Fly Tie-ers

On 2008-03-24, rw wrote:

....even skilled construction or an array of other things.

In case you haven't noticed, housing prices have increased to the point of
unaffordable insanity, while construction labor pay is roughly the same as
it was 30 yrs ago or even lower. This is not by accident.

.....I'm not even counting drug transactions.

We don't even want to go there.

nb

notbob wrote:
On 2008-03-24, rw wrote:


....even skilled construction or an array of other things.


In case you haven't noticed, housing prices have increased to the point of
unaffordable insanity, while construction labor pay is roughly the same as
it was 30 yrs ago or even lower. This is not by accident.

I get ****ed off when I hear people say that illegal immigrants "are
only doing the jobs that Americans won't do." The reason that Americans
won't do these jobs is that the cheap labor pool of illegals has
depressed wages. This isn't true only in agriculture, but also in
skilled areas like construction.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

On 2008-03-24, rw wrote:

I get ****ed off when I hear people say that illegal immigrants "are
only doing the jobs that Americans won't do."

It's the standard lie put forth by dirtbag politicians, which pretty much
means all of them. It's the same lie for the H1B visa program, too, the one
that has gutted the high tech industry in this country.

nb

On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 10:19:23 -0600, rw
wrote:

notbob wrote:
On 2008-03-24, rw wrote:


....even skilled construction or an array of other things.


In case you haven't noticed, housing prices have increased to the point of
unaffordable insanity, while construction labor pay is roughly the same as
it was 30 yrs ago or even lower. This is not by accident.

I get ****ed off when I hear people say that illegal immigrants "are
only doing the jobs that Americans won't do." The reason that Americans
won't do these jobs is that the cheap labor pool of illegals has
depressed wages.

And if them damned illegals don't stop working for less than it takes to
survive and just dying on any ol' street corner that they happen to
starve on, we're gonna have a whole nuther problem - who we gonna get to
bury all these dead folks? I mean, if "Americans" don't wanna work for
what others do in construction, why the hell do you expect they are
gonna work to bury dead bodies when...HEY! wait a minute! Problem
solved! Ya can just go down to the Home Depot and get some of them
Norweg...well, ****...who is gonna bury all them starved Norwegians?
AHA! Chinks or ragheads or whatever them sumbitches on the customer
service lines are. There's lots them little SOBs running around and
maybe it can be outsourced offshore....

And think about it - give 'em jobs and maybe they won't all want to be
going around blowing up Starbuckses and Gaps and Abercrombie and
F...well, wait...on second thought, maybe that wouldn't be so bad... So
OK, they'll have jobs and ****, and before you know it, they'll be just
like normal Americans, with new cars and overpriced fishing gear and
plasma TVs and ToothRay DVD PodPhones and MP3 iPlayer GPSes and
Frappamochachin...um, well, so scratch the last one 'cause they blew up
all the Starbuckses, but they can still have Ralph Hillfigger
underdrawers showing above their Polo pants, 15 sizes too big, of
course, and put 28 inch wheels and 12 bizillion watt stereos on their
Mitsulexus SUVs and...

This isn't true only in agriculture, but also in
skilled areas like construction.

Spoken like two folks who have no _real_ knowledge of construction labor
costs, wages, or anything else related to the construction industry in
much of the country. I readily admit that I have no working knowledge
of the "industry" such as it might exist in Ketchum, Jr. or the mind of
little puppies who should stay on the porch...OTOH, I do have a fair
amount of knowledge regarding some of the major construction areas in US
and outside, and to claim that a construction laborer, skilled or
unskilled, is paid the same or less as they were in 1978 is simply
ridiculous.

R

rw wrote:

notbob wrote:

On 2008-03-24, rw wrote:


....even skilled construction or an array of other things.



In case you haven't noticed, housing prices have increased to the
point of
unaffordable insanity, while construction labor pay is roughly the
same as
it was 30 yrs ago or even lower. This is not by accident.


I get ****ed off when I hear people say that illegal immigrants "are
only doing the jobs that Americans won't do." The reason that Americans
won't do these jobs is that the cheap labor pool of illegals has
depressed wages. This isn't true only in agriculture, but also in
skilled areas like construction.


actually, hasn't the cost of doing business and the end-product pricing
caused many smaller scale employers, including farmers, to search for
ways to make ends meet...cheaper (not always illegal) labor is one
approach. depressed wages don't necessarily equal high profits,
chiseling employers, or even illegal immigrant employment practices.

also, in some occupations, there seems to be a real difference in the
individual worker's drive to do the work - quality of the employee.
roofing for example. awful and strenuous work. low wages for unskilled
labor. i know several roofing contractors. they pay the same wage, with
the same poor benefits, to their laborers - caucasian, african-american,
mexican. gradually, their work force became mexican. all are assumed
legal, but i doubt it's so. the wages are the same. the contractors
say there wasn't any wage saving...but, the other unskilled workers
simply weren't as "passionate" or dependable in doing the day's work.
speed in completing jobs became a problem, affecting the bottom line.
attrition ultimately led to an all mexican work force...hourly wages
stayed at the same scale, but the mexican workers were better on the job
and in meeting deadlines.

jeff miller wrote:
rw wrote:

notbob wrote:

On 2008-03-24, rw wrote:


....even skilled construction or an array of other things.




