Garlic and brining?

"Fred" wrote in message
...

I would like to know more anout cold smoing
Can you elaborate a bit - ?
I tried it w some sockeye salmon (lox) but then I was afraid it would be
undercooked or smoked so I smoked them as normal a for a litte less time
I would like to know more about and have more confidence in cold smokimg?

Vendors of smokers usually explain, e.g. see
http://www.bradleysmoker.com/faqs.asp
Generally hot smoking (at 150 deg. Fahr. or hotter) is
cooking for eating today and cold smoke (100 deg. F)
is for storage (a month in the fridge, a year if frozen.)
Cold smoking takes two or three times as much time.
My portable Abu smoker (size of a shoebox, burning
alcohol) cooks a fish or cheese sandwich in 20 min.
(No need to brine fish. Mixed salt and red pepper is
lightly sprinkled beforehand. The red pepper helps
you see what you are doing.) My Luhr Jensen smoker
hangs 4 to 8 whole sides (max. 16") where they are
smoked 7 hours for storage.

Recommended brine for cold smoke:
Brown sugar 0.25 lb.
Salt 1.25 lb.; we use coarse pickling salt
Lemon Juice 85 ml. = 85 c.c. = 3 fl. oz (at 29.5 c.c. ea.)
Garlic 3 or 4 cloves well mashed
Dill weed 3 tablespoons
Oregano ample pinch
Marjoram ample pinch
Water 15 cups (@8 oz.)

Time: max. one hour per (weighed) pound of fish.
Rinse afterwards under a running faucet and dry
overnight (hanging from a bulldog clip) before
smoking for several hours.

--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

On Tue, 8 Sep 2009 12:28:57 -0400, "Don Phillipson"
wrote:

"Fred" wrote in message
m...

I would like to know more anout cold smoing
Can you elaborate a bit - ?
I tried it w some sockeye salmon (lox) but then I was afraid it would be
undercooked or smoked so I smoked them as normal a for a litte less time
I would like to know more about and have more confidence in cold smokimg?

Vendors of smokers usually explain, e.g. see
http://www.bradleysmoker.com/faqs.asp
Generally hot smoking (at 150 deg. Fahr. or hotter) is
cooking for eating today and cold smoke (100 deg. F)
is for storage (a month in the fridge, a year if frozen.)
Cold smoking takes two or three times as much time.
My portable Abu smoker (size of a shoebox, burning
alcohol) cooks a fish or cheese sandwich in 20 min.
(No need to brine fish. Mixed salt and red pepper is
lightly sprinkled beforehand. The red pepper helps
you see what you are doing.) My Luhr Jensen smoker
hangs 4 to 8 whole sides (max. 16") where they are
smoked 7 hours for storage.

Recommended brine for cold smoke:
Brown sugar 0.25 lb.
Salt 1.25 lb.; we use coarse pickling salt
Lemon Juice 85 ml. = 85 c.c. = 3 fl. oz (at 29.5 c.c. ea.)
Garlic 3 or 4 cloves well mashed
Dill weed 3 tablespoons
Oregano ample pinch
Marjoram ample pinch
Water 15 cups (@8 oz.)

Time: max. one hour per (weighed) pound of fish.
Rinse afterwards under a running faucet and dry
overnight (hanging from a bulldog clip) before
smoking for several hours.

You seem to know what you want and how to do it - I am curious, though - have
you tried a lower cold temp for a longer time period for your "cold" smoking?
The reason I ask is that your temps seem a bit higher than what I'm used to
insofar as the general description of "hot" and "cold" smoking. If I understand
your premise hot = for eating immediately, that is what we do for things
like "BBQ" - pork ribs, brisket, etc. However, we tone it down a bit for things
like sausage, hams/tassos, or jerky, and even moreso for fish. I guess,
technically, I'm more accustomed to hot, warm, and cold smoking, with the warm
and cold being used to both flavor and preserve and the "hot" used for
"cooking." This, IME, is somewhat different than smoking as used as a
preservative method - "hot" and "cold" in general terminology and warm and cold
in my description above - that happens to taste good as a side benefit.

