I think it's tough to imitate
plants. I probably tried for them about a dozen times. I'm casting to
actively feeding fish but mostly they move to avoid my fly. A fly
falling too close to any one of the fish, sends it on a tear which in
turn blows up all the other carp. Fish that size freaking in water less
than two feet deep is pretty wild. Obviously that puts an end to the
fishing. Most sessions last about ten minutes.

Willi

"Willi" wrote

Carp.


there was a guy at hayspur last month that I got to talking with he is
doing the same sort of all summer fishing trips I have done the last few
years

one thing he does each summer is chase carp in a place not to be mentioned
here G it's an August deal ( nothing else happening ) and I'm planning
to give it a try with his help

one intriguing comment he made " you pretty much need an 8wt, at least a 7,
you don't have a prayer of controlling a big one with less"

I've tried to catch a few here locally on a flat of a local stream where I
have private access .... they are spooky devils ....I've never done the
bonefish thing but he does every year and compared it to that


oh, saw this today and thought of you g

http://tinyurl.com/2tk2ee

Larry L wrote:
"Willi" wrote


Carp.



there was a guy at hayspur last month that I got to talking with he is
doing the same sort of all summer fishing trips I have done the last few
years

one thing he does each summer is chase carp in a place not to be mentioned
here G it's an August deal ( nothing else happening ) and I'm planning
to give it a try with his help

one intriguing comment he made " you pretty much need an 8wt, at least a 7,
you don't have a prayer of controlling a big one with less"

I've tried to catch a few here locally on a flat of a local stream where I
have private access .... they are spooky devils ....I've never done the
bonefish thing but he does every year and compared it to that


Common Carp are MUCH easier than Grass Carp. There's a group of local
guys who are REALLY into Carp fishing. A couple of them have "flat"
boats rigged up with poling platforms etc. I've gone out with them a few
times this Summer and had a ball. One guy professionally guides people
on his boat and has developed some pretty unique patterns.

We have alot of small irrigation reservoirs locally that hold carp and
are generally clear. It is alot like Bonefishing except that you get
many more chances. You should like it, it's all sight fishing. Carp
have a wide range of different behaviors. I have no idea what most of
them are. Just because you see them in shallow water doesn't mean
they're feeding and if they're not feeding you're very unlikely to hook
one. Once I learned how to tell when they were feeding, my success went
way up. IMO, that's the key. Carp are very strong and have a couple good
runs in them. You need to control them on their first long run or you're
likely to lose them. Most don't have alot of stamina. When I first
started catching them, I found them gross, but now I consider them them
to be attractive fish.

Willi

On Oct 16, 11:12 pm, Willi wrote:
Larry L wrote:
"Willi" wrote

Carp.

there was a guy at hayspur last month that I got to talking with he is
doing the same sort of all summer fishing trips I have done the last few
years

one thing he does each summer is chase carp in a place not to be mentioned
here G it's an August deal ( nothing else happening ) and I'm planning
to give it a try with his help

one intriguing comment he made " you pretty much need an 8wt, at least a 7,
you don't have a prayer of controlling a big one with less"

I've tried to catch a few here locally on a flat of a local stream where I
have private access .... they are spooky devils ....I've never done the
bonefish thing but he does every year and compared it to that

Common Carp are MUCH easier than Grass Carp. There's a group of local
guys who are REALLY into Carp fishing. A couple of them have "flat"
boats rigged up with poling platforms etc. I've gone out with them a few
times this Summer and had a ball. One guy professionally guides people
on his boat and has developed some pretty unique patterns.

We have alot of small irrigation reservoirs locally that hold carp and
are generally clear. It is alot like Bonefishing except that you get
many more chances. You should like it, it's all sight fishing. Carp
have a wide range of different behaviors. I have no idea what most of
them are. Just because you see them in shallow water doesn't mean
they're feeding and if they're not feeding you're very unlikely to hook
one. Once I learned how to tell when they were feeding, my success went
way up. IMO, that's the key. Carp are very strong and have a couple good
runs in them. You need to control them on their first long run or you're
likely to lose them. Most don't have alot of stamina. When I first
started catching them, I found them gross, but now I consider them them
to be attractive fish.

Willi

I was fishing for panfish this summer and a huge carp took one of my
panfish flies. I have to admit that it was a thrill to battle and
land that fish. Once I had him landed, I was a bit numb with
shock.....it seemed like such a HUGE fish to take a tiny fly like
that.

mdk77 wrote:


I was fishing for panfish this summer and a huge carp took one of my
panfish flies. I have to admit that it was a thrill to battle and
land that fish. Once I had him landed, I was a bit numb with
shock.....it seemed like such a HUGE fish to take a tiny fly like
that.



Common Carp eat a wide range of things. Nymphs and crawfish are often
sought out. I commonly fish size 12 and 10 nymphs and soft hackles.

Other types of carp are another story. There are several different
species of carp that have inadvertently been released into our waters in
"recent" years. Like you probably know they are in Illinois rivers and
two of the species feed on zooplankton, the very bottom of the food
chain that all other fishes ultimately depend on. There is a major
concern that they'll make it into the Great Lakes.

Willi