Ceviche

On Thu, 08 May 2008 07:16:41 -0500, Conan The Librarian
wrote:

wrote:

[snippage]

Well, typically, sake is Pacific salmon and it's frozen like tuna before
raw service. I eat it, have for years, and with never a problem - I
just don't think it would make tasty ceviche.

FWIW, when Carol and I were in Hawaii, we had a dish called
lomi-lomi salmon. IIRC, it was made with raw (salted?) salmon, onions,
lime juice, tomatoes and maybe a bit of red pepper flakes.

I know it's not ceviche, but it was a similar idea. I'm guessing
they probably froze it like you mention above to make it safe.


Chuck Vance (btw, the lomi-lomi was very good)

Interesting. I've never had lomi-lomi salmon that was like what I would
call "ceviche," but hey, like I said, "ceviche" covers a lot of ground.
I thought it was smoked salmon, which by itself wouldn't necessarily
kill all the nasties, but freezing first and then smoking is sort of a
double whammy. Are you familiar with cold-smoked salmon? If so, was
what you had anything like it? And my feelings toward a salmon
"ceviche" are more that it would be both an inappropriate fish and a
waste to make "ceviche" out of it - picture, if you will, chicken-fried
trout for something akin to my feeling toward salmon ceviche.

TC,
R

wrote:

Interesting. I've never had lomi-lomi salmon that was like what I would
call "ceviche," but hey, like I said, "ceviche" covers a lot of ground.
I thought it was smoked salmon, which by itself wouldn't necessarily
kill all the nasties, but freezing first and then smoking is sort of a
double whammy. Are you familiar with cold-smoked salmon? If so, was
what you had anything like it?

Nope, it wasn't smoked at all. I don't know if this was the
"traditional" preparation of lomi-lomi, but it was in a little dive on
Kauai (the Aloha Cafe, IIRC), so I don't have any reason to doubt that
it was authentic.

As far as the similarity to ceviche -- that's what caught my
attention. Throw in some cilantro and a few serrano peppers and it
could have passed for it.

And my feelings toward a salmon
"ceviche" are more that it would be both an inappropriate fish and a
waste to make "ceviche" out of it - picture, if you will, chicken-fried
trout for something akin to my feeling toward salmon ceviche.

I don't totally disagree with you, because I could do just fine if I
never ate salmon any way but smoked. All else being equal, I'd be happy
with shrimp ceviche exclusively.


Chuck Vance

On Thu, 08 May 2008 11:48:39 -0500, Conan The Librarian
wrote:

wrote:

Interesting. I've never had lomi-lomi salmon that was like what I would
call "ceviche," but hey, like I said, "ceviche" covers a lot of ground.
I thought it was smoked salmon, which by itself wouldn't necessarily
kill all the nasties, but freezing first and then smoking is sort of a
double whammy. Are you familiar with cold-smoked salmon? If so, was
what you had anything like it?

Nope, it wasn't smoked at all.

Well, that's why I asked about _cold_ smoked (or cured) - if you're not
familiar with it, it's markedly different that hot smoked.

I don't know if this was the "traditional" preparation of lomi-lomi

Neither do I...and in fact, don't know if it is "traditional," something
recently adapted, or even just something recently "invented"

, but it was in a little dive on Kauai (the Aloha Cafe, IIRC), so I don't have
any reason to doubt that it was authentic.

I know very little about true "native" Hawaiian food: I don't like poi,
but do like much of the other stiuff I've tried, and I understand, but
don't _know_, that much of what is now considered "Hawaiian" food is
late 19th-to-20th century introduction/adaptation from the US mainland,
Japan, other islands, etc. That's about it, so I have no basis on which
to comment "authentic." I'd wonder how/why Hawaiians got their
hands on salmon for it to be a typical "traditional" dish of any long
standing, but ???

As far as the similarity to ceviche -- that's what caught my
attention. Throw in some cilantro and a few serrano peppers and it
could have passed for it.

