OT .. Thanks Forty & Frank ...

"Kevin Vang" wrote

"Training your Retriever" by James Lamb Free is the classic in the
field (it says so right in the subtitle, after all.)

http://www.amazon.com/Training-Your-Retriever-James-
Lamb/dp/0399136207/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1208486691&sr=1-1



Gad, I read that when I got my first retriever ... it was chiseled into
rock, back then ...





I also highly recommend that you avoid anything by Richard Wolters like
the plague.



I knew Wolters and can testify that he couldn't teach a hungry dog to eat.
His animals were embarassing ( but heah, he made a fortune with books on
dogs ... makes ya wonder )




I'm nobody's expert on dog training, but I have had several Labradors in
my life. I would concentrate on basic civilization (sit, stay, come,
heel, etc.) and let everything else take care of itself. If you have a
Lab from decent bloodlines, you shouldn't have to do much of anything
to get it to find birds and retrieve to hand. Just get her out hunting
as often as possible, and by the end of her first season, she will know
more about finding pheasants than you ever will.


I'd basically agree with that ... you might have to do a little force fetch
work to get a good delivery

... when I get a new dog in to train, first I evaluate it ... if it won't
natually retrieve with enthusiam and/ or doesn't show plenty of birdiness
.... I send it packing ... in other words I only start training dogs that
naturally do what many hunters think a dog will be trained to do .... mom
and dad give pup the desire, training controls it to the point it's useful



Unless you want to get into the field trial game; then you'll have to
work a lot harder at training. I've never had any interest in trialing
myself.


the Field Trial game ( not Hunt Tests ) is an extremely challenging one,
NOT at all suited for the average guy and his Fido .... I still do 'basics'
for a few trial dogs, I did two this summer, for different people, both
people compete at the National level and are 'serious' enough that they have
bought large hunks of land and built acres of specially designed training
ponds just for their own use ... it's a very competitive and expensive game
( the most I've heard of a single trial dog changing hands for was
$250,000.00 ... and near $100K is fairly common ... not a typo ;-) ...
these people are serious about winning )

Hunt Tests, however, can be a fun activity for guys that are more interested
in dog work than the average, but not willing to spend extreme effort ...
"most" Fidos worth training to hunt can get HT titles if you put in the
hours ( but it's only worth it if both you and the dog enjoy those hours ..
it's not 'needed' to fill the freezer )

Larry L wrote:

"Kevin Vang" wrote


"Training your Retriever" by James Lamb Free is the classic in the
field (it says so right in the subtitle, after all.)

http://www.amazon.com/Training-Your-Retriever-James-
Lamb/dp/0399136207/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1208486691&sr=1-1




Gad, I read that when I got my first retriever ... it was chiseled into
rock, back then ...





I also highly recommend that you avoid anything by Richard Wolters like
the plague.




I knew Wolters and can testify that he couldn't teach a hungry dog to eat.
His animals were embarassing ( but heah, he made a fortune with books on
dogs ... makes ya wonder )





I'm nobody's expert on dog training, but I have had several Labradors in
my life. I would concentrate on basic civilization (sit, stay, come,
heel, etc.) and let everything else take care of itself. If you have a
Lab from decent bloodlines, you shouldn't have to do much of anything
to get it to find birds and retrieve to hand. Just get her out hunting
as often as possible, and by the end of her first season, she will know
more about finding pheasants than you ever will.



I'd basically agree with that ... you might have to do a little force fetch
work to get a good delivery

... when I get a new dog in to train, first I evaluate it ... if it won't
natually retrieve with enthusiam and/ or doesn't show plenty of birdiness
... I send it packing ... in other words I only start training dogs that
naturally do what many hunters think a dog will be trained to do .... mom
and dad give pup the desire, training controls it to the point it's useful




Unless you want to get into the field trial game; then you'll have to
work a lot harder at training. I've never had any interest in trialing
myself.



the Field Trial game ( not Hunt Tests ) is an extremely challenging one,
NOT at all suited for the average guy and his Fido .... I still do 'basics'
for a few trial dogs, I did two this summer, for different people, both
people compete at the National level and are 'serious' enough that they have
bought large hunks of land and built acres of specially designed training
ponds just for their own use ... it's a very competitive and expensive game
( the most I've heard of a single trial dog changing hands for was
$250,000.00 ... and near $100K is fairly common ... not a typo ;-) ...
these people are serious about winning )

