Hint for the day

On Mar 17, 5:22*am, jeff wrote:
DaveS wrote:
... based on their need to
protect a few monsters that they personally would be too gutless to
guard, or even have the stomach to look at a photo of the victims, and
parade their hypocracy as if they were morally superior.

though i concede enough experience with such comments to justify being
numbed to them, i still feel a fresh and painful surprise at statements
like yours... notwithstanding your heroic offer to use a baseball bat to
impose the death penalty personally and on a volunteer basis. *i suppose
you would require your "monster" to be strapped to the gurney as you
accomplished your public service, or will you do it while he sleeps?

moral superiority?? *"hypocracy" [sic]?? *...

jeff

Jeff If it were just me I would want him down on his knees, head
bowed, arms strapped and blindfolded, in a dry field. On a gurney you
would be smashing his head into the canvass and the gurney would be
easily and needlessly damaged by the bat. Heroic? No, but some people
just need killing.

I would prefer if it were done with lethal injection, electric chair,
gas, hanging, decapitation or firing squad. And I feel that if one
believes in capital punishment for the worse murderers, one should be
willing, if capable, of carrying out the execution. But I recognize
that many people compartmentalize the effects of their choices and
beliefs.

Just curious but how do you think these kinds of murderers should be
prevented from continued killing of other prisoners and guards in
prison during the duration of their "life" sentences? And when they
kill again in prison, what punishment would you favor?

Dave

On Mar 17, 2:42*am, "Tom Littleton" wrote:
SNIP

I think your response probably reflects your beliefs and assumptions.
I could question whether our experiences are comparable but I doubt
that would change minds. But your last comment . . .

". . . you cite a case where the perpetrator is clearly mentally
disturbed. Those
individuals are not deterred by the thought of a death penalty IN THE
LEAST. You seem utterly clueless of this fact, and it is a fact."

And you know this "fact" how?

Dave

"DaveS" wrote in message
...
Just curious but how do you think these kinds of murderers should be
prevented from continued killing of other prisoners and guards in
prison during the duration of their "life" sentences? And when they
kill again in prison, what punishment would you favor?

why do you return to this canard about repeat murderers in the prison
system, especially of guards? We haven't had a prison guard, to my
knowledge, done in by a lifer here in PA for quite some time. And, for this,
you are willing to
cheerlead for capital punishment BEFORE such occurs??
Truly bizarre.
Tom

"DaveS" wrote in message
...
On Mar 17, 2:42 am, "Tom Littleton" wrote:
Those
individuals are not deterred by the thought of a death penalty IN THE
LEAST. You seem utterly clueless of this fact, and it is a fact."

And you know this "fact" how?


I could cite a couple life experiences, but won't. Still, it should be
pretty obvious that someone in the mental state to commit the sort of crime
you are discussing is in his own twisted world. The thoughts possessing him,
and I think any competent psychologist would back me up on this, override
any consideration of right or wrong, let alone potential punishment. So, the
suggestion of capital punishment to deter such individuals is laughable.
Sure, you can deter drug use/sales with capital punishment(see: numerous
Islamic nations), you could well have curbed corporate excess with capital
punishment, if you wanted to legislate in that direction. But, any deterrent
effect on psycopaths has to be pretty slim. As I said earlier, I sat and
pondered your original post for a few days, as it seemed truly bizarre and
sort of out of character for you.
I respond now because you actual believe this garbage you spew......
Tom

DaveS wrote:
On Mar 17, 5:22 am, jeff wrote:
DaveS wrote:
... based on their need to
protect a few monsters that they personally would be too gutless to
guard, or even have the stomach to look at a photo of the victims, and
parade their hypocracy as if they were morally superior.
though i concede enough experience with such comments to justify being
numbed to them, i still feel a fresh and painful surprise at statements
like yours... notwithstanding your heroic offer to use a baseball bat to
impose the death penalty personally and on a volunteer basis. i suppose
you would require your "monster" to be strapped to the gurney as you
accomplished your public service, or will you do it while he sleeps?

moral superiority?? "hypocracy" [sic]?? ...

jeff

Jeff If it were just me I would want him down on his knees, head
bowed, arms strapped and blindfolded, in a dry field. On a gurney you
would be smashing his head into the canvass and the gurney would be
easily and needlessly damaged by the bat. Heroic? No, but some people
just need killing.

I would prefer if it were done with lethal injection, electric chair,
gas, hanging, decapitation or firing squad. And I feel that if one
believes in capital punishment for the worse murderers, one should be
willing, if capable, of carrying out the execution. But I recognize
that many people compartmentalize the effects of their choices and
beliefs.