TC,
R

If all you want to know is how to properly cold smoke some fish, just
brine it,
use sawdust (or chips, but as small a pieces as you can get), keep the
temp of
the smoking chamber _low_ (under about 70-80 degrees), and let it smoke
for at
least 24 hours - longer is better, esp. for preservation rather than
taste.


On 8-Sep-2009, wrote:

Generally hot smoking (at 150 deg. Fahr. or hotter) is
cooking for eating today and cold smoke (100 deg. F)
is for storage (a month in the fridge, a year if frozen.)
Cold smoking takes two or three times as much time.
My portable Abu smoker (size of a shoebox, burning
alcohol) cooks a fish or cheese sandwich in 20 min.
(No need to brine fish. Mixed salt and red pepper is
lightly sprinkled beforehand. The red pepper helps
you see what you are doing.) My Luhr Jensen smoker
hangs 4 to 8 whole sides (max. 16") where they are
smoked 7 hours for storage.


We smoke for preservation and of course - taste
Some is eaten right away and at least half is frozen.

There seems to be a discrepancy in the temps and advice given from 80F to
100F
When we smoke We do several fish at a time - not less than 2
My inclination is to opt for the higher temps - for at least over 6-7 hrs as
I am wary of cold smoking due to health concerns


Fred

On Tue, 8 Sep 2009 18:03:26 GMT, "Fred" wrote:

If all you want to know is how to properly cold smoke some fish, just
brine it,
use sawdust (or chips, but as small a pieces as you can get), keep the
temp of
the smoking chamber _low_ (under about 70-80 degrees), and let it smoke
for at
least 24 hours - longer is better, esp. for preservation rather than
taste.


On 8-Sep-2009, wrote:

Generally hot smoking (at 150 deg. Fahr. or hotter) is
cooking for eating today and cold smoke (100 deg. F)
is for storage (a month in the fridge, a year if frozen.)
Cold smoking takes two or three times as much time.
My portable Abu smoker (size of a shoebox, burning
alcohol) cooks a fish or cheese sandwich in 20 min.
(No need to brine fish. Mixed salt and red pepper is
lightly sprinkled beforehand. The red pepper helps
you see what you are doing.) My Luhr Jensen smoker
hangs 4 to 8 whole sides (max. 16") where they are
smoked 7 hours for storage.


We smoke for preservation and of course - taste
Some is eaten right away and at least half is frozen.

There seems to be a discrepancy in the temps and advice given from 80F to
100F
When we smoke We do several fish at a time - not less than 2
My inclination is to opt for the higher temps - for at least over 6-7 hrs as
I am wary of cold smoking due to health concerns

What health concerns are you, um, concerned about? The entire process of
smoking fish, meat, etc. (the brining, smoking, etc.) has been in use for quite
a while, and if were not a safe and effective method, well, it would not have
been. This is not to say that you can do it any old way and have it work out,
only that if it is done properly, under sanitary conditions, and with
good-quality base ingredients, there should not be any health concerns for an
otherwise-healthy person.

As I said, the whole scientific aspect of preserving meats, fish, etc. fills up
text- and reference books, and if you are interested in the "whys" rather than
the "hows," there are a number of them out there. Again, I'm not being a
wiseass, just that minutiae of the whole process/processes is a fair amount of
information - try to imagine 50 typical posts each from Mike Connor and
Goatgang, but with real information. For me, it's like using an electrical
outlet - I generally understand the process, I understand the wiring, but
really, all I care about for the purposes of getting whatever electrical device
I'm attempting to use to work is that "plug it in, turn it on, it works..."

