Ceviche

On Wed, 07 May 2008 16:25:15 +0100, Lazarus Cooke
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:


Well, "ceviche" covers a lot of ground, as does "salmon and trout"
(certain salmon is fine as sashimi/sushi/negiri - "sake"), but if you
mean to ask if citrus fruit juice will kill all fish-borne parasites in
every fresh- or salt-water fish and/or make it safe for all to consume
"raw," no, it won't. IMO, neither "trout" or "salmon" ceviche sound
very good, anyway, but, hey, YMMV...

I'm not sure how much ground it covers. The wikipedia definition: 'a
form of citrus-marinated seafood salad, popular in many Latin American
countries' seems simple and succinct.

But if I need to elaborate, I mean raw fish marinated in citrus juice -
ideally the juice of a fruit called 'limon' in Central/south America
and in Cuba - that is midway between lemon and lime in european terms.
(I'd use a mixture of lemon and lime juice).

Well, this is exactly what I mean by "covering a lot of ground," i.e.,
ceviche in, say, the US gulf coast (TX, LA, MS, AL, FL) will be
overwhelmingly "lime" juice - either Persian or Key, whereas further
south, it'll be, as you say, "limon," which really isn't readily
available outside those areas. And "seafood" covers a lot of ground -
various fishes, shrimp/prawn/lobster/crab, oysters and clams,
squid/calamari, even conch, etc., etc., etc. I've had about as many
different variations on ceviche as I have on gumbo - trust me, that's a
lot of variations...

On 'salmon' and 'trout' I agree, I was a bit vague, being in Europe. I
meant the only two beasties known here under those names, viz. salmo
salar and salmo trutta - especially in my case those caught by me in
fresh water.

I'm not sure whether it'd taste good or not - I know it's normally made
in Chile with turbot or sea-bass - but I'd like to try.

Good choices, as are snapper, cobia/lemonfish/ling, and several other
species, many of which are geographic location-dependent.

I don't think freshwater salmon is safe in sashimi - I think it's
heated before eating when one eats it thus, as is mackeral (sp??).

Well, typically, sake is Pacific salmon and it's frozen like tuna before
raw service. I eat it, have for years, and with never a problem - I
just don't think it would make tasty ceviche.

And I'm disappointed that

Look/ask for "sake" in a trusted sushi bar - I offer no warranty,
expressed or implied...

if you
mean to ask if citrus fruit juice will kill all fish-borne parasites in
every fresh- or salt-water fish and/or make it safe for all to consume
"raw," no, it won't.

Any elaboration on sources, details etc?

I'd offer that a Google of "Anisakiasis ceviche" would produce a wealth
of info, and certainly a number of places to start if you REALLY want to
look into it.

If you want the bottom line, it's that a short soak in citrus juice
won't kill every potential nasty. The acid in the citrus juice really
just causes a protein reaction in the seafood that makes it looked
"cooked," it doesn't (obviously) "cook" it in the traditional sense, nor
is it a substitute for the heat that kills various nasties in
"traditional" "cooking."

A favorite recipe for us is:

fish, cubed about 1/2" - 15mm or so
shrimp _lightly_ steamed _and then_ peeled
oysters, if in season
lump crabmeat
pico de gallo (tomatoes, chiles, onions, avocados, all diced about like
the fish, cilantro/coriander _leaves_, vinegar, cumin/comino powder,
garlic, salt and pepper, a shot of lemon juice)
squid/calamari rings, if fresh-caught
lime juice
and depending on who's eating, some more chiles (whatever milder chile
is handy - about up to jalapeno or so)

Mix and let macerate for a coupla hours or so. Eat with saltine
crackers, corn tortillas, or your hands, depending...

We make this while fishing, on the beach, and at home, though mainly
when the seafood is fresh-caught.

Thanks for the help.

You're welcome, and hope the above helps, too,
R

Lazarus

Lazarus

wrote:

[snippage]

Well, typically, sake is Pacific salmon and it's frozen like tuna before
raw service. I eat it, have for years, and with never a problem - I
just don't think it would make tasty ceviche.

FWIW, when Carol and I were in Hawaii, we had a dish called
lomi-lomi salmon. IIRC, it was made with raw (salted?) salmon, onions,
lime juice, tomatoes and maybe a bit of red pepper flakes.

