A weird dilemma for Obama...

On Mon, 02 Jun 2008 05:50:29 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 1 Jun 2008 21:31:03 -0700 (PDT), riverman
wrote:

On Jun 2, 8:14*am, wrote:
Obama now says he plans to go, or is thinking about going, to Iraq. *He
has previously stated that he'd meet with Ahmedinejad, etc. *Here's the
dilemma as I see it: *Most members of the Iranian leadership, many Iraqi
leaders - in fact, a large part of the population of the Middle East,
among others - would seem to have a sacred duty (and a legal obligation)
to treat him as an apostate (and arguably, albeit a weak argument, as
one who denies the Christian and/or Jewish books as well, which is
equally-serious to being an apostate). *And he and many in US leadership
(mostly Dems, but some GOPers) are seemingly obligated, by statements
they have made, to allow them to treat him thus in that they feel the US
shouldn't interfere with or attempt to impose US "values" upon the laws
of sovereign nations. *The question would seem to hinge upon whether the
person or people in question follows the interpretation of the majority
or minority of Islamic scholars. The majority of Islamic scholars, um,
do not view apostates (or those who are held to deny the other books)
er, "favorably."

This is, IMO, no reflection on Obama as it would seem none of it - or at
least being an apostate - involves a choice he made or had any influence
upon (IOW, he could hardly pick his father). *But it is, again IMO, an
interesting, weird dilemma for him as well the non-Islamic world - if he
were elected Prez, AFAIK, he would be the first apostate leader of major
government.

And here's what could be the real "**** hits the fan" thing: what
happens when some radical pushes the issue with Khamenei, etc....

R

A similar (not identical, only similar) thing happened with Madeleine
Albright. She has Jewish ancestry, but denies any connection with the
Jewish faith; many in Israel were very unsure of how to respond to
that. AFAIK, no one in the Arab world cared at all, although they
certainly could have.

Likewise, the fringe of the muslim world has a lot to say about women
being in positions of authority...I don't see them having any problem
with meeting with Hilary, Madeleine or Condi.

Non sequitur. What "Arabs" might think of those who "deny any
connection with the Jewish faith" or women in positions of authority is
unrelated to what Islamic law and the Quran state about apostates. Obama
was born a Muslim and he actively and knowingly rejected Islam as an
adult - the debate over what Islamic law says about apostates is viable;
to debate his apostasy is pointless.

Without knowing MUCH more about Islam, and you can read that to mean
BEING Muslimm or at least being an expert on the ins and outs of
Islam, I don't think any hypotheticals you or I came up with about how
the Arab world would treat Obama have enough basis is reality to be
worth worrying about. This whole Apostate thing has become such a
political football that I'm surprised that you are posting it here as
if it was someting that just dawned on you.

His apostasy didn't "just dawn on me," but his recent leaving of his
church put another spin on it. To me, this could be (and should be)
trouble for him - why is he leaving it now? Oh, I know it's supposedly
all final-strawish because some guilty white liberal Catholic priest
went off the my brotha deep end, but his narrow wanna-be-black ass was
right there warming the oak through the same kind of schtick when it
made him look good locally.

For one (of many) counterpoints, read:
http://news.newamericamedia.org/news...f 900bedd1fc6

Not much of a counterpoint. They are absolutely correct about a few
Islamic scholars stating that it is their interpretation that apostasy
is a crime, but it is to be punished in the afterlife, by God, etc. So
what? There are US scholars who would state that it is their thinking
that many US drug laws are wrong, un-Constitutional, etc. Attempts at
using such with a court to get a possession with intent rap tossed ain't
gonna build a legal career.

IAC, I had not seen, read, or even heard of the referenced NYT piece
until I read your cite:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/12/op...12luttwak.html

but it seems more accurate than the one you cited. Further, what the
"Arab media" might or might not say about Obama is not conclusive, or
even material as to his apostasy, and citing that they haven't made an
issue of his apostasy has no bearing on the fact that under much of
Islamic law and for most "authorized interpreters," he is an apostate.
The "Arab media" doesn't make that call, clerics interpreting the Quran
do. And note the quote from your story,

"The Grand Imam of Al-Azhar...Tantantawi sic said, 'A Muslim who
renounced his faith or turned apostate should be left alone _as long as
he does not pose a threat or belittle Islam._'" Emp. add. (and BTW, it's
Tantawi).