Hunt Tests, however, can be a fun activity for guys that are more interested
in dog work than the average, but not willing to spend extreme effort ...
"most" Fidos worth training to hunt can get HT titles if you put in the
hours ( but it's only worth it if both you and the dog enjoy those hours ..
it's not 'needed' to fill the freezer )




at $1500 a puppy, what do you think that investment yields?

i must lack the genetic stuff that appreciates the huge dollars involved
in the "bloodline" commerce in dogs. my relationship with canines has
always been at the most basic and common level...essentially their
servant and (hopefully) friend. i've observed the intensity and
competitiveness of field trial and hunt training...always with electric
shock and shotgun salt. it was repulsive to me. i know folks that have
spent large dollars to acquire field trial and hunting dogs. each of
them has also owned a dog that was of the ordinary 150 to 300 dollar akc
variety. frankly, i saw nothing unique or more worthy in the more
expensive dog....

jeff

"jeff miller" wrote




at $1500 a puppy, what do you think that investment yields?


not sure I understand that question .... I have always told MY clients, and
believed myself, that unless the activity itself, the training, the time
spent outside, etc was enough .. don't even consider the sport fwiw,
there is no money to be made in trials, no prize money, .... the reason
some dogs sell for big bucks is simply dogs with that quality ( qualities
NOT obvious to casual observation ) are very rare ... as is talent that can
make the big leagues ( see below )




...always with electric
shock and shotgun salt. it was repulsive to me.

I can understand that. Let me say only this .. in the hands of skilled
trainers an e-collar is a wonderful tool that limits, yes limits, stress on
the dog. I worked a gun dog today, with it's owner issuing the commands.
At the end of the session that owner commented nellie had done well and that
I hadn't "used the collar" at all ... but I had, just so lightly the dog
showed no sign except changed behavior. BUT, there are a lot of pretty
crappy trainers in the world, and, frankly, "pro dog trainer" means zilch, I
know many I wouldn't let touch my dog, period. As for "shotgun training,"
repulses me too .. and fwiw, I've only met east coast trainers that use it,
never seen or heard of it out here

My favorite dog training quote is from Delmar Smith, " A man can learn to
control any animal, if he first learns to control himself."

i know folks that have
spent large dollars to acquire field trial and hunting dogs. each of them
has also owned a dog that was of the ordinary 150 to 300 dollar akc
variety. frankly, i saw nothing unique or more worthy in the more
expensive dog....


I don't think $$ is the key here ... I've seen 'ordinary' dogs achieve
greatness ... and therefore become valuable ... it is a myth that much value
comes with the pedigree, per se Field trials are like big league
baseball, hunt tests like playing on the company softball team, gundogs like
tossing a ball in the backyard with the family ... culture, and each of us,
values those 'ball players' differently, but only a fool would think the big
league guy is probably having the best life ... as in dog sports, the costs
of winning can often be higher than the value of that win.


FWIW, although I made a living for 30 years training trial dogs I do not and
never have suggest trials to anyone ... and I actively advise against most
field trial 'blood' for gun dog/pet owners

Larry L wrote:

"jeff miller" wrote



at $1500 a puppy, what do you think that investment yields?



not sure I understand that question .... I have always told MY clients, and
believed myself, that unless the activity itself, the training, the time
spent outside, etc was enough .. don't even consider the sport fwiw,
there is no money to be made in trials, no prize money, .... the reason
some dogs sell for big bucks is simply dogs with that quality ( qualities
NOT obvious to casual observation ) are very rare ... as is talent that can
make the big leagues ( see below )





...always with electric

shock and shotgun salt. it was repulsive to me.


I can understand that. Let me say only this .. in the hands of skilled
trainers an e-collar is a wonderful tool that limits, yes limits, stress on
the dog. I worked a gun dog today, with it's owner issuing the commands.
At the end of the session that owner commented nellie had done well and that
I hadn't "used the collar" at all ... but I had, just so lightly the dog
showed no sign except changed behavior. BUT, there are a lot of pretty
crappy trainers in the world, and, frankly, "pro dog trainer" means zilch, I
know many I wouldn't let touch my dog, period. As for "shotgun training,"
repulses me too .. and fwiw, I've only met east coast trainers that use it,
never seen or heard of it out here

My favorite dog training quote is from Delmar Smith, " A man can learn to
control any animal, if he first learns to control himself."

i know folks that have

spent large dollars to acquire field trial and hunting dogs. each of them
has also owned a dog that was of the ordinary 150 to 300 dollar akc
variety. frankly, i saw nothing unique or more worthy in the more
expensive dog....



