Fly Tie-ers

wrote:
Ken Fortenberry wrote:
...
See, Pogo,
when it comes to encouraging "undocu..." **** it, illegal aliens, most
US citizen-consumers are the ultimate source of encouragement of their
coming to the US. And here's the thing - there's nothing wrong with
that...

Spoken like a guy who wouldn't mind having a few off-the-books
employees himself. ;-)

So do you consider yourself the equivalent of a crack dealer ?

--
Ken Fortenberry

On Thu, 20 Mar 2008 07:32:13 -0500, Ken Fortenberry
wrote:

wrote:
Ken Fortenberry wrote:
...
See, Pogo,
when it comes to encouraging "undocu..." **** it, illegal aliens, most
US citizen-consumers are the ultimate source of encouragement of their
coming to the US. And here's the thing - there's nothing wrong with
that...

Spoken like a guy who wouldn't mind having a few off-the-books
employees himself. ;-)

I wouldn't mind it in the least. That doesn't mean or equate to my
wishing to be able to exploit them, though.

So do you consider yourself the equivalent of a crack dealer ?

If I hire them, and the standard of comparison is simply "breaking the
law," yes, because there is nothing even debatable in such a scenario.
Again, that doesn't mean I would consider myself the full equivalent of
a crack dealer, nor does it mean that _I_ consider them "equal" crimes.

HTH,
R

wrote:
Ken Fortenberry wrote:
Spoken like a guy who wouldn't mind having a few off-the-books
employees himself. ;-)

I wouldn't mind it in the least. That doesn't mean or equate to my
wishing to be able to exploit them, though.

Well that just doesn't make any sense. What kind of dimbulb
businessman would run the risk of large fines and possible
jail time unless he was planning to profit from a cheap labor
pool ? If you're *not* planning to exploit your illegals
you'd have to be an idiot to hire them in the first place.
And you're no idiot.

--
Ken Fortenberry

On Thu, 20 Mar 2008 13:36:15 GMT, Ken Fortenberry
wrote:

wrote:
Ken Fortenberry wrote:
Spoken like a guy who wouldn't mind having a few off-the-books
employees himself. ;-)

I wouldn't mind it in the least. That doesn't mean or equate to my
wishing to be able to exploit them, though.

Well that just doesn't make any sense. What kind of dimbulb
businessman would run the risk of large fines and possible
jail time unless he was planning to profit from a cheap labor
pool ?

You didn't ask whether I thought it prudent business to do so, only if I
wouldn't mind having a few "off-the-books" employees. Them being
illegal aliens is not material. Rather than pay an employee X USD, plus
all of the assorted costs, few of which practically benefit employee or
employer, it be cheaper to pay that employee - Mexican, US citizens, or
Norwegians - a flat, simple cash wage of X + 20% and be done with it.

If you're *not* planning to exploit your illegals
you'd have to be an idiot to hire them in the first place.

Well, in my observations, most illegals want to work, do work, and work
hard. Therefore, I'd rather have illegals - not because they are
illegals, but because they are hard workers who _want_ to work, treat
and pay them fairly, have them stick around and continue to do good work
- you know, sorta like normal human beings...

Exploiting them or any other employee, aside from the overall flat-out
wrongness of it, isn't nearly as good business as some might think.

And you're no idiot.

Well, I'll leave that misjudgment to my critics...I have no doubt
they'll get it wrong...

TC,
R

wrote:
Ken Fortenberry wrote:
... What kind of dimbulb
businessman would run the risk of large fines and possible
jail time unless he was planning to profit from a cheap labor
pool ?

You didn't ask whether I thought it prudent business to do so, only if I
wouldn't mind having a few "off-the-books" employees. Them being
illegal aliens is not material. Rather than pay an employee X USD, plus
all of the assorted costs, few of which practically benefit employee or
employer, it be cheaper to pay that employee - Mexican, US citizens, or
Norwegians - a flat, simple cash wage of X + 20% and be done with it.

Why do you hate America so much ?

If you're *not* planning to exploit your illegals
you'd have to be an idiot to hire them in the first place.

Well, in my observations, most illegals want to work, do work, and work
hard. Therefore, I'd rather have illegals - not because they are
illegals, but because they are hard workers who _want_ to work, treat
and pay them fairly, have them stick around and continue to do good work
- you know, sorta like normal human beings...

Uh huh. I get the impression that your notions, and those
of the other chiselers who would knowingly hire illegals,
about "treat and pay them fairly" aren't exactly consistent
with either our labor laws or common human decency.

--
Ken Fortenberry

Well someone has to do the jobs we don't want and the lazy american kids
no longer work when they turn 15 or 16 they now play video games, don't
leave the house and don't get any sort of job until they are out of
college, I am a proud American, but it is easy to see why other
countries think we are lazy and spoiled, myself included. By the way
when did all this politicly correct nonsense happen, at least we still
speak our minds here in North Jersey :dizzy:
/IMG


--
Dennis
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Dennis wrote:
Well someone has to do the jobs we don't want and the lazy american kids
no longer work when they turn 15 or 16 they now play video games, don't
leave the house and don't get any sort of job until they are out of
college, I am a proud American, but it is easy to see why other
countries think we are lazy and spoiled, myself included. By the way
when did all this politicly correct nonsense happen, at least we still
speak our minds here in North Jersey :dizzy:

It's hard to know to which "politically correct nonsense" you
are referring if you don't include at least a snippet of context
from a previous post. And whom do you believe is not speaking
their mind ?