Just curious but how do you think these kinds of murderers should be
prevented from continued killing of other prisoners and guards in
prison during the duration of their "life" sentences? And when they
kill again in prison, what punishment would you favor?

Dave


as you know, i don't believe in capital punishment. i'm in the minority.
fortunately, you are also.

undoubtedly, your monster will be executed...but only after a review of
articulated legal issues in a deliberative process. you not only want
to club him to death, you want to kill due process. you want to do away
with the very legal tensions that distinguish our judicial
system...tensions that led to legal and social reforms that you probably
approve of. there were "bat wielders" in those dry fields too...

if one accepts the position capital punishment is neither morally nor
logically justified, then you do as is done in most things...you do your
best. you put the "monsters" in places and circumstances that will
prevent such killings. solitary confinement and chains work remarkably
well when prudently administered.

frankly, many believe the jeopardy created by such folks in the prison
system is part of the "punishment" of incarcerations. i suspect, solely
from your past statements, you are among them. in any event, prisons are
not normal environments for anyone to be in.

how do you predict murder? how do you prevent murder? ...preemptive
strikes?

i'm curious, and don't know the answer - in the past 30 years, what are
the numbers of guards killed by prisoners in us prisons? ...inmates
killed? the circumstances that led to the killing? of those, how many of
the prisoners were incarcerated for murder at the time they killed a
prison guard or other inmate? what are the reported numbers for
prisoners abused by guards, killed by guards? how many of those inmates
were incarcerated for murder?

how do you determine someone is a "monster" deserving of a snedekering?

....if you feel justified and proper in clubbing another human being to
death - one who is "down on his [or her] knees, head bowed, arms
strapped and blindfolded in a dry field" - what really distinguishes you
from the "monster"? moral superiority???

jeff

On Mar 17, 7:00*pm, jeff wrote:
DaveS wrote:
On Mar 17, 5:22 am, jeff wrote:
DaveS wrote:
... based on their need to
protect a few monsters that they personally would be too gutless to
guard, or even have the stomach to look at a photo of the victims, and
parade their hypocracy as if they were morally superior.
though i concede enough experience with such comments to justify being
numbed to them, i still feel a fresh and painful surprise at statements
like yours... notwithstanding your heroic offer to use a baseball bat to
impose the death penalty personally and on a volunteer basis. *i suppose
you would require your "monster" to be strapped to the gurney as you
accomplished your public service, or will you do it while he sleeps?

moral superiority?? *"hypocracy" [sic]?? *...

jeff

Jeff If it were just me I would want him down on his knees, head
bowed, arms strapped and blindfolded, in a dry field. On a gurney you
would be smashing his head into the canvass and the gurney would be
easily and needlessly damaged by the bat. Heroic? No, but some people
just need killing.

I would prefer if it were done with lethal injection, electric chair,
gas, hanging, decapitation or firing squad. And I feel that if one
believes in capital punishment for the worse murderers, one should be
willing, if capable, of carrying out the execution. But I recognize
that many people compartmentalize the effects of their choices and
beliefs.

Just curious but how do you think these kinds of murderers should be
prevented from continued killing of other prisoners and guards in
prison during the duration of their "life" sentences? And when they
kill again in prison, what punishment would you favor?

Dave

as you know, i don't believe in capital punishment. i'm in the minority.
* fortunately, you are also.

undoubtedly, your monster will be executed...but only after a review of
articulated legal issues in a deliberative process. *you not only want
to club him to death, you want to kill due process. you want to do away
with the very legal tensions that distinguish our judicial
system...tensions that led to legal and social reforms that you probably
approve of. there were "bat wielders" in those dry fields too...

if one accepts the position capital punishment is neither morally nor
logically justified, then you do as is done in most things...you do your
best. *you put the "monsters" in places and circumstances that will
prevent such killings. solitary confinement and chains work remarkably
well when prudently administered.

frankly, many believe the jeopardy created by such folks in the prison
system is part of the "punishment" of incarcerations. i suspect, solely
from your past statements, you are among them. in any event, prisons are
not normal environments for anyone to be in.

how do you predict murder? how do you prevent murder? ...preemptive
strikes?

i'm curious, and don't know the answer - in the past 30 years, what are
the numbers of guards killed by prisoners in us prisons? ...inmates
killed? the circumstances that led to the killing? of those, how many of
the prisoners were incarcerated for murder at the time they killed a
prison guard or other inmate? what are the reported numbers for
prisoners abused by guards, killed by guards? how many of those inmates
were incarcerated for murder?

how do you determine someone is a "monster" deserving of a snedekering?