I don't think $$ is the key here ... I've seen 'ordinary' dogs achieve
greatness ... and therefore become valuable ... it is a myth that much value
comes with the pedigree, per se Field trials are like big league
baseball, hunt tests like playing on the company softball team, gundogs like
tossing a ball in the backyard with the family ... culture, and each of us,
values those 'ball players' differently, but only a fool would think the big
league guy is probably having the best life ... as in dog sports, the costs
of winning can often be higher than the value of that win.


FWIW, although I made a living for 30 years training trial dogs I do not and
never have suggest trials to anyone ... and I actively advise against most
field trial 'blood' for gun dog/pet owners




well said larry.

didn't intend any of my comment to be critical of you or your efforts as
a trainer, just my observations of some things here in nc...and i've no
experience as a trainer. my dogs train me - a circumstance we both
approve of and accept.

i've seen dogs yelp and almost turn a flip from the electric collar
training...it troubled me a lot when i witnessed it. i've also seen the
wounds inflicted by the salt shots. i'm not a hunter, or a trainer, so
my sensitivity is probably out of the norm with regard to dog training
methods. still, it bothered me a lot.

my best friend owned two fabulous hunting dogs that he also
field-trialed. he was very tough with the dog...ear pinches, ear bites,
mean loud voice, electric collar (said he used the salt in shotgun
method, but i never saw him do it)... but, he genuinely loved the dog.
when the dog died, he cried. he still speaks reverently of smoke and
rush. it remains an oddity i can't reconcile. i can't imagine doing
anything intentionally that hurt my dog.

the $1500 comment was directed mainly at those who develop a commercial
venture in dogs dependent on field trial or hunting blood-lines and
those who buy them. a 250k or 100k dog is clearly a "different" breed,
as are their owners.

jeff (btw...despite my initial plans otherwise, i've succumbed to the
troutforce of montana yet again, and hope to be there july 11-18 this
year. if you'll be in the area of reynolds or west yellowstone, perhaps
we can share a meal if not a creek. i'll be camping somedamnwhere. the
slide inn has shifted focus and now caters to wealthy republicans. g)

"jeff miller" wrote

. i can't imagine doing
anything intentionally that hurt my dog.




As rdean would say, this might not help

but a true story that I get a kick out of

I got a call, and was asked, "Are you a dog trainer?"

"Yes, what can I do for you?"

"Well my yellow Lab climbs up on the counter when ever I'm cooking and eats
all our food. She just ruined a whole roast. How can I stop her?"

Me, "That is not at all my type of training but I can offer some simple
advice. When she climbs up there, say 'no' very firmly and do something
that she finds very unpleasant, swat her butt HARD, for instance. At this
point it has to be more unpleasant than the food is pleasant."

The female caller, tone indignant, "I could NEVER do anything to hurt my dog
!!"


Me, again, " Well, in that case I suggest you put the food on the floor and
save her the trouble of all that climbing."

Click .. somehow we were cut off .. surely she didn't hang up on me after I
gave her such sensible, and honest, advice ? G

Larry L wrote:
"jeff miller" wrote

. i can't imagine doing

anything intentionally that hurt my dog.





As rdean would say, this might not help

but a true story that I get a kick out of

I got a call, and was asked, "Are you a dog trainer?"

"Yes, what can I do for you?"

"Well my yellow Lab climbs up on the counter when ever I'm cooking and eats
all our food. She just ruined a whole roast. How can I stop her?"

Me, "That is not at all my type of training but I can offer some simple
advice. When she climbs up there, say 'no' very firmly and do something
that she finds very unpleasant, swat her butt HARD, for instance. At this
point it has to be more unpleasant than the food is pleasant."

The female caller, tone indignant, "I could NEVER do anything to hurt my dog
!!"


Me, again, " Well, in that case I suggest you put the food on the floor and
save her the trouble of all that climbing."

Click .. somehow we were cut off .. surely she didn't hang up on me after I
gave her such sensible, and honest, advice ? G



Great story.

Some people have this dog worship thing. It drives me nuts.

In my experience, dogs need to know the rules -- the reasonable rules.
Once they know them, they'll obey them. They are creatures of habit.
They need structure. It's the owners job to give them that predictable
structure. Then they'll be happy and well mannered.