I'll not attempt to define what "pose a threat" or "belittle" might mean
to whom, but I will say that the threshold for doing so doesn't seem to
be particularly high for some. And the rest of his position is "If
Muslims are forced to take action against the apostate, it should not be
because he or she had given up the faith but because he or she had
turned out to be an enemy or a threat to Islam." And for the record,
Tantawi does seem to tolerance and peaceful co-existence, with the
serious caveat that threats to Islam shall not be tolerated.

http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2007/857/eg9.htm

FWIW, it appears he supports death for Rushdie as an apostate blasphemer
and enemy of Islam. But since he is a single scholar in Egypt, I'm not
sure what he has to do with Iran, Iraq, Syria, a Palestinian state, etc.

TC,
R
--riverman

Richard, the whole apostasy thing is just another dumb GOP whispering
campaign.

http://religiondispatches.org/Gui/Co...Page=AR&Id=272

On Mon, 02 Jun 2008 07:24:31 -0500, George Cleveland
wrote:



Richard, the whole apostasy thing is just another dumb GOP whispering
campaign.

No, it isn't. Did you read my last cite:

http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2007/857/eg9.htm

http://religiondispatches.org/Gui/Co...Page=AR&Id=272

Again, I don't claim or think that _all_ Muslims will or should care one
way or the other about Obama and apostasy, but for anyone, including
scholars, to say it won't matter to _any_ is, simply put, bull****. I
would agree that a) Muslims of US citizenship should not let it
influence their vote, and b) that in the US, it goes without question
that his religious status is legally meaningless. OTOH, I think that
for Dems to try and play this off as some "vast right-wing conspiracy"
is a mistake.

TC,
R

On Jun 2, 9:19*pm, wrote:
On Mon, 02 Jun 2008 07:24:31 -0500, George Cleveland

wrote:

Richard, the whole apostasy thing is just another dumb GOP whispering
campaign.

No, it isn't. *Did you read my last cite:

http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2007/857/eg9.htm

http://religiondispatches.org/Gui/Co...Page=AR&Id=272

Again, I don't claim or think that _all_ Muslims will or should care one
way or the other about Obama and apostasy, but for anyone, including
scholars, to say it won't matter to _any_ is, simply put, bull****. *I
would agree that a) Muslims of US citizenship should not let it
influence their vote, and b) that in the US, it goes without question
that his religious status is legally meaningless. *OTOH, I think that
for Dems to try and play this off as some "vast right-wing conspiracy"
is a mistake.

TC,
R

Not a right-wing conspiracy, but certainly typical religio-centric
paranoia.

Wikipedia (religious textual icon that it is) pretty strongly implies
that you have to be post-puberty and renounce Islam to be considered
an Apostate. AFAIK, Obama left the muslim faith about the time that
most of us were about the age that we thought Easter was about
chocolate. I think that among the vast vast majority of muslim states,
modern diplomacy will supplant any religious dictates (such as it has
with meeting with unveiled women in authority, etc). Among the Islam
lunatic fringe, they don't need any reason to attempt something
extreme, and we have entire secret organizations whose sole purpose is
to prevent such events.

I don't think the US voters should let our elections be affected by
some fear that our President might be a Target. If we do, then we lose
control of our own elections, and they win. There are always similar
irrational concerns about candidates: people who did not know
Catholicism feared that JFK would be more allegiant to the Pope than
the Constitution, and I remember Yankees fearing that Jimmy Carter
would be more allegiant to the Stars and Bars than the Union.

--riverman

On Mon, 2 Jun 2008 07:41:28 -0700 (PDT), riverman
wrote:

On Jun 2, 9:19*pm, wrote:
On Mon, 02 Jun 2008 07:24:31 -0500, George Cleveland

wrote:

Richard, the whole apostasy thing is just another dumb GOP whispering
campaign.