...if you feel justified and proper in clubbing another human being to
death - one who is "down on his [or her] knees, head bowed, arms
strapped and blindfolded in a dry field" -

jeff- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Jeff I will ignore the stuff like "what really distinguishes you
from the "monster"? moral superiority???" I understand that it is almost a necessity to discount the practical safety of others to sustain such a radical position. I am focusing and conveying a position based on the practical considerations of keeping service providers alive and effective in an environment in which, not only active killers, but all sorts of future killers (preferable term for violent criminals who just have not killed their first known victim yet) . . . mix freely with the general, mostly lower income and working class, population. Only folks whose safety is generally assured by the police would raise and equate the violent prisoner's situation with that of the correction's staff. And its not that prisoner abuse does not occur, it does, but equating these things is an debater's canard.

Perhaps the differences between our perspectives has to do with the
venues of our professional lives. Lawyers, at least from what I have
seen, deal with criminals and murderers primarily in environments
closely protected by other professions. For example, courtrooms,
visiting rooms etc.. Frankly, in 40 years of professional work in
human services I have never seen an attorney serving in any other
capacity, pro or pro bono, in the human services system, than as a
lawyer. I had never seen them in any other mode than a quick walk thru
visit, or sitting on a "blue ribbon" panel jawing. The one exception
is a kid lawyer I saw grow up, who picked up and is running an
umbrella HS org right into the successful "black." So there must be a
few more exceptions but I think my 40 year observation in 40+ states
has some worth.

For years I was an automatic anti capital punishment go-along-er. But
over time I saw just how much fear of criminal violence affected staff
and clients of all the human service systems. And how much that fear
was discounted by some perhaps well meaning, but not at risk,
managers, politicians and sorry, attorneys. In doing post mortems of
failed programs I found that often a common theme was criminal
violence, most often to clients by criminal clients, by family, and
violence to staff, rape, assault and murder. I found that the MOST
frequent reason for "health" dropouts from programs was violence in
women's and youth serving occupational training programs. I saw
programs helpless to keep out violent criminals levered by the courts
into programs in plea bargains. Yet no official termination form from
any employment and training agency I ever saw, under Dems or Repubs,
ever had a dropout box to check for a beaten or murdered kid or
mother. Only when I dug into the counseling files, talked to the
people on the line did the reality sink in.

Then you start to understand the texture of things, the difference
between most garden variety murderers and the specials; the ones who
everyone in a venue fear, the ones who get away, get away, get away,
smirking, escalating etc etc, until, all too infrequently they
perpetuate horrors too gross to suppress in the courtroom. And then,
with luck they get a death sentence. And then its just a bit much to
accept some pat little lecturette on the sanctity of all life. I have
learned from direct observation of reality that the lives of the poor
and the powerless and the weak can be very cheap.

So, yep, I would hope, that with some stomach calming balm, I could
rise to the occasion, and carry out a quick execution of this
particular monster, if it came down to me doing it, or this necessary
civic act not getting done. And I personally would use a Louisville
Slugger. Someone else might feel more comfortable using a gun.

Dave

On Mar 17, 6:26*pm, "Tom Littleton" wrote:
"DaveS" wrote in message

...
On Mar 17, 2:42 am, "Tom Littleton" wrote:
Those
individuals are not deterred by the thought of a death penalty IN THE
LEAST. You seem utterly clueless of this fact, and it is a fact."

And you know this "fact" how?

I could cite a couple life experiences, but won't. Still, it should be
pretty obvious that someone in the mental state to commit the sort of crime
you are discussing is in his own twisted world. The thoughts possessing him,
and I think any competent psychologist would back me up on this, override
any consideration of right or wrong, let alone potential punishment. So, the
suggestion of *capital punishment to deter such individuals is laughable.
Sure, you can deter drug use/sales with capital punishment(see: numerous
Islamic nations), you could well have curbed corporate excess with capital
punishment, if you wanted to legislate in that direction. But, any deterrent
effect on psycopaths has to be pretty slim. *As I said earlier, I sat and
pondered your original post for a few days, as it seemed truly bizarre and
sort of out of character for you.
I respond now because you actual believe this garbage you spew......
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *Tom

Sorry you had to say "I respond now because you actual believe this
garbage you spew......".
But I do believe what I said is a reasonable approximation of what I
think and what I have learned and experienced.

On your reference to "competent psychologist" (s) backing you up. For
one, it is often a psychiatrist in the "expert" witness box, and
secondly, would that be prosecution or defence paid "competent"
psychologists and psychiatrists?
And the standard is often "knowing right from wrong."