I used a training collar for the first time this spring, on my
girlfriend's dog, a totally (to that point) unmanageable Anatolian
Sheperd Winnemucca Pound Pup. The dog was impossible. Whenever he saw
cows or elk, off he'd go on a wild and illegal and dangerous romp.

The training collar (i.e. shock collar) was a one-time fix for a solid
come/stay. It was like magic.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

rw wrote:

Larry L wrote:

"jeff miller" wrote

. i can't imagine doing

anything intentionally that hurt my dog.





As rdean would say, this might not help

but a true story that I get a kick out of

I got a call, and was asked, "Are you a dog trainer?"

"Yes, what can I do for you?"

"Well my yellow Lab climbs up on the counter when ever I'm cooking and
eats all our food. She just ruined a whole roast. How can I stop her?"

Me, "That is not at all my type of training but I can offer some
simple advice. When she climbs up there, say 'no' very firmly and
do something that she finds very unpleasant, swat her butt HARD, for
instance. At this point it has to be more unpleasant than the food
is pleasant."

The female caller, tone indignant, "I could NEVER do anything to hurt
my dog !!"


Me, again, " Well, in that case I suggest you put the food on the
floor and save her the trouble of all that climbing."

Click .. somehow we were cut off .. surely she didn't hang up on me
after I gave her such sensible, and honest, advice ? G


Great story.

Some people have this dog worship thing. It drives me nuts.

In my experience, dogs need to know the rules -- the reasonable rules.
Once they know them, they'll obey them. They are creatures of habit.
They need structure. It's the owners job to give them that predictable
structure. Then they'll be happy and well mannered.

I used a training collar for the first time this spring, on my
girlfriend's dog, a totally (to that point) unmanageable Anatolian
Sheperd Winnemucca Pound Pup. The dog was impossible. Whenever he saw
cows or elk, off he'd go on a wild and illegal and dangerous romp.

The training collar (i.e. shock collar) was a one-time fix for a solid
come/stay. It was like magic.


shock on...no doubt, infliction of physical pain can be a great teacher
and molder of behavior and thought (and not just in dogs)...simply not
my approach. ... i do note the "invisible fence" business is thriving
in these parts though.

jeff

"rw" wrote in message
m...
Great story.

Some people have this dog worship thing. It drives me nuts.

In my experience, dogs need to know the rules -- the reasonable rules.
Once they know them, they'll obey them. They are creatures of habit. They
need structure. It's the owners job to give them that predictable
structure. Then they'll be happy and well mannered.
I used a training collar for the first time this spring, on my
girlfriend's dog, a totally (to that point) unmanageable Anatolian Sheperd
Winnemucca Pound Pup. The dog was impossible. Whenever he saw cows or elk,
off he'd go on a wild and illegal and dangerous romp.

The training collar (i.e. shock collar) was a one-time fix for a solid
come/stay. It was like magic.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

The best training that I have personally experienced was with the Lenoir
Police Departments K9 Training Unit. They put on a Civilians K9 Training
course once a year. The course is designed for discipline purposes only--no
attack training.

When I first brought Bear home to mother--after I had to putdown
Beau-re-Guard, the love of mine and mother's lives for over 12 years--Bear
would run from me every time I call him to me. He would bolt after deer,
when we took our hikes on the mountain. The LPD trained me to become the
alpha male and now if Bear sees a deer on the property, he bolts, I holler
"Bear Come" and he stops looks at me, looks back at where the deer had been
a split second ago and then he bounds back to me.

No shock collar were used in training, just a light tug on a choke collar
was employed. I worked with Bear for the eight weeks of training, but he
came around within the third week. It was a simple matter of taking him on
walks or around the back yard 15 minutes a day.

Bear has become my go to fishin' buddy and will accompany Mr. Jeff Miller
and I this year on our annual NC fishin' get together. As a matter of fact,
Bear and I are going fishing in about an hour from now.

I have posted some pics, over at ABPF, of Bear and I from last June on Upper
Creek. He only leaves my side during breaks and when he can't negotiate the
path I have chosen up stream. Otherwise he is either by my side or right
behind me at all times. Bear is a one hundred and fifteen pounds of joy and
enthusiasm.

Op

Larry L wrote:
"jeff miller" wrote

. i can't imagine doing

anything intentionally that hurt my dog.