As to temps, keep in mind that temperature is not the only aspect of
preservation, and "preservation" in this context basically means "making this
stuff safe to eat at x point in time." For example, pancetta isn't smoked,
only cured and dried, whereas in the US, "bacon" is cured and smoked and
"country ham" is cured, smoked, dried, etc. and mold growth on the surface is
part of it. All are various methods of making pig parts safe to store and eat
at some future time. As to fish, look to things like gravlax, lox, "Scottish"
smoked salmon, etc. for a range of curing/smoking/preserving methods. Further,
keep in mind that "brine"/"brining" does not mean just "salt and water" and what
I suspect you call "cooking" is really the denaturing of protein via heat
(only). While "heat" can and does certainly kill things that could make one
sick, it is not the only way to achieve that goal - look at sashimi (_extreme_
cold in modern preparation/"preserving" - no, a typical home freezer won't do
it), ceviche (denaturing in an acidic "brine," which is why it is opaque), etc.
So, basically, there are a number of methods that can be used and/or combined to
make the food "healthy" - or really, "safe" to consume. I think you'll find
that while the taste aspect is, for many, a welcome side-benefit, the "safe to
eat" aspect is what got this or that process into long-term usage.

If all else fails, I suppose you could mix up some bleach and water in a
Gatorade bottle...

TC,
R


Fred

On 8-Sep-2009, wrote:

try to imagine 50 typical posts each from Mike Connor and
Goatgang, but with real information. For me, it's like using an
electrical
outlet - I generally understand the process, I understand the wiring, but
really, all I care about for the purposes of getting whatever electrical
device
I'm attempting to use to work is that "plug it in, turn it on, it
works..."

No particular health concerns - Just a fear of under cooking or curing but
with the wonderful analogy of the posters above I may choose food poisining
and death.

Thanks
Fred

On Sep 8, 4:25*pm, "Fred" wrote:
On *8-Sep-2009, wrote:

*try to imagine 50 typical posts each from Mike Connor and
Goatgang, but with real information. *For me, it's like using an
electrical
outlet - I generally understand the process, I understand the wiring, but
really, all I care about for the purposes of getting whatever electrical
device
I'm attempting to use to work is that "plug it in, turn it on, it
works..."

No particular health concerns - Just a fear of under cooking or curing but
with the wonderful analogy of the posters above I may choose food poisining
and death.

Thanks
Fred

So, if there are no health concerns, what promps your fear of under
cooking or curing?

g.
who, generally, isn't much afraid of things that pose no risks.

On Sep 8, 3:00*pm, wrote:
On Tue, 8 Sep 2009 18:03:26 GMT, "Fred" wrote:
If all you want to know is how to properly cold smoke some fish, just
brine it,
use sawdust (or chips, but as small a pieces as you can get), keep the
temp of
the smoking chamber _low_ (under about 70-80 degrees), and let it smoke
for at
least 24 hours - longer is better, esp. for preservation rather than
taste.

On *8-Sep-2009, wrote:

Generally hot smoking (at 150 deg. Fahr. or hotter) is
cooking for eating today and cold smoke (100 deg. F)
is for storage (a month in the fridge, a year if frozen.)
Cold smoking takes two or three times as much time.
My portable Abu smoker (size of a shoebox, burning
alcohol) cooks a fish or cheese sandwich in 20 min.
(No need to brine fish. *Mixed salt and red pepper is
lightly sprinkled beforehand. *The red pepper helps
you see what you are doing.) * My Luhr Jensen smoker
hangs 4 to 8 whole sides (max. 16") where they are
smoked 7 hours for storage.

We smoke for preservation and of course - taste
Some is eaten right away and at least half is frozen.

There seems to be a discrepancy in the temps and advice given from 80F to
100F
When we *smoke We do several fish at a time - not less than 2
My inclination is to opt for the higher temps - for at least over 6-7 hrs as
I am wary of cold smoking due to health concerns

What health concerns are you, um, concerned about? *The entire process of
smoking fish, meat, etc. (the brining, smoking, etc.) has been in use for quite
a while, and if were not a safe and effective method, well, it would not have
been. *This is not to say that you can do it any old way and have it work out,
only that if it is done properly, under sanitary conditions, and with
good-quality base ingredients, there should not be any health concerns for an
otherwise-healthy person.