TC,
R

wrote:

On Thu, 08 May 2008 11:48:39 -0500, Conan The Librarian
wrote:

Nope, it wasn't smoked at all.

Well, that's why I asked about _cold_ smoked (or cured) - if you're not
familiar with it, it's markedly different that hot smoked.

Yep. I'm familiar with the process, as I'm a huge fan of various
smoked meats/fish/etc. I even considered converted an old refrigerator
to a "smokehouse", but that project got set aside some time ago, and now
I just use a Brinkman upright for hot-smoking salmon, ribs, chicken, etc.

I don't know if this was the "traditional" preparation of lomi-lomi

Neither do I...and in fact, don't know if it is "traditional," something
recently adapted, or even just something recently "invented"

, but it was in a little dive on Kauai (the Aloha Cafe, IIRC), so I don't have
any reason to doubt that it was authentic.

I know very little about true "native" Hawaiian food: I don't like poi,
but do like much of the other stiuff I've tried, and I understand, but
don't _know_, that much of what is now considered "Hawaiian" food is
late 19th-to-20th century introduction/adaptation from the US mainland,
Japan, other islands, etc. That's about it, so I have no basis on which
to comment "authentic." I'd wonder how/why Hawaiians got their
hands on salmon for it to be a typical "traditional" dish of any long
standing, but ???

Poor choice of words on my part. My comment was simply intended to
note that while you mentioned that the lomi-lomi you had eaten was made
with smoked salmon, the stuff I had was definitely not smoked, and I had
no reason to believe it was any less "authentic" than the version you
had eaten. And it was definitely similar to ceviche.

I'd expect the use of salmon is probably linked to the Japanese
influence you mention above. I know that some of the high-end
restaurants we ate at featured menus that were heavily-influenced by
Japanese cuisine.


Chuck Vance

On Fri, 09 May 2008 06:24:14 -0500, Conan The Librarian
wrote:

wrote:

On Thu, 08 May 2008 11:48:39 -0500, Conan The Librarian
wrote:

Nope, it wasn't smoked at all.

Well, that's why I asked about _cold_ smoked (or cured) - if you're not
familiar with it, it's markedly different that hot smoked.

Yep. I'm familiar with the process, as I'm a huge fan of various
smoked meats/fish/etc. I even considered converted an old refrigerator
to a "smokehouse", but that project got set aside some time ago, and now
I just use a Brinkman upright for hot-smoking salmon, ribs, chicken, etc.

I don't know if this was the "traditional" preparation of lomi-lomi

Neither do I...and in fact, don't know if it is "traditional," something
recently adapted, or even just something recently "invented"

, but it was in a little dive on Kauai (the Aloha Cafe, IIRC), so I don't have
any reason to doubt that it was authentic.

I know very little about true "native" Hawaiian food: I don't like poi,
but do like much of the other stiuff I've tried, and I understand, but
don't _know_, that much of what is now considered "Hawaiian" food is
late 19th-to-20th century introduction/adaptation from the US mainland,
Japan, other islands, etc. That's about it, so I have no basis on which
to comment "authentic." I'd wonder how/why Hawaiians got their
hands on salmon for it to be a typical "traditional" dish of any long
standing, but ???

Poor choice of words on my part. My comment was simply intended to
note that while you mentioned that the lomi-lomi you had eaten was made
with smoked salmon, the stuff I had was definitely not smoked, and I had
no reason to believe it was any less "authentic" than the version you
had eaten. And it was definitely similar to ceviche.

I'd expect the use of salmon is probably linked to the Japanese
influence you mention above. I know that some of the high-end
restaurants we ate at featured menus that were heavily-influenced by
Japanese cuisine.

OK, first, let's clarify - if I understand what you are saying, what you
had was raw (and not cold-smoked or cured) "Pacific" salmon (pink,
Amago, whatever - oncowhatsis - since you attribute what you had to
Japan) and no version of salmo whatever, correct? Any indication of
the salmon's origin - east or west (Amago, etc.)?

And speaking of origin...