As rdean would say, this might not help

but a true story that I get a kick out of

I got a call, and was asked, "Are you a dog trainer?"

"Yes, what can I do for you?"

"Well my yellow Lab climbs up on the counter when ever I'm cooking and eats
all our food. She just ruined a whole roast. How can I stop her?"

Me, "That is not at all my type of training but I can offer some simple
advice. When she climbs up there, say 'no' very firmly and do something
that she finds very unpleasant, swat her butt HARD, for instance. At this
point it has to be more unpleasant than the food is pleasant."

The female caller, tone indignant, "I could NEVER do anything to hurt my dog
!!"


Me, again, " Well, in that case I suggest you put the food on the floor and
save her the trouble of all that climbing."

Click .. somehow we were cut off .. surely she didn't hang up on me after I
gave her such sensible, and honest, advice ? G



the loud voice thing has always worked for me... but, no hang up here. i
don't think the butt swat routine on an isolated or single purpose basis
is the same as the ECs or salt shot, butt g rachel and i aren't
trainers or very good parents. sadie is spoiled but the most lovable dog
i've ever been owned by.

jeff

"jeff miller" wrote

the loud voice thing has always worked for me... but, no hang up here. i
don't think the butt swat routine on an isolated or single purpose basis
is the same as the ECs or salt shot, butt g



FWIW, dog training is nearly impossible to discuss ( past theory and the
simplest techniques and tasks ) without everyone involved actually watching
the specific situation under discussion ... specific dog, specific task,
specific set of circumstances ( wind, water, distractions, time of day ) and
knowing that animal's nature and background on those issues.

Even then the language of training is so imprecise that I once saw
certifiably the two best retriever trainers of history ( Carr and Lardy )
'arguing' a point about a particular situation. From the outside, however,
it was clear they were saying the same thing, just using the words
differently ( someday training with have a technical language like other
complex tasks, but not for now )

I'm no genius but I've done and tried a variety of challenges in my life,
like we all have. Training ( to field trial standard ) is the single most
challenging of those things ... I spent years in 'apprenticeship' AFTER I
had already been working as a full time trainer for several years to learn
the craft and only after years of serious study with a master did I start to
understand how little I had known back when I "knew it all" ... this is NOT
"fall off the log simple" stuff when you get to very high standards and
unnatural demands.

I once asked my mentor, Rex Carr, why he hadn't written a book. He
pointed to a dog, one that had just worked through a complicated and
difficult learning situation ... a situation that would have appeared
mundane to casual observation ...but that had required brilliance on Rex's
part to successfully negotiate. He pointed ... and asked, " Can YOU
describe, in words, what just happened here with him?" I thought hard,
"No." Rex, "Me neither."

So, using the words I use
..... "training" starts when the dog honestly knows what I want but isn't
doing it
.... "teaching" comes long before training and "teaching" is the sole topic
covered in most books. "Teaching" is, and should be, the major focus, and
it must always be done very thoroughly using different methods ( as a
teacher of humans explains the same thing in multiple ways to cement
concept, not just rote regurgitation )
.... if in ANY doubt
..teach more, and assume that is what is needed,
BUT,

It is pure fallacy to think that because Fido knows what you want, he will
do it ... Walt Disney thinking, I call it. Sure, up to a point this
appears the case, Fido chooses the mild pleasantness of your approval and
avoiding the mild unpleasantness of your 'loud voice' over what nature
would, otherwise, have him doing. But that tip-over point is reached very
soon when you are dealing with very high powered dogs and very unnatural
tasks.




"Training," as I use it, clearly implies conflict
... you want something he doesn't
... and, thus, "pressure" will come into the equation, as will the
relationship between that particular pair of animals, trainer and dog.




"Pressure" in training isn't a euphemism so much as an all inclusive term
for everything from physically pushing pups little butt to the ground while
you say "sit' because THIS time that distraction over there is more
important then you, to 'extreme' measures when Fido simply refuses to take a
cast off a scented point and into the cold water and wind on a particular
day, even though his schooling is clearly up to the task.


"Pressure" also applies to all the physical, ... ah, pressures .. we put on
Fido in the teaching parts of our work ... it's silly to think Fido 'likes'
a light tug with a choke collar, it's 'painful' and your loud voice
scares him, no?