Dave
My 401k thinks you ideas on extending the death penalty might have
some merit. ;-))

"DaveS" wrote in message
...
Sorry you had to say "I respond now because you actual believe this
garbage you spew......".
But I do believe what I said is a reasonable approximation of what I
think and what I have learned and experienced.

Sorry I did have to, but when you are advocating taking law into your own
hands with a Louisville Slugger, it's garbage. And, I suspect gutless
garbage, as I would bet dollars to donuts you wouldn't have a chance unless
you 'monster' was hogtied and padlocked(by others) in advance for you.

My 401k thinks you ideas on extending the death penalty might have
some merit. ;-))

I hope you, after a quick chuckle, understood my point...I was
differentiating between people who understand a deterrent and those who
won't respond whatsoever.
Tom

DaveS wrote:
On Mar 17, 7:00 pm, jeff wrote:
DaveS wrote:
On Mar 17, 5:22 am, jeff wrote:
DaveS wrote:
... based on their need to
protect a few monsters that they personally would be too gutless to
guard, or even have the stomach to look at a photo of the victims, and
parade their hypocracy as if they were morally superior.
though i concede enough experience with such comments to justify being
numbed to them, i still feel a fresh and painful surprise at statements
like yours... notwithstanding your heroic offer to use a baseball bat to
impose the death penalty personally and on a volunteer basis. i suppose
you would require your "monster" to be strapped to the gurney as you
accomplished your public service, or will you do it while he sleeps?
moral superiority?? "hypocracy" [sic]?? ...
jeff
Jeff If it were just me I would want him down on his knees, head
bowed, arms strapped and blindfolded, in a dry field. On a gurney you
would be smashing his head into the canvass and the gurney would be
easily and needlessly damaged by the bat. Heroic? No, but some people
just need killing.
I would prefer if it were done with lethal injection, electric chair,
gas, hanging, decapitation or firing squad. And I feel that if one
believes in capital punishment for the worse murderers, one should be
willing, if capable, of carrying out the execution. But I recognize
that many people compartmentalize the effects of their choices and
beliefs.
Just curious but how do you think these kinds of murderers should be
prevented from continued killing of other prisoners and guards in
prison during the duration of their "life" sentences? And when they
kill again in prison, what punishment would you favor?
Dave
as you know, i don't believe in capital punishment. i'm in the minority.
fortunately, you are also.

undoubtedly, your monster will be executed...but only after a review of
articulated legal issues in a deliberative process. you not only want
to club him to death, you want to kill due process. you want to do away
with the very legal tensions that distinguish our judicial
system...tensions that led to legal and social reforms that you probably
approve of. there were "bat wielders" in those dry fields too...

if one accepts the position capital punishment is neither morally nor
logically justified, then you do as is done in most things...you do your
best. you put the "monsters" in places and circumstances that will
prevent such killings. solitary confinement and chains work remarkably
well when prudently administered.

frankly, many believe the jeopardy created by such folks in the prison
system is part of the "punishment" of incarcerations. i suspect, solely
from your past statements, you are among them. in any event, prisons are
not normal environments for anyone to be in.

how do you predict murder? how do you prevent murder? ...preemptive
strikes?

i'm curious, and don't know the answer - in the past 30 years, what are
the numbers of guards killed by prisoners in us prisons? ...inmates
killed? the circumstances that led to the killing? of those, how many of
the prisoners were incarcerated for murder at the time they killed a
prison guard or other inmate? what are the reported numbers for
prisoners abused by guards, killed by guards? how many of those inmates
were incarcerated for murder?

how do you determine someone is a "monster" deserving of a snedekering?

...if you feel justified and proper in clubbing another human being to
death - one who is "down on his [or her] knees, head bowed, arms
strapped and blindfolded in a dry field" -

jeff- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Jeff I will ignore the stuff like "what really distinguishes you
from the "monster"? moral superiority???" I understand that it is almost a necessity to discount the practical safety of others to sustain such a radical position. I am focusing and conveying a position based on the practical considerations of keeping service providers alive and effective in an environment in which, not only active killers, but all sorts of future killers (preferable term for violent criminals who just have not killed their first known victim yet) . . . mix freely with the general, mostly lower income and working class, population. Only folks whose safety is generally assured by the police would raise and equate the violent prisoner's situation with that of the correction's staff. And its not that prisoner abuse does not occur, it does, but equating these things is an debater's canard.

