Long tapered leaders

In article , Dave LaCourse
wrote:


Why do you want to go to 12' leaders, Tom.


On the one hand I think that this is the crucial question. there's a
pressure on us to fish longer leaders, or to cast longer lines, as
thought the whole business was some sort of competition. (which, imho,
it should be with the fish, but not with other people).

But the truth is often that the best line to cast is somewhere around
ten yards, and the best length of leader is often around nine feet.

On the other hand, I rarely actually measure my leader. I start with a
tapered cast one size above the tippet size I'm going to be using
(normally 3 lb), tie on a few feet of tippet, and when that's wrecked I
keep cutting and tying until the whole rig is clearly useless and I
have to start again.

I imagine that is roughly what a lot of us do.

On the other hand, I quite frequently find that I'm fishing a twelve or
fourteen foot cast ** not because I believe in it for any a priori
reason, but simply because it fishes better on the waters I'm on.

A lot of the time I'm on glassy, gin-clear chalk streams (spring
creeks) - in particular the Itchen, in Hampshire, england.

There, the one thing that will spell disaster is drag.

So what I'm actually seeking to do is have my tippet fall in a bit of a
bedraggle, that may unwind itself on the surface of the stream and give
just a few seconds for my fly to drift without drag over the lie where
my fish is feeding.

thus twelve to fourteen feet may give me a poor-looking cast, but may
also catch me a fish.

Lazarus

"Tom Nakashima" wrote in message
...
Has anyone had success turning over flies with long tapered
leaders?
Currently I'm using 4x 9' knotless tapered leaders with 18"
5x tippet material and been having good success turning over
18-16 size flies. I'm now planning to try 12' leaders with an 18"
5x tippet material. I'm thinking however the leaders don't
necessarily have to be knotless.
Any good formulas for 12' leaders for delicate presentation?
Keep in mind I do want to use 18" tippet material.
thanks,
-tom



Tom:

More of a lurker than a regular here, but I think you have two good answers.
LarryL says to add to the butt of your 9' leader. I regularly fish leaders
of 12' and this is very good advice.

Hand tied leaders turn over much better than tapered (knots act as power
transmitters), so start with 3' of big stuff, go to 12" of the next size
down, then go down in 6" increments until you get to the section just above
the tippet. Use 12-16" there, just so you won't have to change it so often
as you lose little bits changing tippets. A simple fix it to add 3' of the
next diameter of line above what you are using to the butt of your leader.

Lazarus says that the reason to fish longer leaders is to create a "clump"
of tippet to defeat drag. This is the real reason to fish longer leaders.
If you do not have to deal with complex drag patterns, go as short as you
can. If you do have to deal with these situations, go long, realizing that
it may not look pretty but it will work. BTW, make sure to cast far enough
upstream to let the "kinks" in the "clump" of the leader to work itself out
before passing over the strike area.

Tight lines,

Patrick

In article , PRM
wrote:

If you do have to deal with these situations, go long, realizing that
it may not look pretty but it will work. BTW, make sure to cast far enough
upstream to let the "kinks" in the "clump" of the leader to work itself out
before passing over the strike area.

Many years ago I had casting lessons from the Hardy professional, Andy
Murray. One of the things he taught me for dryfly upstream casting on
glassy water is to give your rod a good sideways wiggle as the line is
flying out. If you get the timing right on this it will lay your tippet
in a zig-zag pattern that will straighten as the stream pulls at it,
but will leave the fly un-dragged.

Lazarus

"Lazarus Cooke" wrote


Many years ago I had casting lessons from the Hardy professional, Andy
Murray. One of the things he taught me for dryfly upstream casting on
glassy water is to give your rod a good sideways wiggle as the line is
flying out. If you get the timing right on this it will lay your tippet
in a zig-zag pattern that will straighten as the stream pulls at it,
but will leave the fly un-dragged.



casting slack ... in the wiggle cast you mention, or various pile casts ...
is a key to difficult dry fly waters ( ones with complex currents over weeds
and such )



The ability to pile up the tippet to absorb some 'drag' greatly increases
success on some waters but like all this stuff we must practice ... try to
put the fly on the pie plate in the yard with lots of tippet slack .. then
without same. Add learning to throw curves around obstacles part way to
the plate and/ or at the end. It's possible to throw slack into the
middle of the line with the leader still turning over well also etc.

