Ceviche

On Thu, 08 May 2008 11:48:39 -0500, Conan The Librarian
wrote:

wrote:

Interesting. I've never had lomi-lomi salmon that was like what I would
call "ceviche," but hey, like I said, "ceviche" covers a lot of ground.
I thought it was smoked salmon, which by itself wouldn't necessarily
kill all the nasties, but freezing first and then smoking is sort of a
double whammy. Are you familiar with cold-smoked salmon? If so, was
what you had anything like it?

Nope, it wasn't smoked at all.

Well, that's why I asked about _cold_ smoked (or cured) - if you're not
familiar with it, it's markedly different that hot smoked.

I don't know if this was the "traditional" preparation of lomi-lomi

Neither do I...and in fact, don't know if it is "traditional," something
recently adapted, or even just something recently "invented"

, but it was in a little dive on Kauai (the Aloha Cafe, IIRC), so I don't have
any reason to doubt that it was authentic.

I know very little about true "native" Hawaiian food: I don't like poi,
but do like much of the other stiuff I've tried, and I understand, but
don't _know_, that much of what is now considered "Hawaiian" food is
late 19th-to-20th century introduction/adaptation from the US mainland,
Japan, other islands, etc. That's about it, so I have no basis on which
to comment "authentic." I'd wonder how/why Hawaiians got their
hands on salmon for it to be a typical "traditional" dish of any long
standing, but ???

As far as the similarity to ceviche -- that's what caught my
attention. Throw in some cilantro and a few serrano peppers and it
could have passed for it.

TC,
R

In article ,
wrote:

On Wed, 07 May 2008 16:25:15 +0100, Lazarus Cooke
wrote:

PS - "sake" when describing salmon is pronounced, generally, "sha-kay,"
rather than, generally, "sa-ki," as in the beverage/wine.

Hi thanks RD - yes I know the stuff. My normal saturday lunch if I'm in
the West End of London would be a sashimi set of sake and maguro.And
thanks for the recipe and the name of the parasite I was thinking
about.

Sake is, of course, as you say, frozen not heated to kill of the bugs.
But mackrel - saba - is cured in salt and vinegar, not just to alter
the flavour o0f the fish, but to kill off bugs (in shime-saba). I don't
think the Japaneses normally eat saba without some sort of protective
process..

Lazarus

wrote:

On Thu, 08 May 2008 11:48:39 -0500, Conan The Librarian
wrote:

Nope, it wasn't smoked at all.

Well, that's why I asked about _cold_ smoked (or cured) - if you're not
familiar with it, it's markedly different that hot smoked.

Yep. I'm familiar with the process, as I'm a huge fan of various
smoked meats/fish/etc. I even considered converted an old refrigerator
to a "smokehouse", but that project got set aside some time ago, and now
I just use a Brinkman upright for hot-smoking salmon, ribs, chicken, etc.

I don't know if this was the "traditional" preparation of lomi-lomi

Neither do I...and in fact, don't know if it is "traditional," something
recently adapted, or even just something recently "invented"

, but it was in a little dive on Kauai (the Aloha Cafe, IIRC), so I don't have
any reason to doubt that it was authentic.

I know very little about true "native" Hawaiian food: I don't like poi,
but do like much of the other stiuff I've tried, and I understand, but
don't _know_, that much of what is now considered "Hawaiian" food is
late 19th-to-20th century introduction/adaptation from the US mainland,
Japan, other islands, etc. That's about it, so I have no basis on which
to comment "authentic." I'd wonder how/why Hawaiians got their
hands on salmon for it to be a typical "traditional" dish of any long
standing, but ???

Poor choice of words on my part. My comment was simply intended to
note that while you mentioned that the lomi-lomi you had eaten was made
with smoked salmon, the stuff I had was definitely not smoked, and I had
no reason to believe it was any less "authentic" than the version you
had eaten. And it was definitely similar to ceviche.

I'd expect the use of salmon is probably linked to the Japanese
influence you mention above. I know that some of the high-end
restaurants we ate at featured menus that were heavily-influenced by
Japanese cuisine.


Chuck Vance

On Fri, 09 May 2008 06:24:14 -0500, Conan The Librarian
wrote:

wrote:

On Thu, 08 May 2008 11:48:39 -0500, Conan The Librarian
wrote:

Nope, it wasn't smoked at all.

Well, that's why I asked about _cold_ smoked (or cured) - if you're not
familiar with it, it's markedly different that hot smoked.

Yep. I'm familiar with the process, as I'm a huge fan of various
smoked meats/fish/etc. I even considered converted an old refrigerator
to a "smokehouse", but that project got set aside some time ago, and now
I just use a Brinkman upright for hot-smoking salmon, ribs, chicken, etc.

