OT .. Thanks Forty & Frank ...

Charlie Choc wrote:

On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 09:31:10 -0400, jeff miller
wrote:


i'm flying in to salt lake city, renting a tiny car, and driving up.
any suggestions about the route based on your experience?


I would suggest I-80 to Rock Springs, then up US 191 either all the way to
Jackson and up through Grand Teton, or get off 191 at Farson and up through
Lander and Dubois. Both routes will take you through some nice scenery, the
route through Dubois being prettier but also longer. The fastest and shortest
way is up I-15 to Idaho Falls and from there to West Yellowstone.


thanks...how many hours does it usually take you to get up to west
yellowstone or raynolds??

jeff

On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 12:13:52 -0400, jeff miller
wrote:

thanks...how many hours does it usually take you to get up to west
yellowstone or raynolds??

From where? It's probably 3 hours from Jackson going through the park(s).
--
Charlie...
http://www.chocphoto.com

jeff miller wrote:

i have no idea what we did to or for sadie, our mainly golden, but dash
of other breeds, stray.

Sadie doesn't sound like a good candidate for a shock collar, to say the
least.

This Anatolian Shepherd was something else, man. I think it's a breed
thing. They're bred to protect (not herd) sheep and to work
independently. What Hank wants to do is, as far as I can tell,
characteristic of the breed: He gets up on high ground and searches in
the far distance for anything moving, and if he sees something he wants
to take off after it. This has led to some crazy chases.

It was either the shock collar or back to the pound for Hank. His
instinctive behavior is probably what put him in the pound in the first
place, because he's otherwise a well behaved dog.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

Charlie Choc wrote:

On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 12:13:52 -0400, jeff miller
wrote:


thanks...how many hours does it usually take you to get up to west
yellowstone or raynolds??


From where? It's probably 3 hours from Jackson going through the park(s).

salt lake...

On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 13:31:58 -0400, jeff miller wrote:

Charlie Choc wrote:

On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 12:13:52 -0400, jeff miller
wrote:


thanks...how many hours does it usually take you to get up to west
yellowstone or raynolds??


From where? It's probably 3 hours from Jackson going through the park(s).

salt lake...

I don't go that way, but I'd guess about 5 hours going up through Idaho, maybe
8+ taking the scenic route.
--
Charlie...
http://www.chocphoto.com

"jeff miller" wrote

the loud voice thing has always worked for me... but, no hang up here. i
don't think the butt swat routine on an isolated or single purpose basis
is the same as the ECs or salt shot, butt g



FWIW, dog training is nearly impossible to discuss ( past theory and the
simplest techniques and tasks ) without everyone involved actually watching
the specific situation under discussion ... specific dog, specific task,
specific set of circumstances ( wind, water, distractions, time of day ) and
knowing that animal's nature and background on those issues.

Even then the language of training is so imprecise that I once saw
certifiably the two best retriever trainers of history ( Carr and Lardy )
'arguing' a point about a particular situation. From the outside, however,
it was clear they were saying the same thing, just using the words
differently ( someday training with have a technical language like other
complex tasks, but not for now )

I'm no genius but I've done and tried a variety of challenges in my life,
like we all have. Training ( to field trial standard ) is the single most
challenging of those things ... I spent years in 'apprenticeship' AFTER I
had already been working as a full time trainer for several years to learn
the craft and only after years of serious study with a master did I start to
understand how little I had known back when I "knew it all" ... this is NOT
"fall off the log simple" stuff when you get to very high standards and
unnatural demands.

I once asked my mentor, Rex Carr, why he hadn't written a book. He
pointed to a dog, one that had just worked through a complicated and
difficult learning situation ... a situation that would have appeared
mundane to casual observation ...but that had required brilliance on Rex's
part to successfully negotiate. He pointed ... and asked, " Can YOU
describe, in words, what just happened here with him?" I thought hard,
"No." Rex, "Me neither."

So, using the words I use
..... "training" starts when the dog honestly knows what I want but isn't
doing it
.... "teaching" comes long before training and "teaching" is the sole topic
covered in most books. "Teaching" is, and should be, the major focus, and
it must always be done very thoroughly using different methods ( as a
teacher of humans explains the same thing in multiple ways to cement
concept, not just rote regurgitation )
.... if in ANY doubt
..teach more, and assume that is what is needed,
BUT,

It is pure fallacy to think that because Fido knows what you want, he will
do it ... Walt Disney thinking, I call it. Sure, up to a point this
appears the case, Fido chooses the mild pleasantness of your approval and
avoiding the mild unpleasantness of your 'loud voice' over what nature
would, otherwise, have him doing. But that tip-over point is reached very
soon when you are dealing with very high powered dogs and very unnatural
tasks.