As I said, the whole scientific aspect of preserving meats, fish, etc. fills up
text- and reference books, and if you are interested in the "whys" rather than
the "hows," there are a number of them out there. *Again, I'm not being a
wiseass, just that minutiae of the whole process/processes is a fair amount of
information - try to imagine 50 typical posts each from Mike Connor and
Goatgang, but with real information. *For me, it's like using an electrical
outlet - I generally understand the process, I understand the wiring, but
really, all I care about for the purposes of getting whatever electrical device
I'm attempting to use to work is that "plug it in, turn it on, it works...."

As to temps, keep in mind that temperature is not the only aspect of
preservation, and "preservation" in this context basically means "making this
stuff safe to eat at x point in time." *For example, pancetta isn't smoked,
only cured and dried, whereas in the US, "bacon" is cured and smoked and
"country ham" is cured, smoked, dried, etc. and mold growth on the surface is
part of it. *All are various methods of making pig parts safe to store and eat
at some future time. *As to fish, look to things like gravlax, lox, "Scottish"
smoked salmon, etc. for a range of curing/smoking/preserving methods. *Further,
keep in mind that "brine"/"brining" does not mean just "salt and water" and what
I suspect you call "cooking" is really the denaturing of protein via heat
(only). *While "heat" can and does certainly kill things that could make one
sick, it is not the only way to achieve that goal - look at sashimi (_extreme_
cold in modern preparation/"preserving" - no, a typical home freezer won't do
it), ceviche (denaturing in an acidic "brine," which is why it is opaque), etc.
So, basically, there are a number of methods that can be used and/or combined to
make the food "healthy" - or really, "safe" to consume. *I think you'll find
that while the taste aspect is, for many, a welcome side-benefit, the "safe to
eat" aspect is what got this or that process into long-term usage.

If all else fails, I suppose you could mix up some bleach and water in a
Gatorade bottle...

TC,
R

Idiot.

g.

wrote in message
...

You seem to know what you want and how to do it - I am curious, though -
have
you tried a lower cold temp for a longer time period for your "cold"
smoking?

Short answer is that my Luhr Jensen (is 30 years old and) has
no temperature control. The more recent Bradley smoker has
this (has two selectable burners for cold and hot smoke.)

The traditional way of assuring cold smoke was:
smoke chamber = anything convenient (e.g. a discarded
fridge, with holes where appropriate;
a firepit several feet distant,
a pipe from firepit to smoke chamber on the surface (or
buried to get even cooler),
a thermometer.

This requires skill in building and maintaining for several
hours the right size of fire in the firepit. Electric hotplate
smokers need no such skill. I have not seen a traditional
backyard smoker for decades. Some big BBQs advertise
that they can smoke but I never needed to test this.

(My first trial of smoking was about 1974, in a huge cardboard
carton over a hibachi. I forget how the fish was supported.
My first LJ smoker meant more and better smoking with
intinitely less trouble.)
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

On Tue, 8 Sep 2009 17:30:24 -0400, "Don Phillipson"
wrote:

wrote in message
.. .

You seem to know what you want and how to do it - I am curious, though -
have
you tried a lower cold temp for a longer time period for your "cold"
smoking?

Short answer is that my Luhr Jensen (is 30 years old and) has
no temperature control. The more recent Bradley smoker has
this (has two selectable burners for cold and hot smoke.)

The traditional way of assuring cold smoke was:
smoke chamber = anything convenient (e.g. a discarded
fridge, with holes where appropriate;
a firepit several feet distant,
a pipe from firepit to smoke chamber on the surface (or
buried to get even cooler),
a thermometer.

This requires skill in building and maintaining for several
hours the right size of fire in the firepit. Electric hotplate
smokers need no such skill. I have not seen a traditional
backyard smoker for decades. Some big BBQs advertise
that they can smoke but I never needed to test this.

(My first trial of smoking was about 1974, in a huge cardboard
carton over a hibachi. I forget how the fish was supported.
My first LJ smoker meant more and better smoking with
intinitely less trouble.)