One cast I learned a few years back is useful if emerging weeds are between
you and the fish, but he is just inches on the other side. The weeds keep
the line/ leader from flowing downstream and if you cast normally ( turned
over leader ) drag is instant. Try forcing a cast HARD and fast right into
the weeds ... they will absorb the force keeping the 'spat' from scaring our
prey and the end of the tippet will travel a little farther, coming down
well after the line ( remember you cast like you were trying to bury the
line ) in a nasty pile just past the weeds ... viola, fish on ( learned this
on Hot Creek where such weeds are common and wading to get a better angle,
highly frowned upon )

This slack where it helps stuff is partly leader construction, but mainly
just 'bad casting' ... on purpose

On Feb 8, 6:07*pm, Lazarus Cooke
wrote:

[little snip]

On the other hand, I quite frequently find that I'm fishing a twelve or
fourteen foot cast ** not because I believe in it for any a priori
reason, but simply because it fishes better on the waters I'm on.

A lot of the time I'm on glassy, gin-clear chalk streams (spring
creeks) - in particular the Itchen, in Hampshire, england.

There, the one thing that will spell disaster is drag.

So what I'm actually seeking to do is have my tippet fall in a bit of a
bedraggle, that may unwind itself on the surface of the stream and give
just a few seconds for my fly to drift without drag over the lie where
my fish is feeding.

thus twelve to fourteen feet may give me a poor-looking cast, but may
also catch me a fish.

This thread has been interesting for me. The fish in my home
waters (mostly Guadalupe bass and sunfish) aren't particularly leader-
shy, so I'm usually more concerned with simply getting a leader to
turn the fly over.

When I visited western NC and the Smokies, I found that using a
short leader (less than rod length) worked best for dealing with the
overgrowth and tight quarters. When I met up with Wolfgang on an open
stretch of the Little River, he handed me a rod with about a 12'
leader (is that right, Wolfgang?) and told me to give that a try.

To my eyes, my casts looked horrible; the leader landed in a pile
each time. But, the fish seemed more than happy to jump all over the
fly. Due to the slack, I missed some fish (and even had one fish that
I had "missed" somehow wind up on the end of my line after I finally
got all the slack in). But I had better luck when I followed
Wolfgang's advice and lengthened the leader on my own rig and stopped
worrying about how "pretty" my casts were.

I still struggle when I've got a leader much longer than the rod,
but I've been playing around with it more ever since that trip, and
when conditions permit, I'll definitely fish a longer leader.


Chuck Vance (now if I could just learn to throw slack line on
purpose)

"Conan The Librarian" wrote


Chuck Vance (now if I could just learn to throw slack line on
purpose)


MY advice ( remember I concentrate on flat waters and 'tough' fish .. slack
casts are a hindrance in many situations, thus the mantra of 'turn over your
fly' ) is to start with a leader you like for the fly being cast ... I
won't detail what I usually use, except to say that a tippet ring is a
great help as it allows you to keep most of the leader uniform for weeks and
only change tippet size and length to suit the fly. Your furled leaders
should be fine, tweaked to a given fly.

This basic leader should, with YOUR casting stroke, 'turn over' the fly
involved when you cast a straight line ... only a little wiggle should be
in the leader at most.
Now throw some paper plates around your practice yard and try to hit them
with your fly ( gently :-) ... the fly may hop out of the hard plate but
it's the original landing that matters. After you hit one at mid
distance a few time, using exactly the same amount of line, try to land the
fly in a plate a foot or two closer to you.

Try aiming a little higher and using slightly less power, lower the rod as
the line falls .. viola, slack .... wiggle the rod tip as the line unfolds
.... slack .... try what would be a tuck cast if you were using a weighted
nymph .. put some plates between you and the target plate and try to snake
the line between them by flicking the rod tip to put bends into the line
..... cast your normal stroke and just as the line goes straight, pull back
slightly All these things ( and more ) will put slack into the line/
leader in different ways. First step it to observe the differences,
second is to start controling slack by the stoke you make.

Now the hard, ( and extremely fun ) part ... when you are on the stream look
before you cast ...decide IF and if so, WHERE slack is needed to fight drag,
BEFORE you cast. Your practice will provide strong clues as to how to
achieve what you need. Note: do not cast slack 'just because' have a
target and reason for that slack or cast normally ... most times, fishing
upstream in a freestone you probably won't cast slack ... much .. indeed
your task is to gather it up quickly as the fly comes back to you

If I could force my aging, habit ridden, and somewhat sluggish brain to do
one thing while fishing it would be to ... each and every single time ...
try and make my FIRST effort my BEST effort ... most anglers ( me too ) fail
in the places that have the reputation as difficult because they cast, see
that it didn't work, and maybe why, and THEN try harder ... respect your
prey more than that ... plan where the line, leader and fly will land ...
not just the fly ...