As for :dizzy:, maybe it's something in your North Jersey water.

--
Ken Fortenberry

On 2008-03-22, Dennis wrote:

Well someone has to do the jobs we don't want and the lazy american kids
no longer work when they turn 15 or 16.......

This is pure nonsense. Do you realize carpenters are still making the same
wage they did 30 yrs ago, despite housing prices increasing ten-twentyfold?
Why? Illegal alien labor. The reason behind it is that our govt turns a
blind eye, nay, encourages it. The reason is simple. If you can't afford to
go offshore, let dirt cheap labor into the US with no oversight. It's been
going on for over 25 yrs, now. CA tried to reduce it (prop 187) and was
shot down by the feds. No, it's not by accident. It's by design. Anyone
that can't see it isn't looking.

nb

On Thu, 20 Mar 2008 16:43:19 GMT, Ken Fortenberry
wrote:

wrote:
Ken Fortenberry wrote:
... What kind of dimbulb
businessman would run the risk of large fines and possible
jail time unless he was planning to profit from a cheap labor
pool ?

You didn't ask whether I thought it prudent business to do so, only if I
wouldn't mind having a few "off-the-books" employees. Them being
illegal aliens is not material. Rather than pay an employee X USD, plus
all of the assorted costs, few of which practically benefit employee or
employer, it be cheaper to pay that employee - Mexican, US citizens, or
Norwegians - a flat, simple cash wage of X + 20% and be done with it.

Why do you hate America so much ?

If you're *not* planning to exploit your illegals
you'd have to be an idiot to hire them in the first place.

Well, in my observations, most illegals want to work, do work, and work
hard. Therefore, I'd rather have illegals - not because they are
illegals, but because they are hard workers who _want_ to work, treat
and pay them fairly, have them stick around and continue to do good work
- you know, sorta like normal human beings...

Uh huh. I get the impression that your notions, and those
of the other chiselers who would knowingly hire illegals,
about "treat and pay them fairly" aren't exactly consistent
with either our labor laws or common human decency.

I can't and won't speak for anyone and everyone who might hire, or has
hired, illegal workers. I'd agree that in any system where exploitation
of others is possible, be it the US or anywhere else, some will exploit
others. Heck, I'd exploit weakness in an equal - IOW, if you and I were
both business owners in competition and I could exploit a weakness of
yours, I'd do it (assuming it was legal and I felt it ethical). But for
me, exploiting (using solely the negative meaning/connotation of
"exploit") employees of any status simply isn't good business - again,
aside from the pure "wrongness" of it. IAC, I didn't offer opinions on
what others might do, I only stated my thoughts on what I'd want/do and
my reasons, directly addressing your asking me what _I'd_ wish to do.

TC,
R

wrote:
Ken Fortenberry wrote:
wrote:
Ken Fortenberry wrote:
... What kind of dimbulb
businessman would run the risk of large fines and possible
jail time unless he was planning to profit from a cheap labor
pool ?
You didn't ask whether I thought it prudent business to do so, only if I
wouldn't mind having a few "off-the-books" employees. Them being
illegal aliens is not material. Rather than pay an employee X USD, plus
all of the assorted costs, few of which practically benefit employee or
employer, it be cheaper to pay that employee - Mexican, US citizens, or
Norwegians - a flat, simple cash wage of X + 20% and be done with it.
Why do you hate America so much ?

If you're *not* planning to exploit your illegals
you'd have to be an idiot to hire them in the first place.
Well, in my observations, most illegals want to work, do work, and work
hard. Therefore, I'd rather have illegals - not because they are
illegals, but because they are hard workers who _want_ to work, treat
and pay them fairly, have them stick around and continue to do good work
- you know, sorta like normal human beings...
Uh huh. I get the impression that your notions, and those
of the other chiselers who would knowingly hire illegals,
about "treat and pay them fairly" aren't exactly consistent
with either our labor laws or common human decency.

I can't and won't speak for anyone and everyone who might hire, or has
hired, illegal workers. I'd agree that in any system where exploitation
of others is possible, be it the US or anywhere else, some will exploit
others. Heck, I'd exploit weakness in an equal - IOW, if you and I were
both business owners in competition and I could exploit a weakness of
yours, I'd do it (assuming it was legal and I felt it ethical). But for
me, exploiting (using solely the negative meaning/connotation of
"exploit") employees of any status simply isn't good business - again,
aside from the pure "wrongness" of it. IAC, I didn't offer opinions on
what others might do, I only stated my thoughts on what I'd want/do and
my reasons, directly addressing your asking me what _I'd_ wish to do.

OK, try this on for size. You hire an off-the-books illegal and
while on the job he falls off a ladder and breaks his leg. Do you:

A) Drive him to hospital, tell them send me the bills and pay him
80% salary until he comes back to work. In other words treat him
you know, sorta like a normal human being. Or:

B) Say, Damn that's tough luck pal, when you get to the emergency
room be sure to tell them you're unemployed and when you heal
up come back and I'll try to find some lawns for you to mow.

If it ain't A) you're not treating him fairly by my definition.

--
Ken Fortenberry