OT It could be, it might be, it is !!!

Richard Pearson wrote:

I followed the thread. KF is just spouting all the party line drivel as
you seem to be. You're both fully and completely saturated with the
same bull****.

Get a life and wake up.

Another right-wing whackjob crawls out of the woodwork to spout the
same old party line bull****. Don't worry, be happy, the economy is
OK, it will fix itself, keep the government out of the way and let
the market work its magic like it always does. There's nothing to
see here, move along.

Totally and hopelessly clueless.

--
Ken Fortenberry

wrote in message
...
What I've said is basically the opposite - that the bitching
from "the public" is mostly about their own situation, and it is a
situation
that they created, good or bad, for themselves.

sort of my point. IMO, looking to 'blame' anyone is pointless. At all
levels, we are merely dealing with human nature. Removing all regulatory
teeth that kept human nature in check, on the borrowing, lending, banking
and underwriting ends of things made the current mess almost a foregone
conclusion.


Unfortunately, the repeated demands of the public to "FIX IT NOW!!!"
(meaning
"make me comfortable without requiring me to work for it") could make
things
much, much worse

agreed. Completely.

and it appears that many leaders, from Obama on down,
including both sides of the Congressional aisle, are fully prepared listen
to
and answer the selfish public demand in an attempt to secure their place
at the
trough for a few more years.

I'm not so sure I read Obama's words the same way you do, although I suspect
your view of Congress is more or less accurate.
Tom

Tom Littleton wrote:
wrote:
Unfortunately, the repeated demands of the public to "FIX IT NOW!!!"
(meaning "make me comfortable without requiring me to work for it")
could make things much, much worse

agreed. Completely.

Absolute absurdity. And bull**** to boot. "Fix it now" means
"I want a job that doesn't require me to wear a paper hat and
ask if you want fries with that."

And what is absolutely guaranteed to make things worse is *NOT*
fixing it *NOW* !

--
Ken Fortenberry

On Apr 17, 8:55*am, wrote:

Rick
You apparently live in a different bubble that I do. Name names?
Sorry, that would hurt people who I care about, but if you do not know
people who were a part of what turned out to be a big hustle, your
social and business circles are lots narrower than I assumed. Here are
just 4 of a range of examples taken from personal experience/knowledge
(with very little disguise), of people who were parts of the pack at 4
different levels.

1, A well meaning VP of a very large nation wide mortgage company,
offering neighbors the services of a very compliant appraiser to goose
up considerably the "valuation" of a property way over even the bubble
market values.

2. A younger person, running a 12 station phonebank "hothouse"
operation, pushing home equity loans in arguably vulnerable
neighborhoods, in conjunction with "home improvement" scammers, as a
"cut-out" for nominally respectable banks.

3. A person with no financial education or experience, set up as a
"financial advisor" at a nominally respectable bank.

4. An unlicensed person doing compliant loan appraisals for an estate
law firm in a major Florida metro. She once had a cert to "manage
condo associations" but as I recall even that was expired.

In half of these situations the visible consumption levels were enough
to raise eyebrows considerably, even in a very affluent area full of
software and biotech millionaires.

A typical set up for the "nominally respectable" banks was to create
"sub prime" subsidiaries, then to use outfits like #2 above, to rope
in groups of loans, then sell them on in packages up stream to
securitizers etc. . WAMU had at least one sub like this that I know
of, and even Sears was playing that game, until the bad publicity it
got when the linkage was exposed and Sears was outed for practices
that preyed on elderly minorities primarily in the Midwest. I have
heard, but do not know for a fact, that all of the North Carolina
based big boy banks played that game at one time or another in recent
years.

Bottonline, there were ****ers and ****ees. And it is disingenuous to
pretend that in the absence of regulations it is not relatively easy
for even people with normal ethics, to become part of the predatory
system that lives on the blood of "Joe Walmart." Like the Enron
employees, they were "just doing their job."Then there are others who
seriously believe that preying on others is their right, almost duty,
as a superior being. With a few drinks some of these will tell you
that they see themselves as human wolves, helping evolution weed out
the weak. These last, and generations of selfish teens, made Ayn Rand
a best selling author.

Dave
Which former Fed Reserve Chairman is a follower of Ayn Rand?