I don't know if this was the "traditional" preparation of lomi-lomi

Neither do I...and in fact, don't know if it is "traditional," something
recently adapted, or even just something recently "invented"

, but it was in a little dive on Kauai (the Aloha Cafe, IIRC), so I don't have
any reason to doubt that it was authentic.

I know very little about true "native" Hawaiian food: I don't like poi,
but do like much of the other stiuff I've tried, and I understand, but
don't _know_, that much of what is now considered "Hawaiian" food is
late 19th-to-20th century introduction/adaptation from the US mainland,
Japan, other islands, etc. That's about it, so I have no basis on which
to comment "authentic." I'd wonder how/why Hawaiians got their
hands on salmon for it to be a typical "traditional" dish of any long
standing, but ???

Poor choice of words on my part. My comment was simply intended to
note that while you mentioned that the lomi-lomi you had eaten was made
with smoked salmon, the stuff I had was definitely not smoked, and I had
no reason to believe it was any less "authentic" than the version you
had eaten. And it was definitely similar to ceviche.

I'd expect the use of salmon is probably linked to the Japanese
influence you mention above. I know that some of the high-end
restaurants we ate at featured menus that were heavily-influenced by
Japanese cuisine.

OK, first, let's clarify - if I understand what you are saying, what you
had was raw (and not cold-smoked or cured) "Pacific" salmon (pink,
Amago, whatever - oncowhatsis - since you attribute what you had to
Japan) and no version of salmo whatever, correct? Any indication of
the salmon's origin - east or west (Amago, etc.)?

And speaking of origin...

This might be wandering a bit (if anyone is still following it) - I
didn't qualify my response to Lazarus beyond using the word "Pacific,"
assuming since he used the word "salmo" he knew the difference, but to
make su when I have spoken of raw "salmon"/"sake," I have meant
Pacific salmon, oncowhatever, not any form of Atlantic salmon, salmo
whatever or sal****er browns. And while fully acknowledging it to be
a personal thing, when I think of cold-smoked or cured salmon, I think
salmo/Atlantic, when I think of hot-smoked, it could be either, and when
I think of anything involving raw, it's Pacific/oncowhatever.

TC,
R


Chuck Vance

wrote:

On Fri, 09 May 2008 06:24:14 -0500, Conan The Librarian
wrote:

Poor choice of words on my part. My comment was simply intended to
note that while you mentioned that the lomi-lomi you had eaten was made
with smoked salmon, the stuff I had was definitely not smoked, and I had
no reason to believe it was any less "authentic" than the version you
had eaten. And it was definitely similar to ceviche.

I'd expect the use of salmon is probably linked to the Japanese
influence you mention above. I know that some of the high-end
restaurants we ate at featured menus that were heavily-influenced by
Japanese cuisine.

OK, first, let's clarify - if I understand what you are saying, what you
had was raw (and not cold-smoked or cured) "Pacific" salmon (pink,
Amago, whatever - oncowhatsis - since you attribute what you had to
Japan) and no version of salmo whatever, correct? Any indication of
the salmon's origin - east or west (Amago, etc.)?

Hell, all I know is that it was called salmon, looked like salmon
and tasted like salmon (not trout).


Chuck Vance

On Fri, 09 May 2008 10:53:07 -0500, Conan The Librarian
wrote:

wrote:

On Fri, 09 May 2008 06:24:14 -0500, Conan The Librarian
wrote:

Poor choice of words on my part. My comment was simply intended to
note that while you mentioned that the lomi-lomi you had eaten was made
with smoked salmon, the stuff I had was definitely not smoked, and I had
no reason to believe it was any less "authentic" than the version you
had eaten. And it was definitely similar to ceviche.

I'd expect the use of salmon is probably linked to the Japanese
influence you mention above. I know that some of the high-end
restaurants we ate at featured menus that were heavily-influenced by
Japanese cuisine.

OK, first, let's clarify - if I understand what you are saying, what you
had was raw (and not cold-smoked or cured) "Pacific" salmon (pink,
Amago, whatever - oncowhatsis - since you attribute what you had to
Japan) and no version of salmo whatever, correct? Any indication of
the salmon's origin - east or west (Amago, etc.)?

Hell, all I know is that it was called salmon, looked like salmon
and tasted like salmon (not trout).

Which "salmon" - Pacific salmon (onco-whatsis
morelatiniforgotatthemoment), like sake in a sushi bar, or Atlantic
salmon (salmo salar) preparations*?