"Training," as I use it, clearly implies conflict
... you want something he doesn't
... and, thus, "pressure" will come into the equation, as will the
relationship between that particular pair of animals, trainer and dog.




"Pressure" in training isn't a euphemism so much as an all inclusive term
for everything from physically pushing pups little butt to the ground while
you say "sit' because THIS time that distraction over there is more
important then you, to 'extreme' measures when Fido simply refuses to take a
cast off a scented point and into the cold water and wind on a particular
day, even though his schooling is clearly up to the task.


"Pressure" also applies to all the physical, ... ah, pressures .. we put on
Fido in the teaching parts of our work ... it's silly to think Fido 'likes'
a light tug with a choke collar, it's 'painful' and your loud voice
scares him, no?


When using various pressures ... what "it takes" varies
....... largely it depends on how un-natural what you want from the dog is
and
your relationship with the dog ..... Marks' 'alpha male' thing ..ah,
sortaG





"Pressure" is used constantly when working dogs ... or just hinted at by
many people ( it's usually best to not threaten, just do and clear the
air, but human nature is the biggest obstacle to training .. )




BUT, "Punishment" is something rare in quality dog training ... and the
best trainers never "punish" for task, per se.




----------------------------
-----------------------------

This is getting too long, and I'm beginning to see how impossible the job of
really communicating on this topic, via this media, is ... so,
leaving out reams
----------------------------------------------
------------------------------------



IF YOU WANT TO MINIMIZE THE TOTAL AMOUNT OF PRESSURE PUT ON YOUR DOG ...
over his lifetime,
and ,
STILL obtain very high standards on very unnatural tasks


Use the MINIMUM pressure that will change behavior in all your "teaching"
( and let's not lie about the teaching, we make Fido uncomfortable when we
push him back down into a sit position or whatever ... Fido only really
understands the physical until we condition sounds and signals to that
physical, via "teaching" )

On the very rare, but nonetheless very real, occasions when Fido does know
exactly what you want but simply refuses ( ASIDE: most dogs this actually
happens roughly once a year, and it is my belief that it is a natural carry
over of the young wolf testing the 'alpha' to see if the old man still has
what it takes to lead )
..... apply the most pressure the dog can survive ( emotionally )

The combination of those two will avoid nagging ... the biggest accumulative
unpleasantness in most dog's interaction with humans.






Jeff, you mention the repulsive things you've seen in the name of training.
I'm positive I've done and do, things you'd put in that category ... some
were, indeed, repulsive,
.... way back when when I "knew everything about training"
....but the ones now are in the second mode above.




I will now take a minute to explain ( imho ) why the e-collar gets such a
bad rap in circles slightly interested in dog training ... ie. most of the
culture

Marvin gets a book and starts teaching Fido .... let's say hand signals, to
keep in my realm ... teaching, show and tell, mild pressure that people are
acclimated to. Things go well, and Fido is 'handling' and responding
better than 90% of the dogs around. Marvin gets compliments and his ego
gets attached to Fido's work.



Then Marvin tries to advance to more unnatural levels of the tasks ... or,
Fido decides it's time to test Marvin's status as head dog .... and the
struggle begins.

Marvin repeatedly tries his loudest voice and 'acceptable' pressures ( nags,
and, ah, nags ) to no avail, indeed things seem to get worse ( they are ).

In desperation ( nearly always when Mr Joe Average Merican first thinks
that,
maybe, just maybe, he doesn't really understand training ) he visits a
"pro."

The pro ( if he's even decent ) checks out Fido's teaching level, and
relationship with Marvin but quickly sees what is happening. He applies
very large amounts of pressure ( certainly by Marvin's standards ) to Fido
and the beast nearly instantly 'salutes' and says "yes sir, Mr Marvin" and
the task in question appears greatly improved
( please note it's NOT 'the task" that the trainer improved, it's Fido's
attitude .. if Fido didn't know how to do it, no pressure could possibly
make him improve ... without more teaching ......... and teaching NEVER
produces instant results )




Marvin is somewhat repulsed at what has happened to his dog but thrilled at
the result. He trots home and begins even more complicated tasks, ones
FIDO is NOT taught adequately. Fido, of course, fails.

Marvin ( and as an important aside ... the " I love my doggie, whole
bunches" types are ALWAYS the ones that become the most vicious in this
progression ) reflects on how tons of pressure "seemed" to work last time
and puts tons on Fido again.

But,
This time Fido is NOT arguing, he's undereducated and confused.

and he'll respond very negatively to the heavy pressure
.... all sorts of very ugly things can happen.