On Fri, 17 Apr 2009 15:51:47 -0700 (PDT), DaveS wrote:

On Apr 17, 8:55*am, wrote:

Rick
You apparently live in a different bubble that I do. Name names?
Sorry, that would hurt people who I care about, but if you do not know
people who were a part of what turned out to be a big hustle, your
social and business circles are lots narrower than I assumed. Here are
just 4 of a range of examples taken from personal experience/knowledge
(with very little disguise), of people who were parts of the pack at 4
different levels.

1, A well meaning VP of a very large nation wide mortgage company,
offering neighbors the services of a very compliant appraiser to goose
up considerably the "valuation" of a property way over even the bubble
market values.

How well-meaning could he be, what with forcing his neighbors to defraud
lenders...? And what was the VP of a very large nation wide mortgage company
doing living in, um, "an arguably vulnerable neighborhood?"

2. A younger person, running a 12 station phonebank "hothouse"
operation, pushing home equity loans in arguably vulnerable
neighborhoods, in conjunction with "home improvement" scammers, as a
"cut-out" for nominally respectable banks.

Ah, yes, the dreaded home equity loan pusher... Another diabolical criminal,
forcing people to sign things....and he must have been especially good, doing it
from a phone bank...

3. A person with no financial education or experience, set up as a
"financial advisor" at a nominally respectable bank.

Well, ****, you shouldn't have taken the job...

4. An unlicensed person doing compliant loan appraisals for an estate
law firm in a major Florida metro. She once had a cert to "manage
condo associations" but as I recall even that was expired.

So she was, what, running out randomly appraising properties, hoping someone
would happen to drop in with a contract on those properties...?

In half of these situations the visible consumption levels were enough
to raise eyebrows considerably, even in a very affluent area full of
software and biotech millionaires.

Yeah, they all sound like the real, er, "masters of the universe" types.
Frankly, after your failing to turn in the Border Patrol slave-runner, I think
you owe it to the US to turn these powerful criminals, who are undoubtedly
responsible for the current economic "mess," over to the proper authorities...

In reality, the latter three sound like "Joe Wal Mart" types (the VP could be,
too) that simply chose to prey on their fellow citizen. As for the VP, he and
his neighbors sound like typical middle-class folks who want to skirt things
until the **** hits the fan, and then, they want to blame it on someone else. So
yeah, they ought to be allowed to fail.

A typical set up for the "nominally respectable" banks was to create
"sub prime" subsidiaries, then to use outfits like #2 above, to rope
in groups of loans, then sell them on in packages up stream to
securitizers etc. . WAMU had at least one sub like this that I know
of, and even Sears was playing that game, until the bad publicity it
got when the linkage was exposed and Sears was outed for practices
that preyed on elderly minorities primarily in the Midwest. I have
heard, but do not know for a fact, that all of the North Carolina
based big boy banks played that game at one time or another in recent
years.

Bottonline, there were ****ers and ****ees. And it is disingenuous to
pretend that in the absence of regulations it is not relatively easy
for even people with normal ethics, to become part of the predatory
system that lives on the blood of "Joe Walmart."

It is? Why? If people with "normal ethics" don't use 'em (absurdity of that
premise aside...), how do they have them?

Like the Enron
employees, they were "just doing their job."Then there are others who
seriously believe that preying on others is their right, almost duty,
as a superior being. With a few drinks some of these will tell you
that they see themselves as human wolves, helping evolution weed out
the weak. These last, and generations of selfish teens, made Ayn Rand
a best selling author.

It makes no difference if every bank in the world sets up a "screw everybody
that can fog up a mirror" department and hires the Hell's Banditos to manage
them. Until someone voluntarily signs papers to buy a house they can't afford
or signs papers to receive money that they can't afford to pay back, it doesn't
do the banks much good. And to say some bank somehow "tricked" them into
thinking that they could afford it is utter nonsense. If that were the case,
they would have been "tricked" into all sorts of other schemes repeatedly
throughout their lives. And yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, someone knows of a little
old lady who actually did get conned. And I'd acknowledge that such can, did,
and does occasionally happen, but it is a rare thing, relative to the current
situation.

HTH,
R
Dave
Which former Fed Reserve Chairman is a follower of Ayn Rand?

As I've said in the past, I'm no fan of Greenspan, and if "we" must have a
single person to blame, he's as good a choice as any, but even heaping him with
a double portion still leaves quite a load to spread around...