Perhaps the differences between our perspectives has to do with the
venues of our professional lives. Lawyers, at least from what I have
seen, deal with criminals and murderers primarily in environments
closely protected by other professions. For example, courtrooms,
visiting rooms etc.. Frankly, in 40 years of professional work in
human services I have never seen an attorney serving in any other
capacity, pro or pro bono, in the human services system, than as a
lawyer. I had never seen them in any other mode than a quick walk thru
visit, or sitting on a "blue ribbon" panel jawing. The one exception
is a kid lawyer I saw grow up, who picked up and is running an
umbrella HS org right into the successful "black." So there must be a
few more exceptions but I think my 40 year observation in 40+ states
has some worth.

For years I was an automatic anti capital punishment go-along-er. But
over time I saw just how much fear of criminal violence affected staff
and clients of all the human service systems. And how much that fear
was discounted by some perhaps well meaning, but not at risk,
managers, politicians and sorry, attorneys. In doing post mortems of
failed programs I found that often a common theme was criminal
violence, most often to clients by criminal clients, by family, and
violence to staff, rape, assault and murder. I found that the MOST
frequent reason for "health" dropouts from programs was violence in
women's and youth serving occupational training programs. I saw
programs helpless to keep out violent criminals levered by the courts
into programs in plea bargains. Yet no official termination form from
any employment and training agency I ever saw, under Dems or Repubs,
ever had a dropout box to check for a beaten or murdered kid or
mother. Only when I dug into the counseling files, talked to the
people on the line did the reality sink in.

Then you start to understand the texture of things, the difference
between most garden variety murderers and the specials; the ones who
everyone in a venue fear, the ones who get away, get away, get away,
smirking, escalating etc etc, until, all too infrequently they
perpetuate horrors too gross to suppress in the courtroom. And then,
with luck they get a death sentence. And then its just a bit much to
accept some pat little lecturette on the sanctity of all life. I have
learned from direct observation of reality that the lives of the poor
and the powerless and the weak can be very cheap.

So, yep, I would hope, that with some stomach calming balm, I could
rise to the occasion, and carry out a quick execution of this
particular monster, if it came down to me doing it, or this necessary
civic act not getting done. And I personally would use a Louisville
Slugger. Someone else might feel more comfortable using a gun.

Dave


Dave - the "dry field" clubbing speaks of a raw emotion similar to that
of a murderer - civic duty notwithstanding. i doubt i'll ever understand
it. still, i try to respect and consider the principled arguments of
those who think capital punishment acceptable. It's interesting to me
how people explain or justify killing.

jeff

On Mar 18, 2:54*pm, "Tom Littleton" wrote:
"DaveS" wrote in message

...
Sorry you had to say "I respond now because you actual believe this
garbage you spew......".
But I do believe what I said is a reasonable approximation of what I
think and what I have learned and experienced.

Sorry I did have to, but when you are advocating taking law into your own
hands with a Louisville Slugger, it's garbage. And, I suspect gutless
garbage, as I would bet dollars to donuts you wouldn't have a chance unless
you 'monster' was hogtied and padlocked(by others) in advance for you.

My 401k thinks you ideas on extending the death penalty might have
some merit. ;-))

I hope you, after a quick chuckle, understood my point...I was
differentiating between people who understand a deterrent and those who
won't respond whatsoever.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *Tom

OK so let me see: Offering to be the reluctant executioner of a
criminal convicted by a jury of aggravated murder (34 hours of torture
etc etc), after almost 2 decades of unsuccessful appeals, who has been
sentenced to death under the laws of an American state, in a country
that has found capital punishment Constitutional, is "gutless"
because I "wouldn't have a chance unless you(sic) monster was
hogtied?"

Tom, let me explain, the reason the man is being executed involved his
extensive experience in harming other people. That is his skill set.
Maybe you would like these professional killers to be given a
"fighting" chance to avoid the sentence? Maybe give him a bat or a
knife like he used to torture and slice his victim? Interesting. But
you would not want to work guarding them I presume, nor do you want to
see his kind during the rest of their lives, you don't want to execute
them, you don't want the State to execute them, you would not want me
or anyone else to carry out the lawful sentence, I am gutless because
I wouldn't give him a fair opportunity to kill me, and you doubt this
kind continue to harm others in prison because that is done by
"gangs." That's quite a bigger deadlock of thinking than I can even
attempt to navigate. So I will just try to back away from this thread,
scratch my head and move on.

Is your attitude reflective of the general level of public support in
Pennsylvania for the challenges of correction's staff and management?
I know Pennsylvania has had some problems with guards going over the
line, and judges selling young prisoners to private prisons for a
kickback. Hopefully Pennsylvania will work it out. Meanwhile I want
the State of Washington to shorten the life of Cal Brown and a couple
of others who have shortened other's lives in particularly horrific
ways.

Dave