Tip: You do your best, chuck ( no pun ) it out there and put the fish down
anyway .... stay and recast until you master that lie even though he is long
gone ... you need the practice G

"Larry L" wrote

Tip: snip


another one ... you can often practice a cast before making it to great
advantage

visualize what the line, leader and fly will look like as they land

Now staying a couple feet too far away make the cast short of the fish until
you get it to look like that visualization ( note it may not drift right
becasue you are actually casting to a differnt part of the stream ) Now
make that extra step towards you prey and repeat that difficult combination
of curve, mend and pile ... smile widely when it works G

http://tinyurl.com/2orw9d

On the other hand, I quite frequently find that I'm fishing a twelve or
fourteen foot cast ** not because I believe in it for any a priori
reason, but simply because it fishes better on the waters I'm on.

A lot of the time I'm on glassy, gin-clear chalk streams (spring
creeks) - in particular the Itchen, in Hampshire, england.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

ok dude,

you just seriously piqued my interest with the Itchen thing. My last
name is Graves and so this is in my blood, otherwise, I wouldn't bother
with this post. I have a fascination with the spring creeks on occasion.
(Letort spring run, etc.) I frequent the Catskills mostly, and this
formula works great on the snooty fish there.

I actually had an invite to fish the Itchen once, but couldn't scrape
up the cash for airfare. Someday though....

I have tried the Orvis bradied leaders, they used to work very well,
They were popular in the 1980's. And they worked great, esp. in small
sizes to 7x, but they are a hassle to tie. The interval sections were
only 7", and if you messed this up, your accuracy suffered greatly. The
formula below is very mellow and forgiving.

this is George Harvey formula, from Pennsylvania USA. This guy is
(was?) an interesting fellow, teaches flyfishing at a State college.
The legendary Spring Creek runs through the campus. This leader
formula works really well, you can do an incredible "pile cast" with
it, and get oodles of slack. It has a 36" tippet!!!!! In the words of
legendary Michael Palin: "say no more!!!"

The downside is; you must use Maxima for the butt sections which is a
wonderfully limp material, not as strong compared to the new stuff,
but again, you only use it for the butt sections, you use the good
modern (clear) stuff for the tippet.

I use Orvis Super Strong for the tippet section. Never fails. *You do
have to learn how to properly join two sections of different
stiffnesses of materials together, which can be tricky.

Lately though, I've thought that maybe a surgeon's knot might work
better than a blood knot to join the stiffer tippet to the butt. The
interesting thing about this leader is the fact that the overall taper
is very gradual, as opposed to the standard thinking that you need a
very stiff, rapidly, descending butt section.

BTW, a compound leader will always turn over better than a one-piece,
but with a one-piece, you won't have the weedball problem on the knots.
I know this may be a common problem in spring creeks.

Contact Fly Fisherman Magazine (USA) for info on this article, it came
out maybe 8 years ago. maybe longer, can't remember...

Here's the formula. I swear this lays out the best I've ever seen, for
small stuff with no wind..... In the lenght you are looking for, this
will fit the bill.

Tight Lines, Tally Ho, etc.

George Harvey Leader formula:

4X 5X

.015--- 18-19" (MAX.) .015----- 18-19" (MAX.)
.013-----18" .013----- 18-19"
.011-----18" .011----- 18-19"
.009-----18" .009----- 18-19"
3X-------15"
3X-------15"
4X-------36" (!!!!!) (S.S.) 4X-------15"

5X-------36" (SS)
(!!!!!!)


Sir, your problems are now solved. you could probably go all the way
to 7x by continuing the 5x formula, but I would shorten the 6x interval
section to maybe 10-12" . S.S. stands for the final "Super Strong"
section, but use whatever tippet material you want. Again, just be
careful tying that last tippet joiner knot. You'll see what I mean....


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ugh, can't fugure out how to edit my post. Tom, try the above also. The
formula for the 5x to the right got moved too far left for the tippet.

5X:

015.... 18-19" (maxima)
013-----18-19" (maxima)
044-----18-19" (maxima)
009-----18-19" (maxima)
4X-------15" (super strong or whatever)
5X-------36" (super strong or whatever)

You can go to 6X by cutting down the 5X to 12"
You can go to 7X by cutting down the above 6X to 10-12"

Hope that helps to clarify. The 4X formula is fairly readable. Just
follow it down.


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rustyspinner wrote:
ugh, can't fugure out how to edit my post. Tom, try the above also. The
formula for the 5x to the right got moved too far left for the tippet.

5X:

.015.... 18-19" (maxima)
.013-----18-19" (maxima)
.044-----18-19" (maxima)
.009-----18-19" (maxima)
4X-------15" (super strong or whatever)
5X-------36" (super strong or whatever)

You can go to 6X by cutting down the 5X to 12"
You can go to 7X by cutting down the above 6X to 10-12"

Hope that helps to clarify. The 4X formula is fairly readable. Just
follow it down.



Man, you guys are really uptight about your leaders.

Was it you that wrote that knotted leaders turn over better than
knotless because the knots are "power transmitters," or something like that?

That's absurd. It's not physical. Makes no sense at all.

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