Much of early "cold" smoking techniques took advantage of the cooler temps,
either seasonal or locational, to "cold" smoke. In the US, "country hams" are
started in the fall for this reason. For cold smoking, the less insulation the
better or the better the vessel can shed heat, the easier the cold smoking. A
couple of clean metal garbage cans or food-safe clean 55-gallon drums and some
vent pipe, and you've got a cold or warm smoker, and the drums will also make a
good "hot" smoker/BBQ. An electric hot plate is useful for cold or warm
smoking, but a separate fire from which you can transfer coals will also work.
Obviously, you can't properly cold smoke if it's 105F in the shade (air temp)
without some cooling system. But if it's 50-60F, it's not hard at all to
maintain 80ish in the smoker. If you've never tried doing it yourself, IMO, for
someone who knows what they are doing, it's well worth trying. If you've had
very thinly sliced smoked salmon that looks sorta "raw," and you like it, that's
what "cold" smoking will produce (under about 80F or so - at about 100F or so,
you've started "cooking"). If it flakes or "whitens" _at all_, the "cooking"
process has begun (and while the flaking isn't a result, directly, of the
"cooking"/denaturing of the protein - it's the collegen breaking down - it's an
"at-a-glance" way to know that you're hot smoking rather than cold smoking
fish). And for others that may be following along, the previously-mentioned
"brining" is an intergral part of this process.

As an aside, a perfect example of what we do with "warm smoke" is using one of
the upright "Brinkmann" type smokers - get some coals from the fire and put them
in the pan in the smoker. Add a double-handful of hickory nuts and a few
hickory sticks. Place some "country ribs" or a Boston butt/uncured "picnic ham"
on the upper rack, put the drip pan in-between, shut the door, and don't touch
for a few hours. It'll get to about 120-130F, tops, esp. in the fall. It is
strictly a "taste" application and it'll need some further "heat cooking," but
damn, it sure is good.

TC,
R

On Sep 8, 6:20*pm, wrote:


Much of early "cold" smoking techniques took advantage of the cooler temps,
either seasonal or locational, to "cold" smoke. *In the US, "country hams" are
started in the fall for this reason.

Abject nonsense. Smaoking has traditionally been done in the fall
because those doing the smoking were taking advantage of the fact that
meat animals (whether domestic or wild) were fattened on the bounty of
the late summer. Controlling a small contained fire isn't as
difficult as those who have never mastered it suppose.....regardless
of time of year.

For cold smoking, the less insulation the
better or the better the vessel can shed heat, the easier the cold smoking. *A
couple of clean metal garbage cans or food-safe clean 55-gallon drums and some
vent pipe, and you've got a cold or warm smoker, and the drums will also make a
good "hot" smoker/BBQ. *An electric hot plate is useful for cold or warm
smoking, but a separate fire from which you can transfer coals will also work.
Obviously, you can't properly cold smoke if it's 105F in the shade (air temp)
without some cooling system. *But if it's 50-60F, it's not hard at all to
maintain 80ish in the smoker. *If you've never tried doing it yourself, IMO, for
someone who knows what they are doing, it's well worth trying. *If you've had
very thinly sliced smoked salmon that looks sorta "raw," and you like it, that's
what "cold" smoking will produce (under about 80F or so - at about 100F or so,
you've started "cooking"). *If it flakes or "whitens" _at all_, the "cooking"
process has begun (and while the flaking isn't a result, directly, of the
"cooking"/denaturing of the protein - it's the collegen breaking down - it's an
"at-a-glance" way to know that you're hot smoking rather than cold smoking
fish). *And for others that may be following along, the previously-mentioned
"brining" is an intergral part of this process.

As an aside, a perfect example of what we do with "warm smoke" is using one of
the upright "Brinkmann" type smokers - get some coals from the fire and put them
in the pan in the smoker. *Add a double-handful of hickory nuts and a few
hickory sticks. *Place some "country ribs" or a Boston butt/uncured "picnic ham"
on the upper rack, put the drip pan in-between, shut the door, and don't touch
for a few hours. *It'll get to about 120-130F, tops, esp. in the fall. *It is
strictly a "taste" application and it'll need some further "heat cooking," but
damn, it sure is good.

TC,
R-

Good god, you are stupid.

g.