BUT Marvin will "act Republican" and "stay the course" applying
more and more pressure to more and more inappropriate situations, thus
CAUSING more and more situations he'll view as requiring pressure. Marvin
has seen "a magic fix" and honestly believes it was the tool that was the
magic, not the dog knowledge of the tool's user.



Marvin travels far and wide, nearly torturing Fido. But Fidos ( all of
em ) are tough and he learns to bear it ( much as he used to just cow,
uncertain and scared when Marvin erupted in loud noises over things not
understood ) and makes some progress
......( FAR less than he would have if Marvin had gone back to teaching mode
and realized that WELL OVER 95% of the 'mistakes' dogs make ... even older,
very experienced dogs ... are 'didn't understand' issues NOT "**** you"
issues )
.... and Marvin soon becomes the 'expert' (if not pro ) in the eyes of
beginners and soon he starts another 'dog lover' on the path down this
spiral.

I tell my clients, because I've been there, done that, myself. You will
go through three stages as a trainer.
1) You won't know anything, suffer, toss and turn at night and try to find
news ways to explain yourself to the dog .. when it doesn't go well ... you
blame, you.
2) You will "know it all" and all the techniques and all the tools .
3) Stage three is similar to stage one ... you respect the weakness of your
knowledge enough to remain very flexible, very patient and to ALWAYS look
long and hard in the mirror before blaming Fido for anything ... anything


in stages 1 and 3 most people and their dogs do well .... many people are
disgusting in stage two, and many dogs ruined ..


Jeff, I've gone to all this typing NOT to argue, or because I think you want
ti read it
.... only because I want to help you, maybe, understand your 'repulsive, dog
loving' friend
.... likely, either he's stuck in phase 2
.....or what you are calling repulsive was actually, long term, the best way
to limit pressure on the dog
.... from the actions you describe, I'd guess phase 2.

The saddest things about field trials are (a) people, the majority, that
never get past 2 and (b) MOST dogs simply can NOT, regardless, achieve FT
level work, but rather than get a new dog with Big League talent, or be
content to toss a ball in the backyard, people keep trying to make Fido into
what he can never be (btw, this explains why most people 'unimpressed by "FT
dogs" ... the specimens they are seeing aren't impressive ... trust me,
the real deal brings tears to my eyes even after 40 years
..... but, maybe, he lucks into 'good enough' work often enough to keep the
people fooled, poor thing. FWIW, My guess, based on 38+ plus years, is
that starting with the best, most likely, blood available and given skilled
and patient training ( it takes Guide Dogs for the Blind 4 months to train a
dog ... roughly 4 years to make a competitive Open dog ) ... LESS than 3%
of Labs and a lot less of the other retriever breeds really have the right
stuff for the game ... surprising? why? what % of our kids have Big League
talent?


----------------------
--------------------

In the doubtful case you waded through all this this far,
sorry to bore
but, gad, a little more

--------------------------
-------------------------

Story:

I was working with Rex and had been a couple years. It was National time
and that year it was on the West Coast so all of his clients with qualified
dogs where visiting.

His normal, paid, help was sick and he called and asked if I'd come shoot
for him. At lunch time on the third day, he realized I hadn't worked any
of "my" ( I had been pro for years ) dogs in days. He had a magnum water
blind set up for those National qualifiers ( only the best 90 in the nation,
or so, any given year, qualify ) and feeling sorry for me said, "Get Samson
and run that blind." Samson was a high quality but young dog.

I put Rex's e-collar on Samson and left, as I always did at that stage in my
learning, the transmitter by Rex for his control.

I started trying to do this blind with my dog ( really was, I owned him )
and things went very badly. Sammy 'wouldn't' sit, 'wouldn't' cast ..
'wouldn't' nearly everything on this hyper-difficult test. I looked over
and Rex appeared totally absorbed in chatting with clients from all over the
country, trading gossip. I felt totally frustrated. Had I had that
transmitter, Sammy would have felt my frustration, not that I'm proud to say
that.

Finally, I started mumbling to 'myself' when Sam would make an error, "You
****ing asshole" or similar. The second mumble, Rex, who I thought was
oblivious to me and my difficulties, got out of his chair, walked to me and
poked his finger in my chest with enough obvious fierceness I honestly
thought he was going to hit me and backed away. He said, very firmly, and
in front of many of my heros, "I don't EVER want to hear you swear at a dog
again. The ONLY thing you have to be mad about is that fact that YOU have
not trained this dog well enough to do this test."

I spent a hour or so wanting to run and hide that afternoon, then realized
he had been 100% correct

... it was THE single, most generous, most
meaningful and most, yes, loving, thing that wonderful man ever did for me.

