why?

I hesitate to bring this up, figgering that there will be lots of
silly responses, but, I swear, they are serious questions that have
been haunting me for some time.

I have spent most of my life in the Rockies, Cascades, and places
there'bouts. I have caught trout of all kinds, sizes, and temperments
in an amazing variety of places. I have never, and don't ever expect
to, fish on "outfitter" waters, as I have my own personal anathema
toward the concept.

I have caught trout on every kind of fly imaginable, but the great
majority were caught on:
1. Caddis, usually elk hair in sizes from 8 to 14.
2. Lead wrapped at first, and bead head recently, fuzzy globs
(nymphs, I guess) from size 4 (believe it ! ) up to 14 or so.
3. Black gnat, grey dun, and Royal Wulff dries, from 12 to 16.
4. (later on) Wooley buggers and sculpins frim 8 to 12.

In my dotage, I fish mostly tail waters, as I no longer live in the
west. There are humungous (former world record brown, current state
record brookies, etc) fish there, but seem to feed only on nearly
invisible.......somethings. Even on the spring fed headwaters, the
same is generally true.
The youngsters, equipped with five grand worth of LLBean stuff, bobber
fish with #22 zebra's almost exclusively, and seem to catch all the
fish. I stumble across one dummy now and then, but when the wind is
up and I am forced to switch to UL spin tackle, I catch a number of
fish on my small, home made spoons.
And the local hillbillies are dragging them out one after the other on
power bait.

I an not jealous (not much, anyway) of what others do, as I have "done
it, pretty much, all". But I am "jealous" of what I, myself, used to
do. I think my leader choices, presentation, etc. are as good as
ever, but they do not like any of the stuff I have used for 60 or so
years. Zebras are itttttttttt !

If they can suck up power bait or get faked out by my small spoons,
why won't they like a yummy looking wet caddis? This isn't a case of
"just last week" or temporary choosiness; it has been happening for at
least eight years.

cheers

oz, confused

On 24-Apr-2009, MajorOz wrote:

The youngsters, equipped with five grand worth of LLBean stuff, bobber
fish with #22 zebra's almost exclusively, and seem to catch all the
fish.


On 24-Apr-2009, MajorOz wrote:

The youngsters, equipped with five grand worth of LLBean stuff, bobber
fish with #22 zebra's almost exclusively, and seem to catch all the
fish.

I can no longer use anything under a size 16 maybe 18 but size 22 - Not for
a long time!
It ****es me off as I fumble around trying to tie a fly on that I cannot
even see anymore.
Sometimes on a trip I may even take alon a young punk or two as I have no
pride in asking for to help.
Its better than fumbling and groping around for 20 minutes

When I fished for stripers in NH a
I hated baiting an eel - Yuck!
But it is the best bait.
They wrap around your arm as you pop the hook thru them
Which was my original reason to switch to ff only
I caught less fish - but I did not care

The fun is in the experience and surroundings anyway - at least for me.

Fred

MajorOz wrote:
I hesitate to bring this up, figgering that there will be lots of
silly responses, but, I swear, they are serious questions that have
been haunting me for some time. ...

If you're fishing the Arkansas tailwaters beneath Bull Shoals and
Norfork (and that's what it sounds like to me), fuhgedaboudit. You
ain't never gonna have real trout fishing there because there ain't
any real trout there. Tailwater fishing is, by definition, phony
baloney trout fishing. I spent almost six years thinking there must
be a solution before I gave up. You may as well go to Montauk or
Bennett Springs and flail the water with Purina trout chow "wooly
buggers".

The only halfway decent, semi-approaching, real trout fishing in
Missouri/Arkansas is on the Missouri Blue Ribbon streams. Several
of us on roff have fished the Eleven Point between Greers and
Turner Mill. You should be able to Google up the TRs.

http://mdc.mo.gov/fish/sport/trout/areas.htm

--
Ken Fortenberry

"MajorOz" wrote




I have spent most of my life in the Rockies, Cascades, and places
there'bouts. I have caught trout of all kinds, sizes, and temperments
in an amazing variety of places.



I don't know the answer to your question (s) but offer some things that come
to my mind

A) Natural food forms depend on habitat ... doh. Most Western freestone
rivers, like those of your past, have a huge variety of same .. from big
salmon fly sized holes between big rocks to tiny niches, cozy to a midge, in
small gravel and sandy silt. They also have big temperature variationsa
over a season. A wide variety of different bugs is therefore normal and one
of the joys of Western living ;-)

B) Many tailwaters are in valleys, below where big rocks naturally exist, so
the bottom is very uniform. Nearly all tailwaters run at very consistent
temperatures .. thus further restricting variety

C) Cold water and small bug 'homes' are ideal for .... midges ... cold
water and small gravel are nearly always the norm on tailwaters too far down
the system to have ever been trout habitat before the dam.