* - like gravlax, lox, various Scottish dishes, etc.,, some of which is
served also raw (from northern climates - Norway, Denmark?), but I've
never seen "salmon" from the British Isles served raw. And this is why
I was hesitant to initially assume what Lazarus meant - "salmon" is a
broad term, meaning different things to different people and in
different regions/cultures.

And that's why I asked you if it could have been cold-smoked/cured - at
casual glance, Atlantic cold-smoked/cured salmon, if put into a
ceviche-like dish with acids from citrus, tomato, peppers/chiles, etc.
might appear to be raw Pacific salmon, ala sake in a sushi bar if one is
simply eating-enjoying and not analyzing (not familiar with all of the
varieties). I'm not saying it _would_ appear as such, because I have no
idea, never having tried such, but when a lemon wheel is placed on sake,
it tends to make it look heat-cooked (ala a light poaching), whereas
when placed on cold-smoked/cured Atlantic salmon, it tends to have
little effect IME, leaving it looking the more or less the same - sorta
raw in appearance to one not familiar with it.

TC,
R


Chuck Vance

In article ,
wrote:


* - like gravlax, lox, various Scottish dishes, etc.,, some of which is
served also raw (from northern climates - Norway, Denmark?), but I've
never seen "salmon" from the British Isles served raw. And this is why
I was hesitant to initially assume what Lazarus meant - "salmon" is a
broad term, meaning different things to different people and in
different regions/cultures.

Hi RD

thanks for all this, and I agree with your need for precision. Since
the last post I've looked around, and discovered that that nasty
parasite is more common in Pacific salmon than in Atlantic, but is
pretty common in all wild salmon, (although not in farmed fish, for
obvious reasons if you can be bothered to go through the life cycle of
the parasite).

In fact, if you do a google on ceviche and salmon and uk , you will
come across lots of recipes for cevche of Atlantic salmon, including
some from big-name chefs, which make no mention of the parasite
problem (possibly they assume that all salmon is farmed, possibly
they're ignorant.)

Anyway, thanks for your input, which has helped me, and which I hope
may help some others.

Lazarus

On Fri, 09 May 2008 21:42:03 +0100, Lazarus Cooke
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:


* - like gravlax, lox, various Scottish dishes, etc.,, some of which is
served also raw (from northern climates - Norway, Denmark?), but I've
never seen "salmon" from the British Isles served raw. And this is why
I was hesitant to initially assume what Lazarus meant - "salmon" is a
broad term, meaning different things to different people and in
different regions/cultures.

Hi RD

thanks for all this, and I agree with your need for precision. Since
the last post I've looked around, and discovered that that nasty
parasite is more common in Pacific salmon than in Atlantic, but is
pretty common in all wild salmon, (although not in farmed fish, for
obvious reasons if you can be bothered to go through the life cycle of
the parasite).

In fact, if you do a google on ceviche and salmon and uk , you will
come across lots of recipes for cevche of Atlantic salmon, including
some from big-name chefs, which make no mention of the parasite
problem (possibly they assume that all salmon is farmed, possibly
they're ignorant.)

I Googled, and got different results. I first Googling "ceviche
'Atlantic salmon' uk" to try and get right to the, um, meat of the
matter, as it were. I got 180 hits, and the when the first recipe I saw
was called scallop ceviche with salmon and involved sauteed scallops and
smoked salmon and the second had no lime, tomatoes, peppers, onions,
etc., but did have salt and sugar, cucumbers, and sour(ed) cream and
described itself as a tartare-like dish, I quit. When I Googled
"ceviche salmon UK" I got lots more hits, but still saw nothing that was
clearly using _raw_ salmo salar from the UK. I did see one using
"farmed salmon" (which is mostly Atlantic salmon "farmed" in the
Pacific...) which would be nothing like using wild salmo salar from the
UK and some using "smoked salmon" with no further description. Bottom
line for me is that I'll not be making any "salmon ceviche," and if I
want anything besides beef in my tartare, it would be tuna, but that's
not really "tartare," IMO.

And there are more than the worms/larvae as nasties in "salmon," so keep
that in mind when eating any raw "salmon" whatever the source.

TC,
R

Anyway, thanks for your input, which has helped me, and which I hope
may help some others.

Lazarus

In article ,
wrote:

I Googled, and got different results. I first Googling "ceviche
'Atlantic salmon' uk" to try and get right to the, um, meat of the
matter, as it were. I got 180 hits, and the when the first recipe I saw
was called scallop ceviche with salmon and involved sauteed scallops and
smoked salmon and the second had no lime, tomatoes, peppers, onions,
etc., but did have salt and sugar, cucumbers, and sour(ed) cream and
described itself as a tartare-like dish, I quit. When I Googled
"ceviche salmon UK" I got lots more hits, but still saw nothing that was
clearly using _raw_ salmo salar from the UK. I did see one using
"farmed salmon" (which is mostly Atlantic salmon "farmed" in the
Pacific...) which would be nothing like using wild salmo salar from the
UK and some using "smoked salmon" with no further description. Bottom
line for me is that I'll not be making any "salmon ceviche," and if I
want anything besides beef in my tartare, it would be tuna, but that's
not really "tartare," IMO.