I honestly can't remember being mad at a dog, it's been so long. I often
pretend to be since they respond to that acting, but if I were to actually
get mad, I'd put the dog up .... period. Feel free, if you wish, to share
my story with your friend ... it was the first moment I glimpsed 'stage 3'
and I'll always be grateful for that chewing out.


-------------------

sorry for all this, must be important to me

... EOT for me


... yes I hear the sigh of relief

Charlie Choc wrote:
On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 13:31:58 -0400, jeff miller wrote:


Charlie Choc wrote:


On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 12:13:52 -0400, jeff miller
wrote:



thanks...how many hours does it usually take you to get up to west
yellowstone or raynolds??


From where? It's probably 3 hours from Jackson going through the park(s).

salt lake...


I don't go that way, but I'd guess about 5 hours going up through Idaho, maybe
8+ taking the scenic route.

The scenic route would take 48 hours. :-)

(Assuming no driving at night.)

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

Larry L wrote:
snip
sorry for all this, must be important to me

...

Please don't apologize. As a total neophyte and anxious
new trainer of my first gun dog I read every word. I was
hoping for a little more info on how to avoid the dreaded
Phase 2. ;-)

And a word or two on a related subject. In one of your
responses you gracefully evaded a snarky comment from
one of roff's **** stirrers about $1500 puppies. Well,
it just so happens my new puppy costs $1500. ;-)

No matter what you pay for a puppy up front, $200 to the
local shelter ($100 fee + $100 donation), $500 to the
Amish puppy mill or $1500 to a reputable breeder it will
amortize to insignificance over the life of the puppy.
When Kipper got sick at the end of his life he cost us
way more than $1500 at the U of I Vet Med Oncology Center
and his referring vet but we'd have gladly paid three times
that amount for another year of Kipper the Hound.

--
Ken Fortenberry

Ken Fortenberry wrote:

Larry L wrote:

snip
sorry for all this, must be important to me

...


Please don't apologize.

ditto to this comment, larry. ...your posts are informative and
interesting, and, thus far, you've been able to maintain your interest
in communicating rather than arguing. i too appreciate your shared
insight, experience, and wisdom on this and other subjects.


And a word or two on a related subject. In one of your
responses you gracefully evaded a snarky comment from
one of roff's **** stirrers about $1500 puppies. Well,
it just so happens my new puppy costs $1500. ;-)


oh brother..."**** stirrer"? ...now that's rich!

No matter what you pay for a puppy up front, $200 to the
local shelter ($100 fee + $100 donation), $500 to the
Amish puppy mill or $1500 to a reputable breeder it will
amortize to insignificance over the life of the puppy.
When Kipper got sick at the end of his life he cost us
way more than $1500 at the U of I Vet Med Oncology Center
and his referring vet but we'd have gladly paid three times
that amount for another year of Kipper the Hound.


and at the end of the life of your $1500 dog you'll no doubt feel the
same...as do i about my "free" dog. but then, that wasn't the original
question you decided to label as "snarky", was it? larry evaded nothing
in his response...he simply answered a straight-forward question in a
straight-forward manner.

On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 15:47:42 -0400, jeff miller
wrote:

Ken Fortenberry wrote:

Larry L wrote:

snip
sorry for all this, must be important to me

...


Please don't apologize.

ditto to this comment, larry. ...your posts are informative and
interesting, and, thus far, you've been able to maintain your interest
in communicating rather than arguing. i too appreciate your shared
insight, experience, and wisdom on this and other subjects.


And a word or two on a related subject. In one of your
responses you gracefully evaded a snarky comment from
one of roff's **** stirrers about $1500 puppies. Well,
it just so happens my new puppy costs $1500. ;-)


oh brother..."**** stirrer"? ...now that's rich!

No matter what you pay for a puppy up front, $200 to the
local shelter ($100 fee + $100 donation), $500 to the
Amish puppy mill or $1500 to a reputable breeder it will
amortize to insignificance over the life of the puppy.
When Kipper got sick at the end of his life he cost us
way more than $1500 at the U of I Vet Med Oncology Center
and his referring vet but we'd have gladly paid three times
that amount for another year of Kipper the Hound.


and at the end of the life of your $1500 dog you'll no doubt feel the
same...as do i about my "free" dog. but then, that wasn't the original
question you decided to label as "snarky", was it? larry evaded nothing
in his response...he simply answered a straight-forward question in a
straight-forward manner.

Um, excuse me, Hillary, Barack...any chance you ladies would cut the
bickering in what you both said was a BS-free little corner of
ROFF...maybe you could just sorta blame it on Stephohnopuhlese...you
know, like good little Democrats...?

TC,
R