When using various pressures ... what "it takes" varies
....... largely it depends on how un-natural what you want from the dog is
and
your relationship with the dog ..... Marks' 'alpha male' thing ..ah,
sortaG





"Pressure" is used constantly when working dogs ... or just hinted at by
many people ( it's usually best to not threaten, just do and clear the
air, but human nature is the biggest obstacle to training .. )




BUT, "Punishment" is something rare in quality dog training ... and the
best trainers never "punish" for task, per se.




----------------------------
-----------------------------

This is getting too long, and I'm beginning to see how impossible the job of
really communicating on this topic, via this media, is ... so,
leaving out reams
----------------------------------------------
------------------------------------



IF YOU WANT TO MINIMIZE THE TOTAL AMOUNT OF PRESSURE PUT ON YOUR DOG ...
over his lifetime,
and ,
STILL obtain very high standards on very unnatural tasks


Use the MINIMUM pressure that will change behavior in all your "teaching"
( and let's not lie about the teaching, we make Fido uncomfortable when we
push him back down into a sit position or whatever ... Fido only really
understands the physical until we condition sounds and signals to that
physical, via "teaching" )

On the very rare, but nonetheless very real, occasions when Fido does know
exactly what you want but simply refuses ( ASIDE: most dogs this actually
happens roughly once a year, and it is my belief that it is a natural carry
over of the young wolf testing the 'alpha' to see if the old man still has
what it takes to lead )
..... apply the most pressure the dog can survive ( emotionally )

The combination of those two will avoid nagging ... the biggest accumulative
unpleasantness in most dog's interaction with humans.






Jeff, you mention the repulsive things you've seen in the name of training.
I'm positive I've done and do, things you'd put in that category ... some
were, indeed, repulsive,
.... way back when when I "knew everything about training"
....but the ones now are in the second mode above.




I will now take a minute to explain ( imho ) why the e-collar gets such a
bad rap in circles slightly interested in dog training ... ie. most of the
culture

Marvin gets a book and starts teaching Fido .... let's say hand signals, to
keep in my realm ... teaching, show and tell, mild pressure that people are
acclimated to. Things go well, and Fido is 'handling' and responding
better than 90% of the dogs around. Marvin gets compliments and his ego
gets attached to Fido's work.



Then Marvin tries to advance to more unnatural levels of the tasks ... or,
Fido decides it's time to test Marvin's status as head dog .... and the
struggle begins.

Marvin repeatedly tries his loudest voice and 'acceptable' pressures ( nags,
and, ah, nags ) to no avail, indeed things seem to get worse ( they are ).

In desperation ( nearly always when Mr Joe Average Merican first thinks
that,
maybe, just maybe, he doesn't really understand training ) he visits a
"pro."

The pro ( if he's even decent ) checks out Fido's teaching level, and
relationship with Marvin but quickly sees what is happening. He applies
very large amounts of pressure ( certainly by Marvin's standards ) to Fido
and the beast nearly instantly 'salutes' and says "yes sir, Mr Marvin" and
the task in question appears greatly improved
( please note it's NOT 'the task" that the trainer improved, it's Fido's
attitude .. if Fido didn't know how to do it, no pressure could possibly
make him improve ... without more teaching ......... and teaching NEVER
produces instant results )




Marvin is somewhat repulsed at what has happened to his dog but thrilled at
the result. He trots home and begins even more complicated tasks, ones
FIDO is NOT taught adequately. Fido, of course, fails.

Marvin ( and as an important aside ... the " I love my doggie, whole
bunches" types are ALWAYS the ones that become the most vicious in this
progression ) reflects on how tons of pressure "seemed" to work last time
and puts tons on Fido again.

But,
This time Fido is NOT arguing, he's undereducated and confused.

and he'll respond very negatively to the heavy pressure
.... all sorts of very ugly things can happen.



BUT Marvin will "act Republican" and "stay the course" applying
more and more pressure to more and more inappropriate situations, thus
CAUSING more and more situations he'll view as requiring pressure. Marvin
has seen "a magic fix" and honestly believes it was the tool that was the
magic, not the dog knowledge of the tool's user.



Marvin travels far and wide, nearly torturing Fido. But Fidos ( all of
em ) are tough and he learns to bear it ( much as he used to just cow,
uncertain and scared when Marvin erupted in loud noises over things not
understood ) and makes some progress
......( FAR less than he would have if Marvin had gone back to teaching mode
and realized that WELL OVER 95% of the 'mistakes' dogs make ... even older,
very experienced dogs ... are 'didn't understand' issues NOT "**** you"
issues )
.... and Marvin soon becomes the 'expert' (if not pro ) in the eyes of
beginners and soon he starts another 'dog lover' on the path down this
spiral.