In case you haven't noticed, housing prices have increased to the
point of
unaffordable insanity, while construction labor pay is roughly the
same as
it was 30 yrs ago or even lower. This is not by accident.



I get ****ed off when I hear people say that illegal immigrants "are
only doing the jobs that Americans won't do." The reason that
Americans won't do these jobs is that the cheap labor pool of illegals
has depressed wages. This isn't true only in agriculture, but also in
skilled areas like construction.


actually, hasn't the cost of doing business and the end-product pricing
caused many smaller scale employers, including farmers, to search for
ways to make ends meet...cheaper (not always illegal) labor is one
approach. depressed wages don't necessarily equal high profits,
chiseling employers, or even illegal immigrant employment practices.

also, in some occupations, there seems to be a real difference in the
individual worker's drive to do the work - quality of the employee.
roofing for example. awful and strenuous work. low wages for unskilled
labor. i know several roofing contractors. they pay the same wage, with
the same poor benefits, to their laborers - caucasian, african-american,
mexican. gradually, their work force became mexican. all are assumed
legal, but i doubt it's so. the wages are the same. the contractors
say there wasn't any wage saving...but, the other unskilled workers
simply weren't as "passionate" or dependable in doing the day's work.
speed in completing jobs became a problem, affecting the bottom line.
attrition ultimately led to an all mexican work force...hourly wages
stayed at the same scale, but the mexican workers were better on the job
and in meeting deadlines.

I'm not saying that illegal workers are poor workers, or that employers
make more profit by using them. I'm merely saying something that is self
evident -- that the price of labor, like the price of everything, is
determined by supply and demand. An increase in the supply of labor
depresses wages.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 19:20:50 -0600, rw
wrote:

jeff miller wrote:
rw wrote:

notbob wrote:

On 2008-03-24, rw wrote:


....even skilled construction or an array of other things.




In case you haven't noticed, housing prices have increased to the
point of
unaffordable insanity, while construction labor pay is roughly the
same as
it was 30 yrs ago or even lower. This is not by accident.



I get ****ed off when I hear people say that illegal immigrants "are
only doing the jobs that Americans won't do." The reason that
Americans won't do these jobs is that the cheap labor pool of illegals
has depressed wages. This isn't true only in agriculture, but also in
skilled areas like construction.


actually, hasn't the cost of doing business and the end-product pricing
caused many smaller scale employers, including farmers, to search for
ways to make ends meet...cheaper (not always illegal) labor is one
approach. depressed wages don't necessarily equal high profits,
chiseling employers, or even illegal immigrant employment practices.

also, in some occupations, there seems to be a real difference in the
individual worker's drive to do the work - quality of the employee.
roofing for example. awful and strenuous work. low wages for unskilled
labor. i know several roofing contractors. they pay the same wage, with
the same poor benefits, to their laborers - caucasian, african-american,
mexican. gradually, their work force became mexican. all are assumed
legal, but i doubt it's so. the wages are the same. the contractors
say there wasn't any wage saving...but, the other unskilled workers
simply weren't as "passionate" or dependable in doing the day's work.
speed in completing jobs became a problem, affecting the bottom line.
attrition ultimately led to an all mexican work force...hourly wages
stayed at the same scale, but the mexican workers were better on the job
and in meeting deadlines.

I'm not saying that illegal workers are poor workers, or that employers
make more profit by using them. I'm merely saying something that is self
evident -- that the price of labor, like the price of everything, is
determined by supply and demand. An increase in the supply of labor
depresses wages.

An increase in the number of bodies potentially available to do labor
doesn't translate into an increase in the "supply of labor."

I'd offer that labor wages are more than adequate because if they
weren't, there would be no migration of supply from wherever to the US
to fill demand at market prices. IOW, if wages were actually low, it
would take incentives beyond the mere chance at a job to entice the
supply (the illegal aliens) to attempt to fill the demand (the jobs at
current wages). Couple that with the fact that "legal" workers cost an
employer considerably more than the cost of their wages, it isn't
surprising that employers are more than willing to employ illegal
workers for the simple wage cost, esp. when the illegal worker, just to
frost the cake, a better, more willing worker. Illegal aliens haven't
taken jobs from willing US citizens, lazy US workers who want rights
without responsibilities have ****ed away jobs to those who, well,
aren't and don't.