I know it's not ceviche, but it was a similar idea. I'm guessing
they probably froze it like you mention above to make it safe.


Chuck Vance (btw, the lomi-lomi was very good)

On Thu, 08 May 2008 07:16:41 -0500, Conan The Librarian
wrote:

wrote:

[snippage]

Well, typically, sake is Pacific salmon and it's frozen like tuna before
raw service. I eat it, have for years, and with never a problem - I
just don't think it would make tasty ceviche.

FWIW, when Carol and I were in Hawaii, we had a dish called
lomi-lomi salmon. IIRC, it was made with raw (salted?) salmon, onions,
lime juice, tomatoes and maybe a bit of red pepper flakes.

I know it's not ceviche, but it was a similar idea. I'm guessing
they probably froze it like you mention above to make it safe.


Chuck Vance (btw, the lomi-lomi was very good)

Interesting. I've never had lomi-lomi salmon that was like what I would
call "ceviche," but hey, like I said, "ceviche" covers a lot of ground.
I thought it was smoked salmon, which by itself wouldn't necessarily
kill all the nasties, but freezing first and then smoking is sort of a
double whammy. Are you familiar with cold-smoked salmon? If so, was
what you had anything like it? And my feelings toward a salmon
"ceviche" are more that it would be both an inappropriate fish and a
waste to make "ceviche" out of it - picture, if you will, chicken-fried
trout for something akin to my feeling toward salmon ceviche.

TC,
R

wrote:

Interesting. I've never had lomi-lomi salmon that was like what I would
call "ceviche," but hey, like I said, "ceviche" covers a lot of ground.
I thought it was smoked salmon, which by itself wouldn't necessarily
kill all the nasties, but freezing first and then smoking is sort of a
double whammy. Are you familiar with cold-smoked salmon? If so, was
what you had anything like it?

Nope, it wasn't smoked at all. I don't know if this was the
"traditional" preparation of lomi-lomi, but it was in a little dive on
Kauai (the Aloha Cafe, IIRC), so I don't have any reason to doubt that
it was authentic.

As far as the similarity to ceviche -- that's what caught my
attention. Throw in some cilantro and a few serrano peppers and it
could have passed for it.

And my feelings toward a salmon
"ceviche" are more that it would be both an inappropriate fish and a
waste to make "ceviche" out of it - picture, if you will, chicken-fried
trout for something akin to my feeling toward salmon ceviche.

I don't totally disagree with you, because I could do just fine if I
never ate salmon any way but smoked. All else being equal, I'd be happy
with shrimp ceviche exclusively.


Chuck Vance

On Thu, 08 May 2008 11:48:39 -0500, Conan The Librarian
wrote:

wrote:

Interesting. I've never had lomi-lomi salmon that was like what I would
call "ceviche," but hey, like I said, "ceviche" covers a lot of ground.
I thought it was smoked salmon, which by itself wouldn't necessarily
kill all the nasties, but freezing first and then smoking is sort of a
double whammy. Are you familiar with cold-smoked salmon? If so, was
what you had anything like it?

Nope, it wasn't smoked at all.

Well, that's why I asked about _cold_ smoked (or cured) - if you're not
familiar with it, it's markedly different that hot smoked.

I don't know if this was the "traditional" preparation of lomi-lomi

Neither do I...and in fact, don't know if it is "traditional," something
recently adapted, or even just something recently "invented"

, but it was in a little dive on Kauai (the Aloha Cafe, IIRC), so I don't have
any reason to doubt that it was authentic.

I know very little about true "native" Hawaiian food: I don't like poi,
but do like much of the other stiuff I've tried, and I understand, but
don't _know_, that much of what is now considered "Hawaiian" food is
late 19th-to-20th century introduction/adaptation from the US mainland,
Japan, other islands, etc. That's about it, so I have no basis on which
to comment "authentic." I'd wonder how/why Hawaiians got their
hands on salmon for it to be a typical "traditional" dish of any long
standing, but ???

As far as the similarity to ceviche -- that's what caught my
attention. Throw in some cilantro and a few serrano peppers and it
could have passed for it.

TC,
R

wrote:

On Thu, 08 May 2008 11:48:39 -0500, Conan The Librarian
wrote:

Nope, it wasn't smoked at all.

Well, that's why I asked about _cold_ smoked (or cured) - if you're not
familiar with it, it's markedly different that hot smoked.