"Ken Fortenberry" wrote in message
...
Absolute absurdity. And bull**** to boot. "Fix it now" means
"I want a job that doesn't require me to wear a paper hat and
ask if you want fries with that."

and how is such a job created.....now? Sure, you can put construction
tradesmen to work, and keep suppliers of materials in their jobs, but if
someone has lost a job in finance, automaking, etc, where is this new,
non-service job going to come from overnight. Obama is right to stress the
need to re-think our whole economic engine, and that is not an overnight
approach.

Tom

wrote in message
...
It makes no difference if every bank in the world sets up a "screw
everybody
that can fog up a mirror" department and hires the Hell's Banditos to
manage
them. Until someone voluntarily signs papers to buy a house they can't
afford
or signs papers to receive money that they can't afford to pay back, it
doesn't
do the banks much good. And to say some bank somehow "tricked" them into
thinking that they could afford it is utter nonsense.

Perhaps, this is the justified end-result of the dumbing down of America. To
think that some woman over the phone(to use one of Dave's brilliant
examples) was able to gull folks into signing written contracts for anything
is near-astounding! Ask anyone of our parent's generation, of most any
educational background, if they would entertain such an idea and the vast
majority would look at you as if you had three heads. If a person hasn't
gotten the idea, by adulthood, that you better read the fine print before
signing anything, then heaven help them. And, while it is completely
derelict and reprehensible to prey on those dumb enough to be victimized,
the 'victims' do bear some responsibility. Like any street con, it is
essential that the mark does his/herself in by his/her own greed and
ignorance.


If that were the case,
they would have been "tricked" into all sorts of other schemes repeatedly
throughout their lives. And yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, someone knows of a
little
old lady who actually did get conned. And I'd acknowledge that such can,
did,
and does occasionally happen, but it is a rare thing, relative to the
current
situation.

HTH,
R
Dave
Which former Fed Reserve Chairman is a follower of Ayn Rand?

As I've said in the past, I'm no fan of Greenspan, and if "we" must have a
single person to blame, he's as good a choice as any, but even heaping him
with
a double portion still leaves quite a load to spread around...

Tom Littleton wrote:
"Ken Fortenberry" wrote:
Absolute absurdity. And bull**** to boot. "Fix it now" means
"I want a job that doesn't require me to wear a paper hat and
ask if you want fries with that."

and how is such a job created.....

I don't know how to create a "make me comfortable without
requiring me to work for it" job and I don't know anyone
who is demanding such a job. You and Rick obviously travel
in different circles than I do.

Obama is right to stress the
need to re-think our whole economic engine, and that is not an overnight
approach.

Pumping government money into the economic engine is an
absolute necessity in the short term. Obama has the right
approach for both the short term and the long term in my
opinion.

--
Ken Fortenberry

On Apr 17, 4:57*pm, wrote:
On Fri, 17 Apr 2009 15:51:47 -0700 (PDT), DaveS wrote:
On Apr 17, 8:55*am, wrote:

Rick
You apparently live in a different bubble that I do. Name names?
Sorry, that would hurt people who I care about, but if you do not know
people who were a part of what turned out to be a big hustle, your
social and business circles are lots narrower than I assumed. Here are
just 4 of a range of examples taken from personal experience/knowledge
(with very little disguise), of people who were parts of the pack at 4
different levels.

1, A well meaning VP of a very large nation wide mortgage company,
offering neighbors the services of a very compliant appraiser to goose
up considerably the "valuation" of a property way over even the bubble
market values.

How well-meaning could he be, what with forcing his neighbors to defraud
lenders...? *And what was the VP of a very large nation wide mortgage company
doing living in, um, "an arguably vulnerable neighborhood?"



2. A younger person, running a 12 station phonebank *"hothouse"
operation, pushing home equity loans in arguably vulnerable
neighborhoods, in conjunction with "home improvement" scammers, as a
"cut-out" for nominally respectable banks.

Ah, yes, the dreaded home equity loan pusher... *Another diabolical criminal,
forcing people to sign things....and he must have been especially good, doing it
from a phone bank...

3. A person with no financial education or experience, *set up as a
"financial advisor" at a nominally respectable bank.

Well, ****, you shouldn't have taken the job...



4. An unlicensed person doing compliant loan appraisals for an estate
law firm in a major Florida metro. She once had a cert to "manage
condo associations" but as I recall even that was expired.