This might be wandering a bit (if anyone is still following it) - I
didn't qualify my response to Lazarus beyond using the word "Pacific,"
assuming since he used the word "salmo" he knew the difference, but to
make su when I have spoken of raw "salmon"/"sake," I have meant
Pacific salmon, oncowhatever, not any form of Atlantic salmon, salmo
whatever or sal****er browns. And while fully acknowledging it to be
a personal thing, when I think of cold-smoked or cured salmon, I think
salmo/Atlantic, when I think of hot-smoked, it could be either, and when
I think of anything involving raw, it's Pacific/oncowhatever.

TC,
R


Chuck Vance

wrote:

On Fri, 09 May 2008 06:24:14 -0500, Conan The Librarian
wrote:

Poor choice of words on my part. My comment was simply intended to
note that while you mentioned that the lomi-lomi you had eaten was made
with smoked salmon, the stuff I had was definitely not smoked, and I had
no reason to believe it was any less "authentic" than the version you
had eaten. And it was definitely similar to ceviche.

I'd expect the use of salmon is probably linked to the Japanese
influence you mention above. I know that some of the high-end
restaurants we ate at featured menus that were heavily-influenced by
Japanese cuisine.

OK, first, let's clarify - if I understand what you are saying, what you
had was raw (and not cold-smoked or cured) "Pacific" salmon (pink,
Amago, whatever - oncowhatsis - since you attribute what you had to
Japan) and no version of salmo whatever, correct? Any indication of
the salmon's origin - east or west (Amago, etc.)?

Hell, all I know is that it was called salmon, looked like salmon
and tasted like salmon (not trout).


Chuck Vance

On Fri, 09 May 2008 10:53:07 -0500, Conan The Librarian
wrote:

wrote:

On Fri, 09 May 2008 06:24:14 -0500, Conan The Librarian
wrote:

Poor choice of words on my part. My comment was simply intended to
note that while you mentioned that the lomi-lomi you had eaten was made
with smoked salmon, the stuff I had was definitely not smoked, and I had
no reason to believe it was any less "authentic" than the version you
had eaten. And it was definitely similar to ceviche.

I'd expect the use of salmon is probably linked to the Japanese
influence you mention above. I know that some of the high-end
restaurants we ate at featured menus that were heavily-influenced by
Japanese cuisine.

OK, first, let's clarify - if I understand what you are saying, what you
had was raw (and not cold-smoked or cured) "Pacific" salmon (pink,
Amago, whatever - oncowhatsis - since you attribute what you had to
Japan) and no version of salmo whatever, correct? Any indication of
the salmon's origin - east or west (Amago, etc.)?

Hell, all I know is that it was called salmon, looked like salmon
and tasted like salmon (not trout).

Which "salmon" - Pacific salmon (onco-whatsis
morelatiniforgotatthemoment), like sake in a sushi bar, or Atlantic
salmon (salmo salar) preparations*?

* - like gravlax, lox, various Scottish dishes, etc.,, some of which is
served also raw (from northern climates - Norway, Denmark?), but I've
never seen "salmon" from the British Isles served raw. And this is why
I was hesitant to initially assume what Lazarus meant - "salmon" is a
broad term, meaning different things to different people and in
different regions/cultures.

And that's why I asked you if it could have been cold-smoked/cured - at
casual glance, Atlantic cold-smoked/cured salmon, if put into a
ceviche-like dish with acids from citrus, tomato, peppers/chiles, etc.
might appear to be raw Pacific salmon, ala sake in a sushi bar if one is
simply eating-enjoying and not analyzing (not familiar with all of the
varieties). I'm not saying it _would_ appear as such, because I have no
idea, never having tried such, but when a lemon wheel is placed on sake,
it tends to make it look heat-cooked (ala a light poaching), whereas
when placed on cold-smoked/cured Atlantic salmon, it tends to have
little effect IME, leaving it looking the more or less the same - sorta
raw in appearance to one not familiar with it.

TC,
R


Chuck Vance