D) Fish 'strike' spoons for reasons other than 'eating' Powerbait ..
stinks .. I bet a caddis shaped, and sized, stinky fly would work fine G
... we could call it a ...um ... ROFF Special ... bent caddis hook, green
PowerBait formed in shape of caddis pupa, rib of silver wire, soft hackle
.... G



Anyway, Western tailwaters I fish that have structure of varied size and a
decent variation of water temps over the season, have a wide variety of
bugs. Places I fish that have limited variety of bottom structure and
always very cold water ( whether tailwater or spring creek ) have very
limited types of bugs but usually large quantity of those few types.

If you want to catch a fish because he takes your fly believing it is a
natural food form, those latter places demand, usually, small flies .. such
as the Zebra. Fish may 'hit' something that irritates them or 'taste'
something that smells good but is new, they are far less likely to 'taste'
something that doesn't look like anything they normally feed on, and smells
like head cement.

Larry L ( who knows nothing but finds ROFF a perfect place to express that
degree of knowledge ....... and fit right in :-)

"MajorOz" wrote

I catch a number of
fish on my small, home made spoons.



a former ROFF regular, now reformed, recently pointed me at this fly

http://www.sal****erflies.com/gummyminnow.html


"tying" instructions

http://www.orvis.com/detail.asp?subj...roup_id&bhcp=1


bet it would fish as well as the spoons !! ?? ( in trout sizes )

On Apr 24, 2:26*pm, Ken Fortenberry
wrote:
MajorOz wrote:
I hesitate to bring this up, figgering that there will be lots of
silly responses, but, I swear, they are serious questions that have
been haunting me for some time. ...

If you're fishing the Arkansas tailwaters beneath Bull Shoals and
Norfork (and that's what it sounds like to me), fuhgedaboudit. You
ain't never gonna have real trout fishing there because there ain't
any real trout there. Tailwater fishing is, by definition, phony
baloney trout fishing. I spent almost six years thinking there must
be a solution before I gave up. You may as well go to Montauk or
Bennett Springs and flail the water with Purina trout chow "wooly
buggers".

The only halfway decent, semi-approaching, real trout fishing in
Missouri/Arkansas is on the Missouri Blue Ribbon streams. Several
of us on roff have fished the Eleven Point between Greers and
Turner Mill. You should be able to Google up the TRs.

Thank you. Haven't tried the Eleven Point, but mean to, soon. And
you are correct. NorthFork, below Norfolk Dam is where most of the
frustration takes place -- and Tanneycomo. The only place I have
found the even comes close to the "old stuff" is way below Montauk.

But I will keep looking.

And I cry each time I go back to the mountains. The South Platte has
been totally *******ized into one huge "pay lake". Even some of my
old Wyoming rivers are now roped off. I guard, to the death, those
places, like the Snowys and Blues, the still feel classic.

cheers

oz, who had trouble wading/casting and breathing at the same time at
10K+ ft last Aug near Independence Pass.

On Apr 24, 3:09*pm, MajorOz wrote:
On Apr 24, 2:26*pm, Ken Fortenberry



wrote:
MajorOz wrote:
I hesitate to bring this up, figgering that there will be lots of
silly responses, but, I swear, they are serious questions that have
been haunting me for some time. ...

If you're fishing the Arkansas tailwaters beneath Bull Shoals and
Norfork (and that's what it sounds like to me), fuhgedaboudit. You
ain't never gonna have real trout fishing there because there ain't
any real trout there. Tailwater fishing is, by definition, phony
baloney trout fishing. I spent almost six years thinking there must
be a solution before I gave up. You may as well go to Montauk or
Bennett Springs and flail the water with Purina trout chow "wooly
buggers".

The only halfway decent, semi-approaching, real trout fishing in
Missouri/Arkansas is on the Missouri Blue Ribbon streams. Several
of us on roff have fished the Eleven Point between Greers and
Turner Mill. You should be able to Google up the TRs.

Thank you. *Haven't tried the Eleven Point, but mean to, soon. * And
you are correct. *NorthFork, below Norfolk Dam is where most of the
frustration takes place -- and Tanneycomo. * The only place I have
found the even comes close to the "old stuff" is way below Montauk.

But I will keep looking.

And I cry each time I go back to the mountains. *The South Platte has
been totally *******ized into one huge "pay lake". * Even some of my
old Wyoming rivers are now roped off. *I guard, to the death, those
places, like the Snowys and Blues, the still feel classic.

cheers

oz, who had trouble wading/casting and breathing at the same time at
10K+ ft last Aug near Independence Pass.

There are many streams in Missouri that offer the kind of fishing you
are looking for. You will not often catch big fish and truthfully,
you will spend a lot of time experimenting on these streams before you
experience a great deal of success. I don't know where you are in MO
or AR, but a few suggestions are Blue Springs Creek, Little Piney
Creek, Capps Creek, and Crane Creek. The Eleven Point is fine and so
are parts of the Current and Meramec.

I have much in common with your background...I was born in CO, raised
in Alaska, and now reside in MO as my wife is from this area. Between
the time we left Alaska and moved to Missouri, we spent 6 years just
west of Steamboat Springs.