Yep. I'm familiar with the process, as I'm a huge fan of various
smoked meats/fish/etc. I even considered converted an old refrigerator
to a "smokehouse", but that project got set aside some time ago, and now
I just use a Brinkman upright for hot-smoking salmon, ribs, chicken, etc.

I don't know if this was the "traditional" preparation of lomi-lomi

Neither do I...and in fact, don't know if it is "traditional," something
recently adapted, or even just something recently "invented"

, but it was in a little dive on Kauai (the Aloha Cafe, IIRC), so I don't have
any reason to doubt that it was authentic.

I know very little about true "native" Hawaiian food: I don't like poi,
but do like much of the other stiuff I've tried, and I understand, but
don't _know_, that much of what is now considered "Hawaiian" food is
late 19th-to-20th century introduction/adaptation from the US mainland,
Japan, other islands, etc. That's about it, so I have no basis on which
to comment "authentic." I'd wonder how/why Hawaiians got their
hands on salmon for it to be a typical "traditional" dish of any long
standing, but ???

Poor choice of words on my part. My comment was simply intended to
note that while you mentioned that the lomi-lomi you had eaten was made
with smoked salmon, the stuff I had was definitely not smoked, and I had
no reason to believe it was any less "authentic" than the version you
had eaten. And it was definitely similar to ceviche.

I'd expect the use of salmon is probably linked to the Japanese
influence you mention above. I know that some of the high-end
restaurants we ate at featured menus that were heavily-influenced by
Japanese cuisine.


Chuck Vance

On Fri, 09 May 2008 06:24:14 -0500, Conan The Librarian
wrote:

wrote:

On Thu, 08 May 2008 11:48:39 -0500, Conan The Librarian
wrote:

Nope, it wasn't smoked at all.

Well, that's why I asked about _cold_ smoked (or cured) - if you're not
familiar with it, it's markedly different that hot smoked.

Yep. I'm familiar with the process, as I'm a huge fan of various
smoked meats/fish/etc. I even considered converted an old refrigerator
to a "smokehouse", but that project got set aside some time ago, and now
I just use a Brinkman upright for hot-smoking salmon, ribs, chicken, etc.

I don't know if this was the "traditional" preparation of lomi-lomi

Neither do I...and in fact, don't know if it is "traditional," something
recently adapted, or even just something recently "invented"

, but it was in a little dive on Kauai (the Aloha Cafe, IIRC), so I don't have
any reason to doubt that it was authentic.

I know very little about true "native" Hawaiian food: I don't like poi,
but do like much of the other stiuff I've tried, and I understand, but
don't _know_, that much of what is now considered "Hawaiian" food is
late 19th-to-20th century introduction/adaptation from the US mainland,
Japan, other islands, etc. That's about it, so I have no basis on which
to comment "authentic." I'd wonder how/why Hawaiians got their
hands on salmon for it to be a typical "traditional" dish of any long
standing, but ???

Poor choice of words on my part. My comment was simply intended to
note that while you mentioned that the lomi-lomi you had eaten was made
with smoked salmon, the stuff I had was definitely not smoked, and I had
no reason to believe it was any less "authentic" than the version you
had eaten. And it was definitely similar to ceviche.

I'd expect the use of salmon is probably linked to the Japanese
influence you mention above. I know that some of the high-end
restaurants we ate at featured menus that were heavily-influenced by
Japanese cuisine.

OK, first, let's clarify - if I understand what you are saying, what you
had was raw (and not cold-smoked or cured) "Pacific" salmon (pink,
Amago, whatever - oncowhatsis - since you attribute what you had to
Japan) and no version of salmo whatever, correct? Any indication of
the salmon's origin - east or west (Amago, etc.)?

And speaking of origin...

This might be wandering a bit (if anyone is still following it) - I
didn't qualify my response to Lazarus beyond using the word "Pacific,"
assuming since he used the word "salmo" he knew the difference, but to
make su when I have spoken of raw "salmon"/"sake," I have meant
Pacific salmon, oncowhatever, not any form of Atlantic salmon, salmo
whatever or sal****er browns. And while fully acknowledging it to be
a personal thing, when I think of cold-smoked or cured salmon, I think
salmo/Atlantic, when I think of hot-smoked, it could be either, and when
I think of anything involving raw, it's Pacific/oncowhatever.

TC,
R


Chuck Vance