And there are more than the worms/larvae as nasties in "salmon," so keep
that in mind when eating any raw "salmon" whatever the source.

TC,
R

Hi RD

see for example

http://tinyurl.com/5rlpbf

(Gordon Ramsay ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordon_Ramsay ) is as big
as it gets in the UK)

http://uktv.co.uk/food/recipe/aid/591238

and

http://www.spain4uk.co.uk/eats/marinated_salmon.htm

'Salmon' in the UK means Salmo salar. Nearly all of it is farmed (not
in the pacific - in coastal regions of Scotland and Ireland to the
great detriment of wild salmon/seatrout runs)

If I try it, and live, I'll let you know.

Otherwise assume that the xperiment was fatal

Lazarus

On Fri, 09 May 2008 23:14:37 +0100, Lazarus Cooke
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:

I Googled, and got different results. I first Googling "ceviche
'Atlantic salmon' uk" to try and get right to the, um, meat of the
matter, as it were. I got 180 hits, and the when the first recipe I saw
was called scallop ceviche with salmon and involved sauteed scallops and
smoked salmon and the second had no lime, tomatoes, peppers, onions,
etc., but did have salt and sugar, cucumbers, and sour(ed) cream and
described itself as a tartare-like dish, I quit. When I Googled
"ceviche salmon UK" I got lots more hits, but still saw nothing that was
clearly using _raw_ salmo salar from the UK. I did see one using
"farmed salmon" (which is mostly Atlantic salmon "farmed" in the
Pacific...) which would be nothing like using wild salmo salar from the
UK and some using "smoked salmon" with no further description. Bottom
line for me is that I'll not be making any "salmon ceviche," and if I
want anything besides beef in my tartare, it would be tuna, but that's
not really "tartare," IMO.

And there are more than the worms/larvae as nasties in "salmon," so keep
that in mind when eating any raw "salmon" whatever the source.

TC,
R

Hi RD

see for example

http://tinyurl.com/5rlpbf

(Gordon Ramsay ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordon_Ramsay ) is as big
as it gets in the UK)

Ahhhh...OK. First, I know Gordon Ramsay and agree that he is among the
biggies in the UK right now (but is doing a God-awful TV thing in the US
called "Hell's Kitchen"), and he is a talented chef, but what this
recipe makes is nothing like what many would recognized as "ceviche" and
while I won't speak absolutely for Chuck/Conan, I feel confident in
saying that he would agree. If this conversation had never taken place
and I were served this and asked what I thought it might be called on a
menu, I'd say some form of salmon carpaccio or similar. The word
"ceviche" would never enter into my mind. I'd also feel that much of
the visible parasite danger would be minimized due to the construction
of the dish.

http://uktv.co.uk/food/recipe/aid/591238

This just sounds God-awful and is by no means "ceviche." Might I offer
"****ed-up Fishmess" as a more apt name. I have no idea who might
consider that **** "sophisticated," but drunken starving cats (as in
moggies) would seem a fair guess...and I suspect Ramsay would heave it
across the kitchen if it were brought to him...

and

http://www.spain4uk.co.uk/eats/marinated_salmon.htm

Now this one is interesting, mainly because of the website. I didn't
examine the site, but "ceviche" isn't a peninsular Spanish dish, it's
from the Americas, but escabeche, (Moorish) cured/pickled/marinated
fish, is Spanish, so I'm not sure of what they mean to convey with
"ceviche de salmon." As to what it would make, again, I don't see it as
"ceviche" - it looks much like the Ramsay dish in style.

'Salmon' in the UK means Salmo salar. Nearly all of it is farmed (not
in the pacific - in coastal regions of Scotland and Ireland


to the great detriment of wild salmon/seatrout runs)

Same in the Americas - farmed salmon is another idea that has gotten WAY
out of hand.

If I try it, and live, I'll let you know.

IMO, Gordon's recipe and the Spanish website recipe sound good (and safe
enough) - I'd try both without hesitation. The second, with the
"thickly sliced" salmon sounds horrible and potentially (minimally,
admittedly) dangerous, so I'd not be keen on trying it - YMMV.

TC,
R

Otherwise assume that the xperiment was fatal

Lazarus