We won't find western stream fly fishing around here, but we can still
come pretty close. I have some basic info on these places I mentioned
and some others at http://family-outdoors.com/Missouri_Trout_Fishing.html

"MajorOz" wrote in message
...
On Apr 24, 2:26 pm, Ken Fortenberry
wrote:
MajorOz wrote:
I hesitate to bring this up, figgering that there will be lots of
silly responses, but, I swear, they are serious questions that have
been haunting me for some time. ...

If you're fishing the Arkansas tailwaters beneath Bull Shoals and
Norfork (and that's what it sounds like to me), fuhgedaboudit. You
ain't never gonna have real trout fishing there because there ain't
any real trout there. Tailwater fishing is, by definition, phony
baloney trout fishing. I spent almost six years thinking there must
be a solution before I gave up. You may as well go to Montauk or
Bennett Springs and flail the water with Purina trout chow "wooly
buggers".

The only halfway decent, semi-approaching, real trout fishing in
Missouri/Arkansas is on the Missouri Blue Ribbon streams. Several
of us on roff have fished the Eleven Point between Greers and
Turner Mill. You should be able to Google up the TRs.

Thank you. Haven't tried the Eleven Point, but mean to, soon. And
you are correct. NorthFork, below Norfolk Dam is where most of the
frustration takes place -- and Tanneycomo. The only place I have
found the even comes close to the "old stuff" is way below Montauk.

But I will keep looking.

And I cry each time I go back to the mountains. The South Platte has
been totally *******ized into one huge "pay lake". Even some of my
old Wyoming rivers are now roped off. I guard, to the death, those
places, like the Snowys and Blues, the still feel classic.

cheers

oz, who had trouble wading/casting and breathing at the same time at
10K+ ft last Aug near Independence Pass.

If you get an answer that works post it. Same thing on the Pit River out of
Burney, CA. I have been in the artificial only areas, and those who not the
law, are fishing with worms and powerbait, racking up the fish. I look at
the fish zooming around below the Pit power houses, and see them slurping up
something, but hit a fly? Noooooo. Even a tiny size fly I can hardly get
tied on anymore. Nooooo.

Good post. Good questions.
Here in Montana tailwater fishing is different than every where else.
The fish seem to want itty bitty bugs longer (bigger older fish still
want to eat bugs)
and they get hammered, so you have to proceed slowly, with stealth.

But those same fish will still hit spinning lures and big stearmers,
especially on cloudy days. Stuff that stinks always works. Although
I must say I think bait fishing can be tough on bright sunny days too.
At least that's what I gather from bait fishing gossip. Haven't
actually
fished with bait in a long time.

So maybe these have to be seen as different behavior patterns.
Chasing a spoon is different response that eating invertibrate drift.
So it cannot be compared. In the invertibrate drift context, a #22
zebra midge (in a tailwater) is more spot on than a #14 fuzzball.

I read in a academic fisheries paper, published by a post doc PHD
at the Florida Marine Institute, that big bonefish graduate from small
crustacea to eating mostly Toadfish (like sal****er sculpins) over a
certain
size threshold. Large shrimp flies don't work as well as smaller ones
sometimes.
But guys who toss 4 and 5" jig head twister tails sometimes catch a
half
a dozen bonefish an hour. So.....even bonefish prefer small and big,
but don't like medium.

MajorOz wrote:
Ken Fortenberry wrote:
MajorOz wrote:
I hesitate to bring this up, figgering that there will be lots of
silly responses, but, I swear, they are serious questions that have
been haunting me for some time. ...
If you're fishing the Arkansas tailwaters beneath Bull Shoals and
Norfork (and that's what it sounds like to me), fuhgedaboudit. You
ain't never gonna have real trout fishing there because there ain't
any real trout there. Tailwater fishing is, by definition, phony
baloney trout fishing. I spent almost six years thinking there must
be a solution before I gave up. You may as well go to Montauk or
Bennett Springs and flail the water with Purina trout chow "wooly
buggers".

The only halfway decent, semi-approaching, real trout fishing in
Missouri/Arkansas is on the Missouri Blue Ribbon streams. Several
of us on roff have fished the Eleven Point between Greers and
Turner Mill. You should be able to Google up the TRs.

Thank you. Haven't tried the Eleven Point, but mean to, soon. And
you are correct. NorthFork, below Norfolk Dam is where most of the
frustration takes place -- and Tanneycomo. ...

When I fished below Norfork it was always in the fall. I noticed
that the best guides were out of the Orvis shop in Springfield, Mo.
To a man they always had their clients fishing sculpins. And they
were the most productive folks on the stream, so far as I could
tell.

I've fished seven of the nine Missouri Blue Ribbon streams and
they're better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick but my
advice is, Go North. The driftless area of Wisconsin isn't that
far away and it's well worth the drive for native, but small,
brookies. You do know that trout are not indigenous to Missouri
and that wherever you fish you're fishing for stockers ? Not
that there's anything wrong with that ...

--
Ken Fortenberry