HTH,
R

wrote:
On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 19:20:50 -0600, rw
wrote:

I'm not saying that illegal workers are poor workers, or that employers
make more profit by using them. I'm merely saying something that is self
evident -- that the price of labor, like the price of everything, is
determined by supply and demand. An increase in the supply of labor
depresses wages.


An increase in the number of bodies potentially available to do labor
doesn't translate into an increase in the "supply of labor."

I'd offer that labor wages are more than adequate because if they
weren't, there would be no migration of supply from wherever to the US
to fill demand at market prices.

Wages are exactly where they "should" be given the supply of labor.
That's the way a market works. If the supply of labor decreased by the
estimated 12 million illegal immigrants and demand stayed constant, then
wages would increase, as inevitably as night follows day.

Funny, but I always imagined you to be a free-market type of person.
Guess I was wrong.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 20:41:12 -0600, rw
wrote:

wrote:
On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 19:20:50 -0600, rw
wrote:

I'm not saying that illegal workers are poor workers, or that employers
make more profit by using them. I'm merely saying something that is self
evident -- that the price of labor, like the price of everything, is
determined by supply and demand. An increase in the supply of labor
depresses wages.


An increase in the number of bodies potentially available to do labor
doesn't translate into an increase in the "supply of labor."

I'd offer that labor wages are more than adequate because if they
weren't, there would be no migration of supply from wherever to the US
to fill demand at market prices.

Wages are exactly where they "should" be given the supply of labor.
That's the way a market works. If the supply of labor decreased by the
estimated 12 million illegal immigrants and demand stayed constant, then
wages would increase, as inevitably as night follows day.

Funny, but I always imagined you to be a free-market type of person.
Guess I was wrong.

Actually, as I've said before, I'm one of the few, perhaps even the
only, actual liberals around ROFF. As such, I am largely a
"free-market" type of person in the general sense of the term, but since
the term is subject to, er, subjective interpretation, and I don't know
how you might interpret it, I have no idea if I am a "free-market type
of person" in your interpretation.

IAC, in a "free market" neither supply or demand is ever "where they
should be" in terms of an fixed amount - they are constantly in flux,
attempting to balance each other. Wages would be the same. There is no
"where things SHOULD be" in a "free" market.

Moreover, sure, if a large percentage of the supply were suddenly
removed from the market by external forces, particularly government
control, and demand stayed constant (which would be impossible as labor
costs would suppress demand), prices would rise until the supply
(illegals) increased. So, here's the scenario in your little passion
play: the government manages to instantly remove all 12 million
illegals and with little supply to satisfy the demand, _some_ buyers
(employers) are willing to pay sellers (employees) all sorts of green to
work, which some sellers actually do. However, most buyers say, "Screw
it. I can't pay $50USD an hour, plus bennies, to a bunch of lazy sots
whose production is much less than the guys I had because my buyers
won't pay the increase in costs for my supply." So the "supply" of
production (let's say houses and lettuce, to stay with the
construction/ag industries) drops while the price rises dramatically and
temporarily. Nobody is building or growing because the price is so high
there is little demand. But folks want houses and lettuce, and some
enterprising person manages to (guess which) a) find some locals who are
willing to work for "MUCH" less (like 10-20USD cash, no bennies), or, b)
some new illegals show up and work for "MUCH" less and suddenly demand
starts to pick back up as supply (at a price acceptable to the market)
begins to increase.

Now, based upon your guess above, do you further guess that:
a) the US suddenly has a "native" workforce willing to work for market
prices, or,
b) the US rapidly finds itself with 15 million illegals (because there
will always be more supply than demand in an expanding market) who are
perfectly willing to work for market wages...because "a)," above is a
friggin' fantasyland pipedream...

HTH,
R

And BTW, a similar governmental meddling in the overall petroleum
industry/market in the 90s led, at least in part, to the situation with
oil, gasoline, and fuel prices today...

rw wrote:


I'm not saying that illegal workers are poor workers, or that employers
make more profit by using them. I'm merely saying something that is self
evident -- that the price of labor, like the price of everything, is
determined by supply and demand. An increase in the supply of labor
depresses wages.


agreed...though among the unskilled labor pool here, i think some
employers have simply gone with the better and more reliable workers
without necessarily depressing the wage paid for that line of labor force.