No, it isn't. *Did you read my last cite:

http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2007/857/eg9.htm

http://religiondispatches.org/Gui/Co...Page=AR&Id=272

Again, I don't claim or think that _all_ Muslims will or should care one
way or the other about Obama and apostasy, but for anyone, including
scholars, to say it won't matter to _any_ is, simply put, bull****. *I
would agree that a) Muslims of US citizenship should not let it
influence their vote, and b) that in the US, it goes without question
that his religious status is legally meaningless. *OTOH, I think that
for Dems to try and play this off as some "vast right-wing conspiracy"
is a mistake.

TC,
R

Not a right-wing conspiracy, but certainly typical religio-centric
paranoia.

I'm sure what you mean to say, but if you think the issue of apostasy in
Islam is some new Obama-inspired thing, you're the one being, er,
"-centric."

Wikipedia (religious textual icon that it is) pretty strongly implies
that you have to be post-puberty and renounce Islam to be considered
an Apostate. AFAIK, Obama left the muslim faith about the time that
most of us were about the age that we thought Easter was about
chocolate.

Er, no, and no. Under the majority of Islamic scholars' interpretation,
he is an apostate - he was born Muslim. The only thing minority allows,
generally, is that he is not subject to punishment for an apostasy until
majority - there is no minority period of "free apostasies" prior to
majority. IAC, Obama apostatized as an adult, so whatever he may have
done as "a child" is no longer the controlling factor. And as to
beliefs about Easter (perhaps a Freudian choice, certainly an ironic
one...), given some of his supposed self-stated beliefs and ideas, he
obviously still believes in fairy tales...

I think that among the vast vast majority of muslim states,
modern diplomacy will supplant any religious dictates (such as it has
with meeting with unveiled women in authority, etc).

Why do you think that?

Among the Islam lunatic fringe,

Um, do you consider the vast majority of Muslims the "Islam lunatic
fringe?"

they don't need any reason to attempt something
extreme, and we have entire secret organizations whose sole purpose is
to prevent such events.

I don't think the US voters should let our elections be affected by
some fear that our President might be a Target. If we do, then we lose
control of our own elections, and they win. There are always similar
irrational concerns about candidates:

Like John McCain's age...? Seriously, I agree with the above,
generally. I don't suggest that anyone in the US should consider his
apostasy in voting (but I don't suggest that they don't, either), but I
find it another of life's little ironies, given the aforementioned
positions on other nations and US involvement...much like the whole
delegates-vs-"popular vote" mess Hillary finds herself in, with none
other than Terry McAuliffe as her head poot boy...

people who did not know Catholicism feared that JFK would be more
allegiant to the Pope than the Constitution,

Well, sure - anyone who had any insight into the Kennedys knew he'd
ignore 'em if possible and **** 'em both over if not for family and
"friends"...

and I remember Yankees
fearing that Jimmy Carter would be more allegiant to the Stars and Bars
than the Union.

Uh...

IAC, a whole lot of Yankees aren't all that bright, anyway...

TC,
R

--riverman

On Jun 3, 5:22*am, wrote:

IAC, a whole lot of Yankees aren't all that bright, anyway...



No argument from me on that one. And it extends both south and west.
And to the right and left.

But as far as the apostate thing; it seems to have a high degree of
swiftboating in it. And as for the rest of Islam, there is already a
precedent with a supposedly apostate leader (who even denounced Islam
after he was an adult), and there were no problems with his
denoucement of Islam.

From http://www.danielpipes.org/article/5286

"But would Muslims seeing Obama as a murtadd significantly affect an
Obama presidency? The only precedent to judge by is that of Carlos
Saúl Menem, the president of Argentina from 1989 to 1999. The son of
two Muslim Syrian immigrants and husband of another Syrian-Argentine,
Zulema Fátima Yoma, Menem converted to Roman Catholicism. His wife
said publicly that Menem left Islam for political reasons—because
Argentinean law until 1994 required the president of the country to be
a member of the Church. From a Muslim point of view, Menem's
conversion is worse than Obama's, having been done as an adult.
Nonetheless, Menem was not threatened or otherwise made to pay a price
for his change of religion, even during his trips to majority-Muslim
countries, Syria in particular."