So she was, what, running out randomly appraising properties, hoping someone
would happen to drop in with a contract on those properties...?



In half of these situations the visible consumption levels were enough
to raise eyebrows considerably, *even in a very affluent area full of
software and biotech millionaires.

Yeah, they all sound like the real, er, "masters of the universe" types.
Frankly, after your failing to turn in the Border Patrol slave-runner, I think
you owe it to the US to turn these powerful criminals, who are undoubtedly
responsible for the current economic "mess," over to the proper authorities...

In reality, the latter three sound like "Joe Wal Mart" types (the VP could be,
too) that simply chose to prey on their fellow citizen. *As for the VP, he and
his neighbors sound like typical middle-class folks who want to skirt things
until the **** hits the fan, and then, they want to blame it on someone else. So
yeah, they ought to be allowed to fail.







A typical set up for the "nominally respectable" banks was to create
"sub prime" subsidiaries, then to use outfits like #2 above, to rope
in groups of loans, then sell them on in packages up stream to
securitizers etc. . WAMU had at least one sub like this that I know
of, and even Sears was playing that game, until the bad publicity it
got when the linkage was exposed and Sears was outed for practices
that preyed on elderly minorities primarily in the Midwest. I have
heard, but do not know for a fact, that all of the North Carolina
based big boy banks played that game at one time or another in recent
years.

Bottonline, there were ****ers and ****ees. And it is disingenuous to
pretend that in the absence of regulations it is not relatively easy
for even people with normal ethics, to become part of the predatory
system that lives on the blood of "Joe Walmart."

It is? *Why? *If people with "normal ethics" don't use 'em (absurdity of that
premise aside...), how do they have them?

Like the Enron
employees, they were "just doing their job."Then there are others who
seriously believe that preying on others is their right, almost duty,
as a superior being. With a few drinks some of these will tell you
that they see themselves as human wolves, helping evolution weed out
the weak. These last, and generations of selfish teens, made Ayn Rand
a best selling author.

It makes no difference if every bank in the world sets up a "screw everybody
that can fog up a mirror" department and hires the Hell's Banditos to manage
them. *Until someone voluntarily signs papers to buy a house they can't afford
or signs papers to receive money that they can't afford to pay back, it doesn't
do the banks much good. *And to say some bank somehow "tricked" them into
thinking that they could afford it is utter nonsense. *If that were the case,
they would have been "tricked" into all sorts of other schemes repeatedly
throughout their lives. *And yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, someone knows of a little
old lady who actually did get conned. *And I'd acknowledge that such can, did,
and does occasionally happen, but it is a rare thing, relative to the current
situation.

HTH,
R

Dave
Which former Fed Reserve Chairman is a follower of Ayn Rand?

As I've said in the past, I'm no fan of Greenspan, and if "we" must have a
single person to blame, he's as good a choice as any, but even heaping him with
a double portion still leaves quite a load to spread around...- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yeah, like I said, entirely different bubble. You do need to get out
in the real world more Richard.

Dave.

On Fri, 17 Apr 2009 17:35:24 -0500, Ken Fortenberry
wrote:

Tom Littleton wrote:
wrote:
Unfortunately, the repeated demands of the public to "FIX IT NOW!!!"
(meaning "make me comfortable without requiring me to work for it")
could make things much, much worse

agreed. Completely.

Absolute absurdity. And bull**** to boot. "Fix it now" means
"I want a job that doesn't require me to wear a paper hat and
ask if you want fries with that."

Exactly the problem. For some, even many, that type of job is all they are, or
ever will be, suited to do. I don't begrudge a $20K a year person for _wanting_
to live like someone who makes $100K, or someone who makes $100K to live like
someone who makes $1mil. But I have no sympathy if they try to and fail. People
of all levels need to learn to live within their means, and if that is being a
burger-flipper, so be it. Being a burger-flipper doesn't make them bad people
on any level, it just means what it means - some are suited to doctors, some
engineers, some teachers, and some are simply suited to be burger-flippers and
laborers. And what's wrong with that? It's honest work, pays enough to
survive, and at the end of it, I have more respect for a burger-flipper that
does a good job and lives within their means than I do for a "professional" who
doesn't.

And what is absolutely guaranteed to make things worse is *NOT*
fixing it *NOW* !

Uh-huh...

HTH,
R