I tell my clients, because I've been there, done that, myself. You will
go through three stages as a trainer.
1) You won't know anything, suffer, toss and turn at night and try to find
news ways to explain yourself to the dog .. when it doesn't go well ... you
blame, you.
2) You will "know it all" and all the techniques and all the tools .
3) Stage three is similar to stage one ... you respect the weakness of your
knowledge enough to remain very flexible, very patient and to ALWAYS look
long and hard in the mirror before blaming Fido for anything ... anything


in stages 1 and 3 most people and their dogs do well .... many people are
disgusting in stage two, and many dogs ruined ..


Jeff, I've gone to all this typing NOT to argue, or because I think you want
ti read it
.... only because I want to help you, maybe, understand your 'repulsive, dog
loving' friend
.... likely, either he's stuck in phase 2
.....or what you are calling repulsive was actually, long term, the best way
to limit pressure on the dog
.... from the actions you describe, I'd guess phase 2.

The saddest things about field trials are (a) people, the majority, that
never get past 2 and (b) MOST dogs simply can NOT, regardless, achieve FT
level work, but rather than get a new dog with Big League talent, or be
content to toss a ball in the backyard, people keep trying to make Fido into
what he can never be (btw, this explains why most people 'unimpressed by "FT
dogs" ... the specimens they are seeing aren't impressive ... trust me,
the real deal brings tears to my eyes even after 40 years
..... but, maybe, he lucks into 'good enough' work often enough to keep the
people fooled, poor thing. FWIW, My guess, based on 38+ plus years, is
that starting with the best, most likely, blood available and given skilled
and patient training ( it takes Guide Dogs for the Blind 4 months to train a
dog ... roughly 4 years to make a competitive Open dog ) ... LESS than 3%
of Labs and a lot less of the other retriever breeds really have the right
stuff for the game ... surprising? why? what % of our kids have Big League
talent?


----------------------
--------------------

In the doubtful case you waded through all this this far,
sorry to bore
but, gad, a little more

--------------------------
-------------------------

Story:

I was working with Rex and had been a couple years. It was National time
and that year it was on the West Coast so all of his clients with qualified
dogs where visiting.

His normal, paid, help was sick and he called and asked if I'd come shoot
for him. At lunch time on the third day, he realized I hadn't worked any
of "my" ( I had been pro for years ) dogs in days. He had a magnum water
blind set up for those National qualifiers ( only the best 90 in the nation,
or so, any given year, qualify ) and feeling sorry for me said, "Get Samson
and run that blind." Samson was a high quality but young dog.

I put Rex's e-collar on Samson and left, as I always did at that stage in my
learning, the transmitter by Rex for his control.

I started trying to do this blind with my dog ( really was, I owned him )
and things went very badly. Sammy 'wouldn't' sit, 'wouldn't' cast ..
'wouldn't' nearly everything on this hyper-difficult test. I looked over
and Rex appeared totally absorbed in chatting with clients from all over the
country, trading gossip. I felt totally frustrated. Had I had that
transmitter, Sammy would have felt my frustration, not that I'm proud to say
that.

Finally, I started mumbling to 'myself' when Sam would make an error, "You
****ing asshole" or similar. The second mumble, Rex, who I thought was
oblivious to me and my difficulties, got out of his chair, walked to me and
poked his finger in my chest with enough obvious fierceness I honestly
thought he was going to hit me and backed away. He said, very firmly, and
in front of many of my heros, "I don't EVER want to hear you swear at a dog
again. The ONLY thing you have to be mad about is that fact that YOU have
not trained this dog well enough to do this test."

I spent a hour or so wanting to run and hide that afternoon, then realized
he had been 100% correct

... it was THE single, most generous, most
meaningful and most, yes, loving, thing that wonderful man ever did for me.

I honestly can't remember being mad at a dog, it's been so long. I often
pretend to be since they respond to that acting, but if I were to actually
get mad, I'd put the dog up .... period. Feel free, if you wish, to share
my story with your friend ... it was the first moment I glimpsed 'stage 3'
and I'll always be grateful for that chewing out.


-------------------

sorry for all this, must be important to me

... EOT for me


... yes I hear the sigh of relief