Again, I'm not stating uncategorically that whether or not Obama is an
apostate, or whether or not that will be something to address is a non-
issue, but I'm quite comfortable that it IS a non-issue. And until I
hear even the slightest breath about it from the mouth of an actual
Muslim leader, I'm going to assume its just hypothetical mutterings
from a segment of American society with a ulterior motives.

--riverman

On Mon, 2 Jun 2008 17:39:11 -0700 (PDT), riverman
wrote:

On Jun 3, 5:22*am, wrote:

IAC, a whole lot of Yankees aren't all that bright, anyway...



No argument from me on that one. And it extends both south and west.
And to the right and left.

But as far as the apostate thing; it seems to have a high degree of
swiftboating in it. And as for the rest of Islam, there is already a
precedent with a supposedly apostate leader (who even denounced Islam
after he was an adult), and there were no problems with his
denoucement of Islam.

From http://www.danielpipes.org/article/5286

"But would Muslims seeing Obama as a murtadd significantly affect an
Obama presidency? The only precedent to judge by is that of Carlos
Saúl Menem, the president of Argentina from 1989 to 1999. The son of
two Muslim Syrian immigrants and husband of another Syrian-Argentine,
Zulema Fátima Yoma, Menem converted to Roman Catholicism. His wife
said publicly that Menem left Islam for political reasons—because
Argentinean law until 1994 required the president of the country to be
a member of the Church. From a Muslim point of view, Menem's
conversion is worse than Obama's, having been done as an adult.
Nonetheless, Menem was not threatened or otherwise made to pay a price
for his change of religion, even during his trips to majority-Muslim
countries, Syria in particular."

Er, OK...are you suggesting Obama's "conversion" to Christianity was
just a bunch of politically-motivated bull**** and that he intends to
lean toward Muslim/Arab interests, be anti-Semitic, and be generally
corrupt...?

IAC, Menem was a pal of Bush 41 and we all know that the Bushes and the
Saudi royal family are in total cahoots on everything from oil to
apostasy...IOW, Menem didn't really "convert" - they got some ex-Nazis
in on it and the Pope was in on it, too...he's a Freemason Bones and
Skuller. Anyways, for those in the inner circle, "religion" doesn't
really matter, anyway...

Are you serious? The guy who was president of Argentina in the 80s?
What's next - the Grand Duke of Luxembourg is Hindu...?

Oh, and whoever wrote the quote above might have been served by doing a
little research into the whole matter...


Again, I'm not stating uncategorically that whether or not Obama is an
apostate, or whether or not that will be something to address is a non-
issue, but I'm quite comfortable that it IS a non-issue. And until I
hear even the slightest breath about it from the mouth of an actual
Muslim leader, I'm going to assume its just hypothetical mutterings
from a segment of American society with a ulterior motives.

What segment would that be and what do you imagine those "ulterior
motives" to be?

TC,
R

--riverman

On Jun 4, 7:46*pm, wrote:

Er, OK...are you suggesting Obama's "conversion" to Christianity was
just a bunch of politically-motivated bull**** and that he intends to
lean toward Muslim/Arab interests, be anti-Semitic, and be generally
corrupt...? *


No, of course not. I'm looking for any precedent for a national leader
who is at least as clearly definable as 'apostate' as Obama, and
seeing what the reaction to him was. As it looks, I cannot find anyone
of very high profile, but Menem is, at least, a much more of a clear-
cut case, and in a worse way. And the reaction to his being Apostate
was minimal, so it makes me think that there isn't much (if any)
evidence that Obama's alleged apostacy will be much of an issue. Or,
at least that it will precipitate any new problems among those who
don't already have problems dealing with the US.

In the absence of any more relevant precedent, I'm going to assume
that its a non-issue. Do you have any reason to think that is WILL be
an issue? Or do you want to move on to accusing Obama of Masticating
at the table, being a shameless Extrovert, Emulating older kids, being
a public Thesbian, a flagrant Heterosexual, having relatives with
Degenerate Diseases, subscribing to Phonographic Magazines and being
seen Discoursing with Prosyletes on church grounds?

--riverman